Bullet holes and material penetration physics

[zork 10]

Can someone point me to some technical documentation where i can read about material penetration physics simulation model in Arma 2?

I see that to some degree it is implemented, although in my opinion very poorly at the moment. There are no even bullet holes visible.

Take a look at this presentation for the Infiltration mod. The material penetration physics is just beautiful... and this mod is around 10 years old.

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Edited July 29, 2011 by zork

[tom3kb 15]

I see bullet holes on trees and buldings and other stuff :).

@down

Or maybe he have graphic options set to low, im on high/v.high

Edited July 29, 2011 by tom3kb

[dale0404 5]

Same as tom3kb for me. Maybe you aren't "looking" correctly...

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I only see bullet impacts, not holes. Fences (reinforced?) as well, only impact decals that quickly go away. Hangar walls allow penetration even from 5.56, but doesn't show any kind of hit effect or bullet hole.

[Craig_VG 20]

50 cal can penetrate almost anything. Metal walls, roofing, even those stone walls that make courtyards around houses.

[LorenLuke 11]

If by 'hole' you mean that you expect to see through it, you'll be on that quest for the better half of forever.

-Thanx,

Luke

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's poorly implemented. IMO material penetration works quite well, but yes there aren't many visual cues. However you can see the effects quite well when you use it certain ways. For example, I've experimented with attaching objects (like a barrel) inside of BMPs to represent components (like an engine), and the penetration aspect works like a charm. Modelling the damage caused however is another story.

[zork 10]

Carl, exactly. Those decals are also definetly not top quality in my opinion, especially when taking into account the overall high visual quality of the Real Virtuality 3 engine in other things, I find it very lacking in this matter.

Also what is the purpose of those decals when they fade out so quick away. When you shooting through cinderblock with continuous shots from rifle or machinegun you should be able not only to see the holes but eventually make them so large that the cinderblocks should just crumble. That's how it is in RL.

Can anyone post some links to technical programming documentation about this in Virtual Reality 3 engine? And to clarify, yes I mean those decals (bullet impacts) and the overall penetration model.

Edited July 29, 2011 by zork

[maturin 12]

Also what is the purpose of those decals when they fade out so quick away. When you shooting through cinderblock with continuous shots from rifle or machinegun you should be able not only to see the holes but eventually make them so large that the cinderblocks should just crumble. That's how it is in RL.

BI could make a system like that in around five seconds.

But then there would have to be maps with four million of those cinderblocks, all trying to run on a dedicated server with people complaining about warping. So no, it's not going to happen.

[wipman 1]

Hi, in the ArmA2 the bullet impacts, the decals, dissapear if they're at more than X from the player; you can check it out shooting at far away objects, wall like, with an ACOG sighted weapon or sniper rifles and placing a unit behind the wall. He could die or just get wounded, but you don't gonna see any impact hole/decal where the bullet did hit on that fence, wall or whatever. Let's C ya

[maturin 12]

Hi, in the ArmA2 the bullet impacts, the decals, dissapear if they're at more than X from the player; you can check it out shooting at far away objects, wall like, with an ACOG sighted weapon or sniper rifles and placing a unit behind the wall. He could die or just get wounded, but you don't gonna see any impact hole/decal where the bullet did hit on that fence, wall or whatever. Let's C ya

If that's so, then the distance must be quite large. Because I've done strafing runs with 30mm from an Su-25, then landed and seen buildings that were absolutely peppered.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

IIRC the so-called "bullet holes" look so bad because they aren't actual textures; they are generated by the shaders or something. Hopefully it will improve in ArmA 3...

[maturin 12]

IIRC the so-called "bullet holes" look so bad because they aren't actual textures; they are generated by the shaders or something. Hopefully it will improve in ArmA 3...

Yep, they're just darkened transparent circles, like stains. They seem to look the same on wood, masonry and steel.

It's one of ArmA's many 'ugly but gets the job done' features.

[ghostnineone 10]

do bullets even go through things in arma besides windshields?

ive honestly never noticed if there is, i assumed there wasnt because ive hid behind little fences and never been shot through them...

[Big Dawg KS 6]

do bullets even go through things in arma besides windshields?

ive honestly never noticed if there is, i assumed there wasnt because ive hid behind little fences and never been shot through them...

Yes. They go through lots of things. The bigger the round the thicker the objects they go through.

[Craig_VG 20]

do bullets even go through things in arma besides windshields?

ive honestly never noticed if there is, i assumed there wasnt because ive hid behind little fences and never been shot through them...

Never had the pleasure of sniping someone through a car? :D

[max power 21]

AFAIK, IIRC, bullet penetration is governed by surface material files for the objects that have it. I think some material files are for shell type structures, like the hull of an aircraft, say, where the material file specifies how thick the wall is and what material it is. Let's say 1 inch steel plate. I think there's another kind of material file that has the thickness of the material based on the actual model- so if you modelled an armour plate you would assign the plate some steel material file.

The penetration calculations are done by comparing the density and length of a projectile and comparing that to the density and depth of the material it's attempting to perforate.

So, you can see, realistic penetrating behaviour of a surface depends on the models having the appropriate bisurf files applied to their firegeoLODs.

[SPC.Spets 21]

I dont know in Arma2 vanilla, but with ACE2 I shoot throw a car with a 50. and killed the AI behind it, also I was using tracer bullets and I see that the direction changes after the impact

[ghostnineone 10]

Never had the pleasure of sniping someone through a car? :D

negative, but now im gonna have to try and see what i can shoot through, because as far as i know ive never been shot through walls or fences

[zork 10]

I dont know in Arma2 vanilla, but with ACE2 I shoot throw a car with a 50. and killed the AI behind it, also I was using tracer bullets and I see that the direction changes after the impact

It's not a problem at all to do that with 50. in real life, so that shouldn't be a problem in a virtual world.

The problem is that you should see bullet holes going through each layer of material and they should stay forever. To my knowledge Infiltration mod is simulating this perfectly.

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Did some of you performed some more penetration tests to verify their accuracy to real life penetration by different weapons?

[zork 10]

I conducted some experiments in the editor, both in VBS2 Lite and Arma 2:OA (no add ons) and it seems that indeed the penetration model there is pretty limited.

I was shooting with 5.56 round through different materials and with live model placed behind those obstacles. It seems that even a window pane is blocking completely the first round in VBS2 -- it only shatters the window without penetrating suspect behind it. This is ridiculous.

Arma2:OA is somewhat better in this field. Bullets does penetrate through glass and doors, but still the suspect could be behind cinderblock corner and even if you empty the whole magazine at that corner he will be unharmed. This is not realistic either. From recent games, America's Army 3 properly simulates shooting through corners, although it also does lack a proper penetration model in other areas.

Edited July 31, 2011 by zork

[dmarkwick 261]

The problem is that you should see bullet holes going through each layer of material and they should stay forever. To my knowledge Infiltration mod is simulating this perfectly.

I don't know about that. The number of decals quickly become unfeasable to handle. I remember an addon in ArmA1 that allowed shell casings to become permanent, and after a few minutes the engine just bogged down with numbers. The decals you suggest are currently done by the graphics cards as geometry, or something analogous to it. They're not textures as such just spawned circles, and are the same objects that make the stars at night. They're obviously cheap & fast to use, which is probably why they're used in this fashion.

I might suggest a method whereby that effect can be altered, to texture decals, and also have their lives altered too. That way, they can be changed if the user wants, even if it means bogging the engine down with over-the-top settings. I appreciate that not all missions have endless massive firefights :)

[wipman 1]

If that's so, then the distance must be quite large. Because I've done strafing runs with 30mm from an Su-25, then landed and seen buildings that were absolutely peppered.

Hi, the distance was like +450m with the M16A4 ACOG M203, but happens at the same distances with the rest of the scoped weapons; you don't see any bullet hole/decal from your possition. I didn't try to get close as it use to be the direction that the NME comes from and after repeal 'em i use to take another path. But i don't remember to get close to any place and see bullet holes from a previous firefight. Let's C ya

*Edit: I remember an addon/mod for the ArmA that substituted the vanilla decals or whatever for another ones that re-created the 'see through bug' that happened with the cars glasses, this was only applyed to soft fences and certain objects like some barns made out of steel plates, some wood constructions and things like that; it looked great but i think that wasn't released at the end... because i didn't had it, and i would had installed it for sure.

Edited July 31, 2011 by wipman

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I don't know about that. The number of decals quickly become unfeasable to handle. I remember an addon in ArmA1 that allowed shell casings to become permanent, and after a few minutes the engine just bogged down with numbers.

It's worth nothing however that a cartridge case with geometry and physical properties is quite different than a decal.

[maturin 12]

Perhaps it's not the penetration system that's the problem so much as the objects available to test with.

Really, most objects in this game are either obviously flimsy or very sturdy. Corrugated tin and plywood fences or thick stone and mud-brick walls.

But really, I think that 14.5mm AP should probably penetrate a Takistani house.