Is the Arma Communtiy getting too obsessed with legal issuse such as EULA's ?

[Sealife 22]

If the person isn't claiming that PR officially sponsors their modification then they can't really go after damage to their name or brand

But if there EULA /Readme etc says by downloading you will abide by there ideology that there missions /mod is given for free as long as its played on a PR sanctioned server , are you not then by saying anyone can make missions with there work and host on there own server s, telling them to use a product in a manner different than that which is was given for free I>E using the downloaded content for other purposes than that it was made for ( use on a PR server with PR missions ) ?

I see the historical logic about how OFP arma community works , But PR really arent setting a presdence here i can think of other mods/gameplay modes that have already tried this , unfortunately they closed there threads too and 1000 s play and wite somehere else.

I hope your right or people just gonna send the lawyers to you lol and quote your post ;)

[noubernou 77]

To put in perspective, the PR EULA is as absurd as stating in the ACRE EULA that you have to use ACRE while standing on your head and if you do not stand on your head we will sue you for a bajillion dollars because standing on your head is what makes ACRE cooler than other mods.

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

But if there EULA /Readme etc says by downloading you will abide by there ideology that there missions /mod is given for free as long as its played on a PR sanctioned server , are you not then by saying anyone can make missions with there work and host on there own server s, telling them to use a product in a manner different than that which is was given for free I>E using the downloaded content for other purposes than that it was made for ( use on a PR server with PR missions ) ?

I see the historical logic about how OFP arma community works , But PR really arent setting a presdence here i can think of other mods/gameplay modes that have already tried this , unfortunately they closed there threads too and 1000 s play and wite somehere else.

I hope your right or people just gonna send the lawyers to you lol and quote your post ;)

PR is an ArmA2 mod. They cant tell you how to play ArmA2. That is as simple as I can state it. Only BIS really has the authority to do that, and even then there is only a few strict areas that are really enforceable (for example commercial or military use, since that is considered a profit creating operation using their copyrighted material, and which they have specific content and licenses to cover that, aka VBS2).

[hellfire257 3]

To put in perspective, the PR EULA is as absurd as stating in the ACRE EULA that you have to use ACRE while standing on your head and if you do not stand on your head we will sue you for a bajillion dollars because standing on your head is what makes ACRE cooler than other mods.

I think that is the best way to describe it, lol. Well said.

[abs 2]

To put in perspective, the PR EULA is as absurd as stating in the ACRE EULA that you have to use ACRE while standing on your head and if you do not stand on your head we will sue you for a bajillion dollars because standing on your head is what makes ACRE cooler than other mods.

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

PR is an ArmA2 mod. They cant tell you how to play ArmA2. That is as simple as I can state it. Only BIS really has the authority to do that, and even then there is only a few strict areas that are really enforceable (for example commercial or military use, since that is considered a profit creating operation using their copyrighted material, and which they have specific content and licenses to cover that, aka VBS2).

I'm with you on all that, 100%; I think it's ridiculous to state how you can play or can't play with created addons. But PuFu said that there is nothing in the BIS EULA that says that they can not say just that. If that's the case, then as much as I dislike it, there's nothing anyone can do.

Abs

[noubernou 77]

I'm with you on all that, 100%; I think it's ridiculous to state how you can play or can't play with created addons. But PuFu said that there is nothing in the BIS EULA that says that they can not say just that. If that's the case, then as much as I dislike it, there's nothing anyone can do.

Abs

It doesn't matter if BIS says anything or not. :bored:

[max power 21]

In the US there are laws against reverse engineering. Look at the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. That being said, I never said anything about reverse engineering and pretty much everything else is fair game and a lot of it falls under fair use and a number of other ideas.

I'm basing this argument on the presumption that you would need to reverse engineer PR in order to use their addons in the editor. I'm by far not a missions editing expert (not even a novice), so bear that in mind.

What I am saying that PR cant tell you what you can and can not do with their product in terms of playing it with modifications or not. They have no legal precedent and no legal jurisdiction to make these agreements enforceable.

I don't know if they were saying that if you run PR with other PBOs loaded that they would sue you. That's not what I got from the thread. edit: I guess that's what they were saying on the public server side.

Seriously, in the end, what are they going to sue you for, PR that is? You host up a server that runs PR, that they gave to you for free, and it runs another modification for whatever, or it runs custom missions? What damages could they seek, realistically. They make no profit off of this (they can't according to the EULA of BIS ;)) so there is no monetary damages. If the person isn't claiming that PR officially sponsors their modification then they can't really go after damage to their name or brand (again also which would be insane, since they do not/can not make money off of it)... So what do they go after?

Like I said, it's possible that they have made the mod so you must reverse engineer it to make new missions for it. There are a lot of unknowns here, including the actual EULA that we're discussing. Regarding the discussion from the other thread about consequences: A lot of law is sabre rattling. They're just making you aware that they may pursue this option if you choose to violate their EULA. The realism of that statement vs. the potential consequences is for you to consider.

If BIS is trying to imply agreements through PR for us to use the BAF content in PR then that is a whole other ball game, one that is probably even more tricky and unenforceable. They can claim copyright, that is fine, but using the product unmodified in a capacity that is allowed by default is hardly something that could be restricted. :rolleyes:

I don't know if BIS is implying anything. The only statement I've seen from BIS is that, IIRC (and my recollection is hazy) is that they had come to an agreement with PR to use that content. The same restrictions that any BIS software comes with should apply. I don't think BIS mentioned anything about consequences for making missions.

I'm not sure what you mean by modified. I think you're saying without other mods or other pbos loaded (on a public server, I suppose). Maybe they are making claims about what is in the computer's memory? I don't know. I have heard of EULAs that consider what's in the RAM in the past. I think it had to do with WOW's anti cheat software or something like that.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Max Power

[Sealife 22]

PR is an ArmA2 mod. They cant tell you how to play ArmA2. That is as simple as I can state it. Only BIS really has the authority to do that, and even then there is only a few strict areas that are really enforceable (for example commercial or military use, since that is considered a profit creating operation using their copyrighted material, and which they have specific content and licenses to cover that, aka VBS2).

Thanks for clarification , so its viewed as an Arma2 mod no matter what anybody writes in there EULA , as long as they dont modify it they can dowhatever they want inside the Arma2 /oa engine i think your saying , sounds sensible , i think your original harshness ( or appeared ) was clouding my ability to see your angle :0

thankyou

[dunnobe 10]

"Other coming in from elsewhere"

"alien and it isn't what this community is about"

"such an attitude shouldn't be welcome here"

You seem to be the one with an attitude. You're not THE community, neither do you respresent it. Hell, the PR dev team is part of the community themselves so what are you talking about? They're not coming in from somewhere else, they've always been making stuff for Arma. The PR:ArmA team is not the same dev team as the BF2 PR team.

Why would you want to host your own missions if they do everything for you?

My wish and the one from a lot of others is that there's people online every time of the day so I can fully enjoy my game instead of having to wait untill some community organizes an event for me to get some rejoice. We don't want a divided PR community.

If you don't agree with them, DONT PLAY. Nobody will miss you on the servers.

(I do agree it's a bit cheap of them to 'copy' the tactical hud and I had wished for move innovation, but ok, it's their first release. We'll see how it plays.)

Edited August 26, 2011 by dunnobe

[max power 21]

What would you want to host your own missions if they do everything for you?

Mission makers don't need to justify themselves to you.

[noubernou 77]

I'm basing this argument on the presumption that you would need to reverse engineer PR in order to use their addons in the editor. I'm by far not a missions editing expert (not even a novice), so bear that in mind.

I don't know if they were saying that if you run PR with other PBOs loaded that they would sue you. That's not what I got from the thread. edit: I guess that's what they were saying on the public server side.

Like I said, it's possible that they have made the mod so you must reverse engineer it to make new missions for it. There are a lot of unknowns here, including the actual EULA that we're discussing. Regarding the discussion from the other thread about consequences: A lot of law is sabre rattling. They're just making you aware that they may pursue this option if you choose to violate their EULA. The realism of that statement vs. the potential consequences is for you to consider.

I don't know if BIS is implying anything. The only statement I've seen from BIS is that, IIRC (and my recollection is hazy) is that they had come to an agreement with PR to use that content. The same restrictions that any BIS software comes with should apply. I don't think BIS mentioned anything about consequences for making missions.

I'm not sure what you mean by modified. I think you're saying without other mods or other pbos loaded (on a public server, I suppose). Maybe they are making claims about what is in the computer's memory? I don't know. I have heard of EULAs that consider what's in the RAM in the past. I think it had to do with WOW's anti cheat software or something like that.

If they 100% disable access to the mission editor (which they cant really do since there is a built in hotkey to get into the 3D one at least) and made all the vehicles marked as private so they dont show up in the editor, then yea, you'd technically have to have some sort of inside knowledge of the class names to make missions, which, unless they release them, would have to come from DePBOing the content (well there are otherwise that technically could get around having to do DePBO stuff).

It still does not deny the fact that it is a mod, made by a group unassociated with BIS (besides BIS saying hey you can use some of our models), not distributed by BIS, and not sold by BIS. There is nothing they can say that can prevent you from using ArmA2 with PR and anything else altogether at once, just like you could mix and match any other mod excluding PR.

Also, the reason things like WoW have crazy EULA and TOS is so that they can consider that part of a contract to use a service that they provide and you need to use their games. They word them in ways that allow them to deny you access to the services if you violate their terms of use. They have the right to do that since you are consuming a service (its like being kicked out of a theater for talking during a movie, where as PR is attempting to do something akin to you purchasing a DVD, taking it home, watching it in the comfort of your own home, and saying you cant talk during the showing of their DVD).

PR does not provide a service. If PR released their mod today and shut down tomorrow, nothing would be stopping people from continuing to play PR. PR does not have a monetary involvement in your use of their content once it has left their hands. You are not a continuous consumer of their services or products after you have downloaded PR, so the comparison to a WoW EULA/TOS is a bit off.

[dunnobe 10]

They can bash the PR crew, but don't have to justify themselves?

Great way of debating.

The City Life 2 RPG team and community are also very protective about the work they have achieved as they don't want anybody to copy their RPG, I understand that very well. I heard Armatec did a good job encrypting everything so it is hard to steal it.

Edited August 26, 2011 by dunnobe

[noubernou 77]

They can bash the PR crew, but don't have to justify themselves?

Great way of debating.

If you didn't understand what was being implied there then you need to re-read it.

Mission makers dont have to justify why they want to make missions for PR. The simple logical conclusion your brain could make is "because they like to make missions."

[Gorkounov 10]

I think we should just play the mod and then we complain. These restrictions are to prevent public servers from adding other add ons. In case your wondering, UK Force has stated that if a server doesn't have a license, then the client will not be able to play it.

The server issue, is covered using a server whitelist on our realitymod host, that will cross reference with the client. Meaning if a client attempts to join a non official PR server (ie not on the whitelist), the screen will black out and he will be unable to join.

In BF2 PR this worked greatly as before not many servers had strong team play, and lots of servers were customized and simply not the PR feel. I want to play a game knowing that all I need is PR and knowing that all servers will have great teamwork. In PRBF2, I can be a commander and use UAV to coordinate all the (human) squads to take out mortar positions and get a BTR or supplies to a squad who requests it. I can also be cobra pilot and coordinate laser targets with officers and commander and eliminate the threat to advance and secure th city.

I'm probably unlucky but when I go to Public ARMA servers, I don't seem to get team play. At the start of joining I select my position and squad, after what do I see. People just taking the jets and bombing the enemy positions covered in friendlies and not receiving any clearance from a CO. That's one example. Another is when I join a squad, my squad mates is scattered kilometers apart. I ask my officer for orders, he goes like "lolwut". This is just my experience, I know others might find this gameplay but unfortutunatly I can not.

[noubernou 77]

I think we should just play the mod and then we complain. These restrictions are to prevent public servers from adding other add ons. In case your wondering, UK Force has stated that if a server doesn't have a license, then the client will not be able to play it.

In BF2 PR this worked greatly as before not many servers had strong team play, and lots of servers were customized and simply not the PR feel. I want to play a game knowing that all I need is PR and knowing that all servers will have great teamwork. In PRBF2, I can be a commander and use UAV to coordinate all the (human) squads to take out mortar positions and get a BTR or supplies to a squad who requests it. I can also be cobra pilot and coordinate laser targets with officers and commander and eliminate the threat to advance and secure th city.

I'm probably unlucky but when I go to Public ARMA servers, I don't seem to get team play. At the start of joining I select my position and squad, after what do I see. People just taking the jets and bombing the enemy positions covered in friendlies and not receiving any clearance from a CO. That's one example. Another is when I join a squad, my squad mates is scattered kilometers apart. I ask my officer for orders, he goes like "lolwut". This is just my experience, I know others might find this gameplay but unfortutunatly I can not.

There is very little way that they could implement that realistically in ArmA2.

[max power 21]

WoW EULA/TOS is a bit off.

I don't know if I was comparing it. I was just saying that I've heard of EULAs that talk about altering what's in memory.

And I think there is a distinction between the EULA's terms and its consequences. Whether or not you provide a service is notwithstanding. The copyright holders retain all rights except what is mitigated by fair use and similar laws.

[celery 8]

[noubernou 77]

The copyright holders retain all rights except what is mitigated by fair use and similar laws.

Yea, they retain COPYRIGHT, not any other random rights they want to make up. Copyright only covers how content can be copied and distributed, not how it is used when someone has it.

If everyone goes and downloads PR for free, then goes and downloads something else and uses it with PR that doesn't violate copyright at all.

[Bee8190 10]

There is very little way that they could implement that realistically in ArmA2.

It's great to have all the realistic gear, vehicles, ballistics and whatnot but I'am asking what for?? I mean, we get a game that is reasonably as realistic as close it can get, again with all that gear, sight adjustment and all and than these players go and literally jump in front of your line of fire.

It makes me give up on all these fancy weapons and i'd rather play some cartoony game where there are fights with wooden sticks, IF the team works just little more coordinated.

Also i don't wanna join some clan to get decent round, in PR i never had to, ppl knew what to do and no, they weren't clans, just random dudes that just joined server.

To be fair though i seen quite decent performance on ACE servers (hell im not some former SAS too) but it is not something to be seen on daily basis as rather luck.

My point being, PR is trying to achieve that, reunite the MP community and let the public play as you were in clan.

They did achieve that in BF2, with huge success.Yes, they placed some restrictions here and there but in the end it worked and rather well.

It is my understanding that you can do in the editor whaever you like and even play your own custom mission with PR content on lan, you however cannot realease it for public use without approval of the PR team.

(once again, this is how i personally understand it)

But no, some of you are so fucking addon hungry that if there was a quadrilion of them, including one that has been made to provide specific function,playability or whatever, you just can't let it be.Oh, it is within the community spirit huh?

Well than you just gonna piss on months of someones hard work and possibly spoil the GAMEPLAY for everyone who is looking for FINALLY reunited MP scene and i dont believe that is ''within community spirit'' too

Celery and Hellfire whatever, you are very sophisticated TROLLS

Edited August 26, 2011 by Bee8190

[noubernou 77]

It's great to have all the realistic gear, vehicles, ballistics and whatnot but I'am asking what for?? I mean, we get a game that is reasonably as realistic as close it can get, again with all that gear, sight adjustment and all and than these players go and literally jump in front of your line of fire.

It makes me give up on all these fancy weapons and i'd rather play some cartoony game where there are fights with wooden sticks, IF the team works just little more coordinated.

Also i don't wanna join some clan to get decent round, in PR i never had to, ppl knew what to do and no, they weren't clans, just random dudes that just joined server.

To be fair though i seen quite decent performance on ACE servers (hell im not some former SAS too) but it is not something to be seen on daily basis as rather luck.

My point being, PR is trying to achieve that, reunite the MP community and let the public play as you were in clan.

They did achieve that in BF2, with huge success.Yes, they placed some restrictions here and there but in the end it worked and rather well.

It is my understanding that you can do in the editor whaever you like and even play your own custom mission with PR content on lan, you however cannot realease it for public use without approve of the PR team.

(once again, this is how i personally understand it)

But no, some of you are so fucking addon hungry that if there was a quadrilion of them, including one that has been made to provide specific function,playability or whatever, you just can't let it be.Oh, it is within the community spirit huh?

Well than you just gonna piss on months of someones hard work and possibly spoil the GAMEPLAY for everyone who is looking for FINALLY reunited MP scene and i dont believe that is ''within community spirit'' too

Cool story bro.

Too bad I don't care about what PR is attempting to do for the community, their intentions might be fine, but the means that they are trying to express them through are rather insidious and stupid.

[Bee8190 10]

Cool story bro.

I assume you didn't even read it, thats how cool and awsome you are.

WE don't need to read anotherones point of view on such matter, becouse we are so freaking ignorant that unless we get what we want, we don't care for others huh?

yeah, cool story

even if i agreed with you they don't force it to anyone, as said many times before

[hellfire257 3]

People need to realise that this isn't BF2. This is ARMA.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them trolls. It just proves that the person calling the 'troll' needs to resort to branding people rather than actually trying to sway the argument using intelligent means.

Let me guess, you bought ARMA to play PR?

Edited August 26, 2011 by Hellfire257

[max power 21]

Yea, they retain COPYRIGHT, not any other random rights they want to make up. Copyright only covers how content can be copied and distributed, not how it is used when someone has it.

If everyone goes and downloads PR for free, then goes and downloads something else and uses it with PR that doesn't violate copyright at all.

Exactly, so it's within their right for them to insist that you agree to some terms if you wish to use their stuff. You must agree to the EULA before you actually legally "have it", I think is how it goes.

[Bee8190 10]

People need to realise that this isn't BF2. This is ARMA.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them trolls. It just proves that the person calling the 'troll' needs to resort to branding people rather than actually trying to sway the argument using intelligent means.

Let me guess, you bought ARMA to play PR?

You mean intelligent whining? becouse that is what you do, no matter how intelligently you choose your words.

Yes I'am well aware that nobody is talking about BF2 here...:rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

People need to realise that this isn't BF2. This is ARMA.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them trolls. It just proves that the person calling the 'troll' needs to resort to branding people rather than actually trying to sway the argument using intelligent means.

Let me guess, you bought ARMA to play PR?

Your point being??

[max power 21]

edit: Retracted.

Please help keep this civil.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Max Power

[Amra 10]

You mean intelligent whining? becouse that is what you do, no matter how intelligently you choose your words.

Yes I'am well aware that nobody is talking about BF2 here...:rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

Your point being??

Cool story bro