Libyan Revolution Helmet Cam

[Dosenmais 10]

Much of this thread really has been in support of Gaddafi, though, with people denying the existence of reports indicating that Gaddafi committed crimes against his people and ignoring them when they're linked.

I said it before, i don't have a Dog in this fight. I don't like guys like Gaddafi. But do you know what i like even less? The Military-industrial Complex. And they lied about lybia like they lied about serbia. And i don't like getting lied to.

[PELHAM 10]

"This is clearly not a war on part of the Libyan people against their government, but a war on the part of NATO to exploit the resources of Libya ... They had a meeting to discuss the future of Libya in Paris. This meeting did not take place in Africa. It did not take place in Libya. It took place in Europe and this is nothing but an attempt to neo-colonize North Africa and they are beginning with Libya which have the most lucrative resources in Africa and the highest living standard in Africa. So this is clearly an act of force removal and regime change."

Lol all over Libya the streets are full of people thanking the UN and NATO for helping to liberate the country from a violent, greedy tyrant.

As for the Paris meeting.....do you expect the premiers of Europe and the Arab league nations to convene a meeting in an active war zone? You actually think that's practical at any level? Laughable nonsense.

The only colonising that will happen is tourists. I will be happy to plonk my fat ass on a Libyan beach once this is all over. The Rebels and most Libyans look like nice people and I'm looking forward to a new beach because I'm sick of going to Greece, France and Spain all the time. Anyone know how fluid the property market is? Might be good for holiday homes too. Is that colonisation? Is that wrong? If so could you apologise for the 1000s of Libyan citizens 'colonising' the UK and Europe for the last 40 years because they were too afraid to return home?

3/4 of the country is not under the control of Gadaffi. Can you tell us where the manpower comes from to hold such an amount of territory? It's 4x the size of Iraq, if it's not the Libyan people who are these 100s of 1000s occupying all the towns and cities? Nothing you say has any credibility and youtube videos from obscure sources are meaningless.

That 1st video is utter nonsense. The international community is authorised under UN resolution 1973. They followed the UN charter and voted on it? That is legal, the action is authorised under UN resolution and international law. David Lindorff does not seem to know about the UN security council, the vote or the resolution. Epic fail. Factually incorrect on all levels.

Lots of video there from 'investigative journalists' appearing on Russia Today. Need I say more?

High living standards don't mean much when you can't say what you think because even laughing at Gadaffi might end in an appearance before a revolutionary council inquisition and a beating or a noose around your neck. I refer you to the long and far from extensive list above of people publicly executed just for demonstrating.

Edited September 9, 2011 by PELHAM

[Dosenmais 10]

Laughable nonsense.

Life must be so much easier beeing dumb as a box of rocks. :j:

You could go libya beaches before. But know, when the sharia law comes in charge, i guess that wouldn't be possible anymore.

The Rebels look like nice people

LINK REMOVED - explicit content

But hey, here is my offer: YOU PAY! I don't wanna pay taxmoney for that war, you do from now on!

Edited September 9, 2011 by Franze

[purepassion 22]

ahh come on, dont post such things here...

[PELHAM 10]

Life must be so much easier beeing dumb as a box of rocks. :j:

You could go libya beaches before. But know, when the sharia law comes in charge, i guess that wouldn't be possible anymore.

You could not travel comfortably in Libya because of Sharia law. Gadaffi introduced it in 1973. Could you at least read up on the subject and retract what you said? Before you call people dumb it's best to know what you are talking about. I do.....

"On the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad in 1973, Gaddafi delivered a "Five-Point Address". He announced the suspension of all existing laws and the implementation of Sharia. He said that the country would be purged of the "politically sick". A "people's militia" would "protect the revolution". There would be an administrative revolution, and a cultural revolution. Gaddafi set up an extensive surveillance system. 10 to 20 percent of Libyans work in surveillance for the Revolutionary committees. The surveillance takes place in government, in factories, and in the education sector.[48] Gaddafi executed dissidents publicly and the executions were often rebroadcast on state television channels.[48][49] Gaddafi employed his network of diplomats and recruits to assassinate dozens of critical refugees around the world. Amnesty International listed at least 25 assassinations between 1980 and 1987.[48][50]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#Great_Socialist_People.27s_Libyan_Arab_Jamahiriya

Edited September 9, 2011 by PELHAM

[joogrr 10]

Lol all over Libya the streets are full of people thanking the UN and NATO for helping to liberate the country from a violent, greedy tyrant.

As for the Paris meeting.....do you expect the premiers of Europe and the Arab league nations to convene a meeting in an active war zone? You actually think that's practical at any level? Laughable nonsense.

The only colonising that will happen is tourists. I will be happy to plonk my fat ass on a Libyan beach once this is all over. The Rebels and most Libyans look like nice people and I'm looking forward to a new beach because I'm sick of going to Greece, France and Spain all the time. Anyone know how fluid the property market is? Might be good for holiday homes too. Is that colonisation? Is that wrong? If so could you apologise for the 1000s of Libyan citizens 'colonising' the UK and Europe for the last 40 years because they were too afraid to return home?

3/4 of the country is not under the control of Gadaffi. Can you tell us where the manpower comes from to hold such an amount of territory? It's 4x the size of Iraq, if it's not the Libyan people who are these 100s of 1000s occupying all the towns and cities? Nothing you say has any credibility and youtube videos from obscure sources are meaningless.

That 1st video is utter nonsense. The international community is authorised under UN resolution 1973. They followed the UN charter and voted on it? That is legal, the action is authorised under UN resolution and international law. David Lindorff does not seem to know about the UN security council, the vote or the resolution. Epic fail. Factually incorrect on all levels.

Lots of video there from 'investigative journalists' appearing on Russia Today. Need I say more?

High living standards don't mean much when you can't say what you think because even laughing at Gadaffi might end in an appearance before a revolutionary council inquisition and a beating or a noose around your neck. I refer you to the long and far from extensive list above of people publicly executed just for demonstrating.

Still posting speculations with no references or sources?

Definition of "quote".

1. To repeat or copy the words of (another), usually with acknowledgment of the source.

2. To cite or refer to for illustration or proof.

You can "lol" or argue all you want. It's like arguing that someone is stupid for saying that "only two things are infinite" when in fact that someone was simply quoting Albert Einstein.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- A.Einstein

:rolleyes:

[PELHAM 10]

Still posting speculations with no references or sources?

Definition of "quote".

I am happy to oblige.

Happy liberated people - turn on any news channel, 1000s of videos on the internet.

Libya meeting Paris - they don't hold large scale diplomatic meetings involving heads of state in war zones. Thats just common sense.

Exiles - there are 5000 in Manchester alone, Libya does not keep records so you have to go to each country / city to add them up:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9829676

Dissent is illegal under Law 75 of 1973 and Gaddafi has asserted that anyone guilty of founding a political party would be executed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war

3/4 of the Libyan population is not under the control of Gadaffi. Check the maps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973

The resolution formed the legal basis for military intervention in the Libyan civil war, demanding "an immediate ceasefire" and authorizing the international community to establish a no-fly zone and to use all means necessary short of foreign occupation to protect civilians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

Libyans subjected to public execution, a list showing executions carried out during the month of April over the years:

http://sijill.tripod.com/victims/

Public hanging of Sadiq Hamed Shwehdi

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/jul/18/libya-muammar-gaddafi?INTCMP=SRCH

Amnesty International report on enforced disappearances, extrajudicial executions and deaths in custody.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE19/008/2010/en

Here are some more for you:

According to the 2009 Freedom of the Press Index, Libya is the most-censored state in the Middle East and North Africa.[73]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_%28report%29

Libya executed more people (18) in 2010 than any other African state. These 18 shot were by firing squad

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/shooting.html

1200 prisoners shot during massacre at Abu Salim Prison 1996:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/06/28/libya-june-1996-killings-abu-salim-prison

Currently, 83 United Nations members have announced they recognise the NTC as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people and some of them have indicated that they are recognising the NTC as the only legitimate representative of the Libyan people, severing diplomatic relations with Gaddafi's government in the process.[1] Additionally, two non-UN members, Kosovo and Palestine, have also granted recognition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_National_Transitional_Council

Edited September 10, 2011 by PELHAM

[Dosenmais 10]

You could not travel comfortably in Libya because of Sharia law. Gadaffi introduced it in 1973. Could you at least read up on the subject and retract what you said?

Than why do woman serve in the libyan Military? Ever see a woman among the rebels? First of all libya was a socialist state. And sure you could travel before. At least in 2007 they start a big tourist program. It wouldn't be possible to buy some liquor, but hey, do think these screaming and in the air shooting rebels would let you drink alcohol? But i wouldn't travel there becaus i wouldn't support any of these corrupt governments with by currency.

This country will end up fucked up like a mixture between lebanon 1984 and iraq today. And than the NATO would gain a secound strike to stop Al Quaida, which they put in charge, and get whats left.

[joogrr 10]

I am happy to oblige.

Happy liberated people - turn on any news channel, 1000s of videos on the internet.

Libya meeting Paris - they don't hold large scale diplomatic meetings involving heads of state in war zones. Thats just common sense.

Exiles - there are 5000 in Manchester alone, Libya does not keep records so you have to go to each country / city to add them up:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9829676

Dissent is illegal under Law 75 of 1973 and Gaddafi has asserted that anyone guilty of founding a political party would be executed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war

3/4 of the Libyan population is not under the control of Gadaffi. Check the maps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973

The resolution formed the legal basis for military intervention in the Libyan civil war, demanding "an immediate ceasefire" and authorizing the international community to establish a no-fly zone and to use all means necessary short of foreign occupation to protect civilians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973

Libyans subjected to public execution, a list showing executions carried out during the month of April over the years:

http://sijill.tripod.com/victims/

Public hanging of Sadiq Hamed Shwehdi

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/jul/18/libya-muammar-gaddafi?INTCMP=SRCH

Amnesty International report on enforced disappearances, extrajudicial executions and deaths in custody.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE19/008/2010/en

Here are some more for you:

According to the 2009 Freedom of the Press Index, Libya is the most-censored state in the Middle East and North Africa.[73]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_Press_%28report%29

Libya executed more people (18) in 2010 than any other African state. These 18 shot were by firing squad

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/shooting.html

1200 prisoners shot during massacre at Abu Salim Prison 1996:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/06/28/libya-june-1996-killings-abu-salim-prison

Currently, 83 United Nations members have announced they recognise the NTC as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people and some of them have indicated that they are recognising the NTC as the only legitimate representative of the Libyan people, severing diplomatic relations with Gaddafi's government in the process.[1] Additionally, two non-UN members, Kosovo and Palestine, have also granted recognition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_National_Transitional_Council

Are you seriously using Wikipedia as a source? That is like using any forum, including this one as a source :rolleyes:

So it's a war zone now? But it's not a war on the behalf of NATO? Is it a civil war?

The rebels said themselves they would not last for 2 days without NATO support. Does that sound like a civil war to you? In one of the videos I posted you can see civilians, women and children picking up weapons to fight NATO and the rebels. Not the Libyan legitimate forces. It's not the Libyan people who started this but a small number of armed rebels of which some are members of al-Qaida.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html

Do you think "UN Resolution 1973" is giving them unlimited power to bomb any country, kill any leader and overthrow the regime in any country? Do you think that only using "air power" is a legitimate reason for not calling it a "war"? What if we start using ballistic nuclear missiles? That's not a war either because you have "no boots on the ground". :rolleyes:

Western countries and US / NATO have no right to overthrow the regime in Libya. Libya signed the Geneva conventions. Ghadaffi gave up on this WMD program. Libya never threatened any neighboring countries and most definitely not the US or any European countries. Libya was not a threat to global stability.

In a way you are just a victim of propaganda.

The Top Ten Myths in the War Against Libya.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/08/31/the-top-ten-myths-in-the-war-against-libya/

[b101_uk 10]

I am happy to oblige.

Happy liberated people - turn on any news channel, 1000s of videos on the internet...............etc.................etc.................etc.................etc

Guys you should remember that “Wikipedia†pages can be written by ANY idiot and NOTHING on Wikipedia should be considered true or factual by virtue of being on “Wikipediaâ€

Likewise using other links can also be bad and nonfactual as can how you wish to “report†what is said in the link

e.g.

Libya executed more people (18) in 2010 than any other African state. These 18 shot were by firing squad

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/shooting.html

Could be reported as:

Libya executed one less person (18) in 2010 than Yemen (19) (another Arab state). Who were shot by firing squad, by contrast the US state of Utah had one shot by firing squad in 2010 where there is a choice of execution means available to the defendant.

It’s the same info, but the former is presented in a sensationalist fashion and with the use of ambiguity to misdirect, i.e. using “African state†rather than “Arab state†to hide Yemen, the latter is a more balanced synopsis and less sensationalist.

[PELHAM 10]

Than why do woman serve in the libyan Military? Ever see a woman among the rebels? First of all libya was a socialist state. And sure you could travel before. At least in 2007 they start a big tourist program.

You said

You could go libya beaches before. But know, when the sharia law comes in charge, I guess that wouldn't be possible anymore.

I simply pointed out that the country has had Sharia law since 1973. You did not appear to know that? No idea how that governs women serving in the military - they also do in Iran. Many think Gadaffi introduced Sharia to enable his committees to dish out summary executions / punishments. His Amazonian guards are a bit of an anomaly for such a pious Muslim?

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ----------

Are you seriously using Wikipedia as a source? That is like using any forum, including this one as a source :rolleyes:

If there are any inaccuracies on those pages please provide evidence.

You were using Russia Today as your chief source? :annoy:

So it's a war zone now? But it's not a war on the behalf of NATO? Is it a civil war?

I never said it wasn't a war zone? Who did? It doesn't look like a picnic zone does it? Your suggestion that something was wrong because they didn't hold a summit of world leaders there was ridiculous.

It's not the Libyan people who started this but a small number of armed rebels of which some are members of al-Qaida.

How have this small number of rebels managed to hold all cities and towns except 4? If Gadaffi has all this support where is it? Why have 83 UN Nations (+2) recognised the new government? That doesn't add up.

Do you think "UN Resolution 1973" is giving them unlimited power to bomb any country, kill any leader and overthrow the regime in any country?

Yes, in Libya, not any country it says "protect civilians by any means". Bit convenient legally lol but they have all the authority right there.

NATO have not killed Gadaffi and did not overthrow him, his own people did.

Do you think that only using "air power" is a legitimate reason for not calling it a "war"? What if we start using ballistic nuclear missiles? That's not a war either because you have "no boots on the ground". :rolleyes:

Who said it wasn't a war? Not me. They don't need boots on the ground and are not authorised to do so. The Libyan people are the boots on the ground.

War: War is a state of organized, armed and often prolonged conflict carried on between states, nations, or other parties[1][2] typified by extreme aggression, social disruption, and usually high mortality.[1]

Sounds like a war to me?

Western countries and US / NATO have no right to overthrow the regime in Libya.

They aren't, the Libyan people are. NATO are just enforcing UN1973.

In a way you are just a victim of propaganda.

Same to you with nobs on.

---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 PM ----------

Guys you should remember that “Wikipedia†pages can be written by ANY idiot and NOTHING on Wikipedia should be considered true or factual by virtue of being on “Wikipediaâ€

Likewise using other links can also be bad and nonfactual as can how you wish to “report†what is said in the link

e.g.

Could be reported as:

Libya executed one less person (18) in 2010 than Yemen (19) (another Arab state). Who were shot by firing squad, by contrast the US state of Utah had one shot by firing squad in 2010 where there is a choice of execution means available to the defendant.

It’s the same info, but the former is presented in a sensationalist fashion and with the use of ambiguity to misdirect, i.e. using “African state†rather than “Arab state†to hide Yemen, the latter is a more balanced synopsis and less sensationalist.

Again, if anything is incorrect on those wikipedia pages please provide evidence for it. You could say the same about any source. Anything that is written is written by somebody you know.

Executions:

Lol so in other words Gadaffi is a wonderful guy so long as he executes 1 less than somebody else? Libya is in Africa you know? When Gadaffi proclaimed himself king of kings he wasn't talking about Arabia, he saw himself as a future absolute leader of Africa.

The guy shot in Utah had a fair trial and chose his method of execution. Can the same be said for all the Libyans who died under Gadaffi? I did read that page before I quoted it. What difference does 1 distasteful American execution make to this debate.

Edited September 10, 2011 by PELHAM

[b101_uk 10]

Again, if anything is incorrect on those wikipedia pages please provide evidence for it. You could say the same about any source. Anything that is written is written by somebody you know.

Executions:

Lol so in other words Gadaffi is a wonderful guy so long as he executes 1 less than somebody else? Libya is in Africa you know? When Gadaffi proclaimed himself king of kings he wasn't talking about Arabia, he saw himself as a future absolute leader of Africa.

The guy shot in Utah had a fair trial and chose his method of execution. Can the same be said for all the Libyans who died under Gadaffi? I did read that page before I quoted it. What difference does 1 distasteful American execution make to this debate.

Yes but to use the fact that Libya within its own legal framework carries out the death penalty ergo makes everything automatically bad/negative/etc or that the fact they use firing squad as being bad/negative/etc or any other permutation to make Libya look bad is very wide of the mark.

Death by firing squad IS the most popular means of legal execution the world over used in many country’s, that fact that Libya have used is of NO relevance or argument regardless of your personal feelings on the subject, Libya has the death penalty for high treason amongst other things which every single rebel in Libya WILL be guilty of however much you try to distort things, if the rebel is shooting at you the military I am afraid to say it’s an extremely clear cut case of high treason which like MENY country’s do or have in the past have exceptions in place specifically relating to “war†and the “threat of war†be it internal or external and it HAS to be accepted that during war exceptions to the normal course of action exist.

As a case in point - exceptions at time of war:

If we take the UK, it was not until the ECoHR 6th protocol was adopted in 1998 that the death penalty (excepting: in time of war or imminent threat of war) was abolished and under military law via the HRA that same year, it was not until 2004 that the UK parliament ratified the ECoHR 13th Protocol that death penalty cessed to exist in the UK for anything at any time inc wartime etc. ;)

There were ~46 people executed last year in the USA, perhaps you should consider these people as well as well as the MENY other countries who also LEGALY within their own legal framework carry out the death penalty, so trying to use Libya use of the death penalty to mark it apart is foolish.

As for you other links, it’s not for me to prove they are right, it’s for you given you don’t know the author, or the truth of ANY statement made within them, the best you can merely do is take them at face value as someone’s opinion who you cannot verify or attest as being the truth/truthful, we are NOT dealing with conversion factors, numbers or other things that can easily be checked like the exact conversion of an imperial FT into metric CM with 10000 other places on the web that it can be checked yet alone all the reference books, hell anything written on Libya the past 6months plus will be written with the authors own bent or skew of the situation be it politics, religion or just the need to make Libya look good OR bad to the outside world!

[PELHAM 10]

Yes but to use the fact that Libya within its own legal framework carries out the death penalty ergo makes everything automatically bad/negative/.

Libya under Gadaffi looked bad for hundreds of reasons, if you think the contrary is true - tell us some good things. We are all very very interested in that one.

Death by firing squad IS the most popular means of legal execution the world over used in many country’s,

Sorry, my mistake. If putting people in front of a firing squad is so popular with everyone I guess it's me that is at odds with popular opinion on that.

As for you other links, it’s not for me to prove they are right,

I'm not asking you to prove them right, prove them wrong. If you think they are wrong please provide your own evidence.

Something else for you to consider. A list of 61 Nations that have recognised the Libyan Rebels / NTC, (there are reported to be 83, but I can only find links for 61, a further 22 offer support to the Libyan people and condemn Gadaffi). By doing so they clearly support my viewpoint. The Secretary General of the UN has also recognised the new government and has offered UN support to build new systems.

You claim that I am wrong and yet myself and all those governments, The UN, EU, NATO, Arab League (excepting Syria and Algeria) and many nations of the OAU have the same viewpoint. All these learned people have the wrong idea do they?

List of governments recognising the Libyan NTC

Palestinian Authority Kososvo Bahrain Egypt Iraq Jordan Kuwait Lebanon Morocco Oman Qatar Sudan Tunisia UAE Botswana Burkina Faso Cape VerdeChad Cote d'Ivioire Ethiopia Gabon Gambia Nigeria Rwanda Senegal Canada Colombia Panama United States Japan Maldives South Korea Albania Austria Belgium Bosnia and Herzegovina Bulgaria Czech Republic Denmark France Greece Germany Iceland Ireland Italy Latvia Luxembourg Malta Montenegro Norway Poland Portugal Serbia Spain Slovenia Sweden Switzerland Turkey United Kingdom Australia New Zealand

Edited September 10, 2011 by PELHAM

[eble 3]

Well I know at least one of 'those' facts is dead wrong, a woman from my office travelled round Libya not more than 6 months ago with her daughter as a tourist from Australia with no problems, the country wasn't really set up for tourism as yet but she had no hassles etc.

[PELHAM 10]

Well I know at least one of 'those' facts is dead wrong, a woman from my office travelled round Libya not more than 6 months ago with her daughter as a tourist from Australia with no problems, the country wasn't really set up for tourism as yet but she had no hassles etc.

I did not say it was impossible to travel, merely not convenient because travelling in countries under dictatorship is always a little wierd. The average tourist could get into trouble over the slightest misunderstanding and the police only know one form of behaviour. It was not set up for tourism because hardly anyone was going there for obvious reasons.

I have a friend who went to Libya in 2008 to do 2 weeks work on monitoring systems at an oil field. He and several other contractors were arrested at gunpoint and held for a week at a police station because the manager wanted to 'negotiate' an extention on a contract.

In my opinion, travel to Libya under Gadaffi was unwise because of things like this:

Gadhafi's Son Confirms Abuse of Bulgarian Medics

SpeigelOnline 08/10/2007

Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's son confirms allegations made by a Palestinian-Bulgarian doctor and five Bulgarian nurses that they were tortured while being held captive in Libya for nine years.

Since their European Union-brokered release last month , the six have given interviews with the European press, including SPIEGEL, citing specific torture techniques and methods used on them while being held on charges of infecting Libyan children with HIV.

In an interview with Al-Jazeera released in excerpts on Wednesday, Seif Al-Islam Gadhafi, considered by some analysts to be a reformer, confirmed most of the allegations.

"Yes, they were tortured by electricity and they were threatened that their family members would be targeted," he said. Gadhafi did not apologize for their treatment, and even said allegations made by Palestinian-Bulgarian doctor Sharaf al-Hazouz, who was arrested with the five nurses and later awarded Bulgarian citizenship, were false.

"A lot of what the Palestinian doctor has claimed are merely lies," he said.

In interviews with European media and a long first-person account in SPIEGEL , al-Hazouz detailed the torture he was subjected to. He said he was crowded into cells with as many as 70 other prisoners, where they were forced to sleep in shifts in uncomfortable positions. He said Libyan guards tortured him and the nurses with electrical shocks and locked him in a room with three dogs.

"They ordered the animals to attack me. My leg is covered with scars from their bites," he told SPIEGEL. "I had a large hole in my knee. I was served my meals in the bowl they used for the dogs."

When he became unconscious following electrical torture, the guards would wake him up with a bucket of ice water, he said. The doctor and nurses were sometimes tortured in the same room, and al-Hazouz claimed guards raped the women.

The doctor lashed out at Gadhafi following his disparaging comments to Al-Jazeera. "Seif Al-Islam always tells only a part of the truth, manipulating the media," he told the Associated Press. "I told the full truth ... All of us were tortured like animals."

One of the nurses, Snezhana Dimitrova, said she was pleased at the younger Gadhafi's admission. "The fact that a Libyan, and the son of Gadhafi at that, has told the truth is very gratifying and I thank him for it," she told the AP.

Libyan police arrested the six in 1999 and accused them of deliberately infecting more than 400 children with HIV while working at a Libyan hospital. The group was forced to sign confessions -- which they later recanted following their release. Health experts later blamed unhygienic conditions at the hospital for the HIV infections among the children.

After years of pressure and negotiations, the EU was finally able to broker a deal with the Libyan government -- which has pursued rapprochement with the Western world in recent years -- to obtain the medics' release. The EU also struck a deal for millions in aid to Libya and France later signed a controversial arms deal with the Libyan government. (lol selling arms to future enemies again!)

---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 AM ----------

Great news!

Libyan interim leader Abdul Jalil flies to Tripoli

Libyan Transitional National Council chairman Mustafa Abdel Jalil, centre right, flanked with Libya former rebels" Tripoli military commander Abdel Hakim Belhaj, left, after arriving at Metiga airport in Tripoli Sept. 10, 2011.

The head of Libya's interim government, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, has flown to Tripoli for the first time since anti-Gaddafi forces captured the capital.

Mr Abdul Jalil was greeted by hundreds of cheering, flag-waving supporters.

Bad news for Gadaffi - only 4 towns left under control of the old regime.

source BBC news website.

Edited September 11, 2011 by PELHAM

[Minutemen 10]

Well, once again Al Quaida demanded credit for the arab spring...

Al-Qaida leader seeks credit for Arab spring

Ayman al-Zawahiri says the September 11 attacks on the US paved the way for the 'Arab volcano' sweeping the region a decade later

Gadhafi's Son Confirms Abuse of Bulgarian Medics

SpeigelOnline 08/10/2007

The Spiegel also reported before that one of Gadhafis sons was captured while smuggeling a G36 Rifle from germany to france in his diplomatic pouch. And they let him go.

By the Way, the UNO for example gave Woman in Peru sterilizing vaccination shots. From time to time strange mistakes happen...

NATO have not killed Gadaffi and did not overthrow him, his own people did.

Do you believe that seriosly? Because France already addmidet that they shiped weapons to the rebel forces and many other european countrys gave them large amounts of money.

Hey, you can't start revolutions by building barrikades in the streets anymore like in the 19th century. No such thing could happen without huuuge intelligence involvement.

[Spokesperson 0]

Blatant imperialism, interfering in civil wars, financing violent opposition groups to undermine legit governments, handing out weapons to combatants, performing coup d'etat's, while calling it protecting civilians. It's a crime against humanity and international law. Sarkozy and Cameron should be brought to justice.

[st_dux 26]

... financing violent opposition groups to undermine legit governments

Clearly, the people of Libya didn't think it was legit.

[b101_uk 10]

Clearly, the people of Libya didn't think it was legit.

Clearly there were times when most of Libya was behind the legitimate government, if it wasn’t for the perpetual whipping up of a storm by media threw the reporting and showing of political rhetoric being spouted mainly by the Americans at first who then caused other “lapdogs†to spout more rhetoric agreeing based on flimsy hearsay and armed rebels claiming to be civilians and moaning that shock-horror they were being shot at or unarmed people clearly standing around armed people and captured military hardware.

Its just like the WMD’s that never were.

[st_dux 26]

I don't get it. You guys are getting upset because you think the West is stirring up a coup, but apparently you forget that Gaddafi came into power through a coup. In 1969. He's had sole control over Libya since then, swiftly acting to crush dissent whenever it has arisen. This is not "flimsy hearsay" from armed rebels; it is historical fact. How can you pretend that this constitutes a legitimate government? I agree that NATO shouldn't have intervened militarily (for economic reasons), but Gaddafi was a tyrant and there's really no question about that. The self-delusion going on in this thread is staggering.

[HyperU2 11]

Some people have to see what goes against the US before they can have an opinion.

[b101_uk 10]

I don't get it. You guys are getting upset because you think the West is stirring up a coup, but apparently you forget that Gaddafi came into power through a coup. In 1969. He's had sole control over Libya since then, swiftly acting to crush dissent whenever it has arisen. This is not "flimsy hearsay" from armed rebels; it is historical fact. How can you pretend that this constitutes a legitimate government? I agree that NATO shouldn't have intervened militarily (for economic reasons), but Gaddafi was a tyrant and there's really no question about that. The self-delusion going on in this thread is staggering.

LOL

So you’re sighting a coup d'etat that was literally over in a couple of hours carried out by Libyans in Libya when there was a power vacuum when the first and only ever king of Libya was out of the country AND very few people were killed vs. todays conflict in Libya.

And if you want that as an argument then Mohammed El Senussi should be in power then? :p

:D

[PELHAM 10]

I don't get it. You guys are getting upset because you think the West is stirring up a coup, but apparently you forget that Gaddafi came into power through a coup. In 1969. He's had sole control over Libya since then, swiftly acting to crush dissent whenever it has arisen. This is not "flimsy hearsay" from armed rebels; it is historical fact. How can you pretend that this constitutes a legitimate government? I agree that NATO shouldn't have intervened militarily (for economic reasons), but Gaddafi was a tyrant and there's really no question about that. The self-delusion going on in this thread is staggering.

Well said, how could Gadaffi ever be legitimate when no one has ever voted for him. He took power by force and now the same thing has happened to him. The wonderful difference is that the head of the NTC says he will not seek election and is only there to manage the country through the transition to democracy.

Would Gadaffi ever say anything like that?

United Nations Resolution 1973 which authorised the military action in Libya is being enforced not just by NATO members but by others such as Egypt and Qatar. The majority of the Arab League supports UN1973 and has recently given Libya back it's seat which will be occupied by members of the NTC.

If you read the page before this one I have listed 61 nations that have recognised the NTC as the legitimate Government which includes the majority of the Arab League and other Muslim and African nations. To try to label this as some sort of US lead NATO invasion is poppycock.

The continued delusion on this subject is baffling.

PS anyone see Cameron and Sarkozy having a walkabout and meeting people in Tripoli/Benghazi yesterday?

---------- Post added at 04:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

LOL

So you’re sighting a coup d'etat that was literally over in a couple of hours carried out by Libyans in Libya when there was a power vacuum when the first and only ever king of Libya was out of the country AND very few people were killed vs. todays conflict in Libya.

:D

That may be true but it's probably best not to forget the 1000s that were killed both in Libya and internationally on Gadaffis orders during the past 40 years. Including Pan Am flight 103 and UTA flight 772 the following year.

Also the Libyan Army in 1969 numbered around 6000. Gadaffi increased it's numbers to 50,000, that's just the Army, multiply that figure many times to include the rest of his bloated security apparatus. That's just how much protection he needed from his own people.

If you really do live in the UK could you please answer the following:

Do you like the right to vote?

Do you like freedom of speech?

Do you like human rights?

Do you like a free press?

Do you like an independent judicial system with police oversight?

Yes to all? If so why would you deny these things to the Libyan people?

Edited September 16, 2011 by PELHAM

[b101_uk 10]

That may be true but it's probably best not to forget the 1000s that were killed both in Libya and internationally on Gadaffis orders during the past 40 years. Including Pan Am flight 103 and UTA flight 772 the following year.

Also the Libyan Army in 1969 numbered around 6000. Gadaffi increased it's numbers to 50,000, that's just the Army, multiply that figure many times to include the rest of his bloated security apparatus. That's just how much protection he needed from his own people.

If you really do live in the UK could you please answer the following:

Do you like the right to vote?

Do you like freedom of speech?

Do you like human rights?

Do you like a free press?

Do you like an independent judicial system with police oversight?

Yes to all? If so why would you deny these things to the Libyan people?

Equally one could ask the same of the US president’s in the same 40 years, ultimately I suspect world wide the US/NATO/UK and a few others have each killed a lot more people “internationallyâ€, if your like the USA who like to double deal or interfere in things that are NONE of their business or try to subvert things to their advantage you are going to get burnt or have people retaliate.

The increase from 6000 to 50000 can be accounted for with the larger amount of wealth Libya has now than then, the extra installations it has to protect and the continued harassment Libya has had from the likes of the USA long before Pan Am flight 103, take the Freedom of Navigation exercises which were just to provoke response.

As for “Do you like the right to vote?â€

right to vote is ok but it is much overrated because a lot of people are to short sighted and some party’s follow traits of mismanagement like labour are not good at saving money only spending it and leaving the coffers bare, they are good when there is “good times†financially but as soon as financial storm clouds are seen on the horizon you want them out and the conservatives in, unfortunately a good percentage of voters are yet to figure this out soon enough or just to dyed in the wool to vote for any other party.

As for “Do you like freedom of speech?â€

What like the BNP etc or the right to print lies of someone?

As for “Do you like human rights?â€

Ok you have me on that one :rolleyes:, but I like a lot of people would have picked “old†Libya over many other worse places in the world ;)

As for “Do you like a free press?â€

Is this the same “free press†that there is all the currant argument that they are “much too free†and overstepping the bounds?

As for “Do you like an independent judicial system with police oversight?â€

You mean the same judicial system which allows police to in the worst cases get away with murder because there are far to many armed officers who see being armed as a way for extra overtime so standards slips because they can no longer pick just the finest officers with the highest ethics wile having the knowledge and fortitude to act within and to the letter of the law as would be applied to us?

You know it’s easy to throw about a few short statements to hide behind. ;)

[st_dux 26]

@b101_uk:

You come across as extremely naive. You say that speech and the press are both "too free," the implication being that they must be restricted in some way, but you don't seem to understand that restrictions on free speech always lead to more corruption, not less. In a free marketplace of ideas, people are exposed to several points of view and are allowed to believe what they want. In a government-controlled marketplace of ideas, only those viewpoints that are copacetic with state interests are allowed to proliferate; this is how you get things like China censoring the internet and Gaddafi silencing dissenters for decades.

There are problems with every government system, no doubt, but totalitarian dictatorships are certainly more problematic than Western liberal democracies. It's very easy to talk about the supposed merits of a totalitarian state from the comfort of a free UK society. Had you attempted to espouse similar support of an alternative system while living in Gaddafi's Libya, you would likely have found yourself in jail for speaking against official government doctrine. This is why the Libyans rebelled.