Libyan Revolution Helmet Cam

[krzychuzokecia 714]

and also there are no reports of civilians deliberately killed by gheddafi.

Well, from what I've read Ghaddafi/Gaddafi soldiers acted very brutal in early phase of revolution - in Misratah and Benghazi cities. So I wouldn't be so sure that they haven't killed civilians (remember that rebels ARE civilians, this is not military junta).

there are no evidences of mass rapes by gheddafi forces.

but there are evidence of civilians killed by nato forces.

These two are facts. That 'mass-rapes-hoax' was widely commented in Poland. And 'collateral damage' is... obvious in modern war.

By posting link to CTC report I didn't wanted to change this thread into 'rebels are or are not terrorists' flame war. I just wanted to focus on new threats emerging that are connected with new power in rule of Libya. I'm sure that if new government will turn to fundamentalism, citizens of Libya will protest again - Libyan society is very atheistic (at least when comparing with other Islamic countries). But some people, connected with Al Queda, might gain power and use it against us.

[Dosenmais 10]

Interesting reading for those who want to know more:

Al-Qa’ida’s Foreign Fighters in Iraq by Combating Terrorism Center at West Point (December 2007).

Careful Man, i get banned last time i persist on facts.

But by the way. Now Al Quaida, Bandits and royalists are good while first responders are not welcome at the 911 ceremony.

I don't have a dog in this fight, i don't care for ghaddafi or his hooker beating bastards. But i hope those "Rebells" get slaughtered to a man. I have no interessts for an Al Quaida base in Lybia.

[HyperU2 11]

I don't think Al Quaida was given an invite to the ceremony. They may come uninvited though. Maybe not having a bunch of first responders there makes sense tactically.

[Dosenmais 10]

Maybe not having a bunch of first responders there makes sense tactically.

Makes sense for the traitors which were posing with firefighters and first responders. Because the FR are very angry, most of them are sick, many died because they were lied to about the toxic air on ground zero and don't get health care. Hell, they were lied to about everything.

Looks like the Terrorist won already. They get NATO supplies and the American People lost nearly almost their freedom.

[HyperU2 11]

Really? I haven't noticed any lost freedoms. I did have to go to a bank in person to open a new account last week because of the Patriot Act though. Then again 10 years ago I'd probably have to go to the bank to open one anyway.

[Daniel 0]

More on the Scud launches:

More on the Scud missiles fired towards Misrata on Monday (10:12 entry): "We can confirm reports concerning the firing of three surface-to-surface Scud missiles from the vicinity of Sirte," chief Nato spokeswoman Oana Lungescu said. "They landed in the coastal area of Misrata," she added, indicating no knowledge of casualties.

[woore 10]

I saw Lebanon insurgents on a jeep with mounted ... Zu - 23! How?? How is it moves? I'm surprised)

My suggestion is to build the discussion, based on facts, not the info like "One Libyan said..."

Edited August 23, 2011 by woore

[Dosenmais 10]

More on the Scud launches:

Who cares? Maybee they make that up again. :rolleyes:

[Daniel 0]

Yeah...

Apparently the rebels have now taken to bombing Gadaffi's compound with their own jets.

1320: Rupert Wingfield-Hayes BBC Middle East Correspondent in western Tripoli adds: Things appear to be going in the rebels' favour - earlier rebel jets bombed Col Gaddafi's compound.

That's since been revised as NATO jets, thought that was a bit odd.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Daniel

[*LK1* 10]

Well, from what I've read Ghaddafi/Gaddafi soldiers acted very brutal in early phase of revolution - in Misratah and Benghazi cities. So I wouldn't be so sure that they haven't killed civilians (remember that rebels ARE civilians, this is not military junta).

the problem is" is it credible what you have read? that's the point.

I would be willing to bet that gaddafi forces as killed civilians. the problems is quantitative: there isn't a clear number of civilians casualties to overcross that allow someone to make a military campaign... i guess is just how the public opinion react and how is sensitive that allow the government of that public opinion to interfere.but if you feed the public opinion with bullshit...

probably if the number of civilians killings would be so high amnesty international and human right watch wouldnt have problems to find facts that showing these deliberate killings. and you should know: is not normal to make a military campaign against a sovereign state just for a bunch of trigger-happy loyalists. you should understand before invading a country, if we accept the fact that nato should be the world police force, if these civilians killings are deliberately committed and ordered from the man in command and how huge( in terms of quantity) these assassinations are. making before an international investigation a military campaign and maybe after that searching evidences is like arresting people and only after searching for committed crimes :)

These two are facts. That 'mass-rapes-hoax' was widely commented in Poland.).

in italy too.

even the Jewish conspiracy to dominate the world was widely commented in europe during 1800/1900( and in some case even now). but it's stay a bullshit. the "weapons of mass destruction" of saddam were widely commented before we knew it was a bullshit.

.And 'collateral damage' is... obvious in modern war.).

dont you think that this kind of justification/excuse could be used by gaddafi too?:). moreover i see a problem in how the words are used. when an enemy of the western world kill someone we used words as: genocide, massacre, deliberate killings and bla bla. when NATO does oh, the sound change, we use the word "collateral damage". so funny.

By posting link to CTC report I didn't wanted to change this thread into 'rebels are or are not terrorists' flame war.

no problem. i just wanted to focalize my self on something which is IT and it's an important part of this discussion concerning libya: is that another war made for dirty interests like iraq or is something different?

and until we dont find huge evidences of massacres against civilians this war is just "iraq 2.0".

---------- Post added at 05:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

I saw Lebanon insurgents on a jeep with mounted ... Zu - 23! How?? How is it moves? I'm surprised)

My suggestion is to build the discussion, based on facts, not the info like "One Libyan said..."

this entire war is based on "One Libyan said...", "one journalist has saw...",

" we ensure you that..." :o. many libyans of tripoli were killed for these assumptions.

ot:

i would just to count the number of civilians killed by gaddafi to compare this number with the civilians killed by the americans during their iraq occupation.

Edited August 25, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[HyperU2 11]

t

ot:

i would just to count the number of civilians killed by gaddafi to compare this number with the civilians killed by the americans during their iraq occupation.

Don't forget to multiply by 8. Good luck finding true numbers on that though, propaganda tends to inflate things greatly.

[*LK1* 10]

Don't forget to multiply by 8..

i dont need. its stay a big number even without multiply it.

Good luck finding true numbers on that though, propaganda tends to inflate things greatly.

there still associations which they remain credibles, at least to my eyes. like ONU, human right watch, amnesty and few more. listen: im not anti-american or anti-western i just have difficulties to respect a foreign politic which make thousand and thousand of deaths just for interests. i would prefer to see president obama or bush, sarkozy dressed like red necks saying "hey camels, you know what? we want your oil and we will kick your ass with big nukes until we dont get it,yehaa!! clop clop clop clop". hypocrisy is annoying.

Edited August 25, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[HyperU2 11]

Actually you need to look at Carter for that quote.

[*LK1* 10]

lol ok. by the way i was talking in general, nothing against you or your worldwiev :);)

[HyperU2 11]

I don't mind. I think not enough emphasis gets put on the fact that we would indeed fight for oil. It's important to the stability of our economy. For now. But it's also not the sole factor, there are many countries who have oil and wouldn't have to worry about US intervention.

[*LK1* 10]

I don't mind. I think not enough emphasis gets put on the fact that we would indeed fight for oil. It's important to the stability of our economy.

sounds like: "i like that the gasoline should stay at 60/70 cent ori have to spend more money. who fkin care if some arab should die for that. is good for my economy". maaaan...:rolleyes:

But it's also not the sole factor, there are many countries who have oil and wouldn't have to worry about US intervention.

yes. the country that are already your allies should not being interested from an us intervention. obvious.

[Tonci87 163]

Well isn´t it surprising that everybody was like "WTF Ghaddafi is killing Civies? We Need to send the Bombers in now, of course just to protect the oi.. I mean those poor civies."

But no one cares about Syria?

[HyperU2 11]

Well Europe didn't really have a hand in where Syria is today.

sounds like: "i like that the gasoline should stay at 60/70 cent ori have to spend more money. who fkin care if some arab should die for that. is good for my economy". maaaan...:rolleyes:

Stability, not cheapness.

Edited August 25, 2011 by HyperU2

[*LK1* 10]

Well isn´t it surprising that everybody was like "WTF Ghaddafi is killing Civies? We Need to send the Bombers in now, of course just to protect the oi.. I mean those poor civies."

But no one cares about Syria?

*

oh dont you worry mate.

syria it will be the next. anyone is accepting bets?

when the economic stability is going badly or/and the oil price is growing the western world remembers that there is a fool tyrant sitting on tons of oil somewhere right there, where is full of sand and there are a lot of camels. :(

---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

Stability, not cheapness.

cause and effect( i just exposing you 1 of them, the gasoline price).

Edited August 25, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[b101_uk 10]

Well, from what I've read Ghaddafi/Gaddafi soldiers acted very brutal in early phase of revolution - in Misratah and Benghazi cities. So I wouldn't be so sure that they haven't killed civilians (remember that rebels ARE civilians, this is not military junta).

rebels may be "civilian" but like ANY gun toting person who is going agenised the rule of law they lose their rights that are afforded to innocent civilians, also the gun toting rebels are effectively hiding behind many innocent civilians ware as the Libyan army were not! ;)

The Libyan army have a RIGHT to defend themselves from armed rebels and the ONLY reson the rebels were not crushed right away was the army & Gadhafi wishing to avoid innocent civilian bloodshed which of cause if you listen to what the USA was saying early on did not happen though many independent outside journalist who make their living from going to places like this and were actually there were reporting this fact and not just saying it but producing their own video footage taken from the rebels perspective which clearly showed the Libyan army being restrained and only firing when rebels (who were in clear sight of the army) tried to advance towards the army. (you will most likely have seen this clip though heavily edited and shortened down from the original as aired on France 24, the heavily edited/shortened version gave a completely different impression to the full length version, like so meny other clips)

The rebels may have been of civilian origin but they don’t have the rights of civilians when they take up arms, which would be just the SAME case in ANY western country if people took up arms - i.e. you would be shot by police/army.

As a white British person I am disgusted by the actions of our governments over the past 10 years and the actions of NATO for the past couple of years and as for the American government (not American people) they are the biggest terrorists out there who have had their own addenda of deliberately destabilising country’s for their OWN gain for the past 50+ years.

[*LK1* 10]

Well, from what I've read Ghaddafi/Gaddafi soldiers acted very brutal in early phase of revolution - in Misratah and Benghazi cities. So I wouldn't be so sure that they haven't killed civilians (remember that rebels ARE civilians, this is not military junta).

if you grab a pistol/ak/rpg /railgun(fukkk yeah...) you stop to be considerated technically a "civilian" even if you are not part of a regular force. otherwise it would be so easy: "lalala lala lala can touch me ( im a civ), bang bang lalala lala lala can touch me....":angel:

---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------

As a white British person I am disgusted by the actions of our governments over the past 10 years and the actions of NATO for the past couple of years and as for the American government (NNOOTT AAMMEERRIICCAANN PPEEOOPPLLEE)

*

they are the biggest terrorists out there who have had their own addenda of deliberately destabilising country’s for their OWN gain for the past 50+ years.

cough cough CIA cough.

we should start to call terrorists the nations that has made the highest number of wars in the past and even in the new century which caused an high number of deaths(directly or undirectly) instead of considering terrorist the last guy demonized on our networks.

Edited August 25, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[PELHAM 10]

As a white British person I am disgusted by the actions of our governments

Really? You really are a 'white British person'? Obviously you think claiming such a thing would add weight to your ravings, I'm not fooled. :D

Any thoughts on the torture victims who were found executed near Gaddafi's compound today? (Yes there were witnesses, it's being investigated officially as a war crime)

I hope the Syrian people rise up next. Hopefully the days of the greedy dictator and his cronies are over. You have no idea what it's like to live under scum like Gaddafi, Assad and Mugabe and others.

Edited August 25, 2011 by PELHAM

[maturin 12]

Yep, looks like here are some more political infants who believe that adopting black and white, absolutist viewpoints is a cool thing to do, so long as it's the anti-U.S. perspective. Because anything less makes you as bad as Dick Cheney.

Ghaddafi's security forces slaughtered several hundred unarmed protestors in Benghazi, much like Syria is doing right now, and somewhat like what Mubarak was doing. The end.

As for "restraint," I'm curious in what world using cluster munitions and Grad rockets on populated areas qualifies as restraint. Pro-Ghaddaffi forces have held medical personnel hostage, forcing them to operate on their soldiers while denying normal citizens care. Then they bombed the hospital when they were forced to withdraw. Ghaddafi has been just as brutal as other Middle Eastern and African dictators over the last several generations, and has visited more violence on his own population than most of them.

Get these simple, irrefutable facts through your childlike heads. Admitting their existence does nothing to lessen your case against Western military interventions.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/2011825124849190250.html

So read this. I can't wait for you to tell me how Al-Jazeera is a pawn of NATO that wants to see the Middle East and its oil prostrated before Western imperialism.

Edited August 26, 2011 by maturin

[Tonci87 163]

Oh dont get me wrong, Ghaddaffi is a scumbag. He should have been taken care of long time ago. But I would like to see the other dictators crushed too (Syria)

[HyperU2 11]

One at a time. :)