New non-hitpoint based wounding

[-Coulum- 35]

So basically i find hit points a bit to "gamey". This is a system I would prefer to have in place. I'm not saying this is how arma should be just that I kind of think it would be interesting. Read and tell me what you think.

When a player is hit now he loses a set number of hit points based on the distance weapon/bullet and location of the hit. I do not believe there is any randomization. This means that with the same weapon and distance a hit to the arm will always deduct a given number of hit points. I think that this is unrealistic however as a hit to the arm will cause different degrees of damage deepending on factors not accounted for such as bones, nerve bundles blood vessels etc. An easy way to fix this a bit is to add a small random damage multiplier. Shots would inflict more varied results. But I was thinking it may be possible to drop the whole hit points idea altogether and make a new system.

There would be 5 different states a player can be in. Healthy, wounded, agony, incapacitated and dead. Healthy players suffer no negative effects and play as normal. Wounded suffer certain movement and aiming penalties. Players in agony are wounded but need immediate assistance in order to get back in the fight. Incapacitated would be essentially dead but they can be stabilized and medivaced to add more realism. They cannot be magically revived however. Dead players are simply dead.

A players state would not be determined by his hit points as it is now. Instead whenever a player is hit there is a chance that he will change status based on conditions already taken into account (distance, weapon, location of hit etc.) ie. If someone is shot by an m16 at 200 meters in the chest There is no set Amount of damage dealt. Instead he is forced to "check" his status. Depending on distance gun etc. The chances of him falling into each state is determined. In this case the chances might be 95% of becoming wounded, 50% of going into agony, 50% chance of being incapacitated and 5% chance of dying. Once a players status has been determined he goes on playing at his new status, assuming he survived. Further hits will cause Him to once again recheck his status. For anyone who has played ghost recon 1 I believe this type of system is used.

I think this system would deliver varied yet not unrealistic results and would give different weapon calibers a more subtle difference in stopping power instead of the definite "all or nothing" stopping power now portrayed in game.

I hope I sort of got my idea across. If not please ask me so I can try and explain it better. Do you think this type of system would be beneficial to the game?

[Steakslim 1]

I think this can go in the realm of the component driven damage system like what people what for vehicles, and i'm sure everyone would welcome a new non-hitpoint damage system altogether.

[maturin 12]

We already have location damage, so implementing a simple dice roll is child's play. The only thing that would need an engine upgrade is having separate hitpoint bars for the various limbs, so that getting hit in the leg doesn't deplete the central store.

[bradp191 10]

That sounds pretty good, but how would it handle cumulative damage? If you're "wounded" in more than one body part, you'd most certainly be in "agony". A burst of machine gun fire to the chest would incapacitate if not kill someone, but a probability-based system could, on occasion, result in each impact coming up "wounded". I'm a little more inclined toward your first idea right now.

The incapacitation idea would be very good. It would force leadership to deal with the logistics of evacuating casualties as well as the self/buddy/corpsman aid that the immediately effected troops would be dealing with. I think it would be more playable if incapacitated units could be restored to health at some kind of field hospital/trauma facility after a given amount of time. Even if this isn't included out of the box, it could be done with community mods.

[NeMeSiS 11]

We already have location damage, so implementing a simple dice roll is child's play. The only thing that would need an engine upgrade is having separate hitpoint bars for the various limbs, so that getting hit in the leg doesn't deplete the central store.

And while we are at it, also do that for vehicles. Would most likely improve the damage system by 100%.

In the case of infantry it would need some bleeding or something added though, otherwise you could be shot in the arms for an unlimited amount of times since it wouldnt deplete the 'central store'.

EDIT: Also, agony is more or less already in the game, turned on by modules.

[-Coulum- 35]

What exactly is component based damage?

We do have locational but I don't believe it is accurate enough as I mentioned above. It does not account for the small details that can vastly change the effects of a wound. In the system I suggest, the location of a shot will have an effect. Different body parts will have different chances of causing incapacitation, agony etc. This system would not do away with the crippling of limbs already in game either.

implementing a simple dice roll is child's play.

You may see it as childish and to a degree it is, but I feel that hit points in a simulator is even more so. Just my opinion however.

[twisted 128]

so suggestion is that if hit in chest there's 95% chance of wounding? what if hit in left hand side of chest where heart is?

this system looks good, but not sure how it would account for big caliber weapons hitting limbs or other madness that happens in war.

[maturin 12]

You may see it as childish and to a degree it is, but I feel that hit points in a simulator is even more so. Just my opinion however.

'Child's play' refers to something is extremely easy to accomplish, not something that is childish or silly. I was saying that adding randomized damage would not take much work or redesign by Bohemia, and should be accomplished as soon as possible.

[Montanaro 0]

wait...

You say if someone gets shot in the arm they should have an "aiming penalty"

that's been in the game since OFP, along with getting shot in the legs and you can't walk...

and you aren't always forced to crawl or have bad aim, sometimes you get lucky.

I've also shot people in the chest in the game and not killed them; certainly not "all or nothing" as you state.

So I really don't see what you are asking for.

buuuuuut I could see a few small tweaks just to update the damage model from OFP.

[-Coulum- 35]

@maturin - Totally misinterpreted what you meant. Sorry about that.

@twisted - if hit in the left side of the chest there would be an even higher chance of death. Higher caliber rounds would do the same. More chance of death. not sure what else would have to be "handled"?

This system would have to be combined with a bleeding system. That way It is possible to be survive several hits to the arm but you will bleed out very very fast as in real life. Bigger guns would cause faster bleeding. Also the effects of being wounded would have to be cumulative. The more shots in the arm you survive the shakier your arm will become.

@mantorano - I'm not really suggesting new penalties and states. There is already movement, aiming penalties etc. Implemented. The only new state I suggest is incapacitation and it wouldn't really change gameplay that much.

I don't think that you are sometimes spared being crippled now because of chance but rather because the shot was so distant that it did not take enough hit points away to cause the crippled effect.

All or nothing isn't really the right wording. I will use simplified numbers to demonstrate what I am meaning. A man has 10 hit points. An m16 will take away 5 points with each shot and an ak takes away 6. Even though the ak does more damage they are essentially the same as each one takes two hits to kill. Therefore higher damage weapons are not worth using unless they are so damaging they reduce the number of shots to kill. In my system the difference between guns like the m16 and ak would not be huge but the ak would tend to kill in less shots.

Edited July 11, 2011 by -Coulum-

[NeMeSiS 11]

I wonder how you are going to solve 'multiple hits in the arm' without hitpoints though. Currently the more wounded your arms are, the more they sway. Hitpoints basically give you a range from 'fine' to 'completely fucked up', which your 'wounded states only' system takes away.

I still think that Maturins way (current system, with random damage if thats not already in, and no damage to the 'central hitpoint store' which kills you if it reaches 1) is the best. Add bleeding and the modules and its perfect.

[-Coulum- 35]

I still think that Maturins way (current system, with random damage if thats not already in, and no damage to the 'central hitpoint store' which kills you if it reaches 1) is the best. Add bleeding and the modules and its perfect.

Yes this would definitely be good enough but I don't think it would account for enough of the many possibilities of wounding. For example. In your way a soldier will always be able to survive several rounds from a handgun. But what about that shot that hits just the wrong spot and causes the soldier to pass out due to pain. This kind of thing wouldn't ever be modeled. In the system I suggest there would always be that small chance of incapacitation.

The severity of shaky hands would be a problem however. The shake would increase after multiple hits but the severity of one hit would be hard to determine easily.

[NeMeSiS 11]

The severity of shaky hands would be a problem however. The shake would increase after multiple hits but the severity of one hit would be hard to determine easily.

I cant think of a reason not to use hitpoints for this.

Also, i imagined that bleeding would be cumulative, so if someone decides to rip your arms to shreds with a machine gun you would be dead soon anyway.

(Another way would be to leak some damage through to your overall health like the current system, but not as much as happens now)

I think that this is the most impartant part. A random chance of incapacitation is not something i am against, however to me it has a lower priority.

EDIT: Now that i think about it a bit longer, i think the random incapacitation is a good idea, however not as a replacement, but as an addition.

I think that completely losing the 'partly damaged' way with hitpoints cannot be replaced properly by a fixed state system.

EDIT2: Replace all incapacitations in this post with agony(Think modules in ArmA2, but by default), i dont see the point of incapacitation.

Edited July 11, 2011 by NeMeSiS

[bradp191 10]

Yeah, just think about the impact reversible incapacitation would have on multiplayer. You'd need a casualty plan, a dedicated CASEVAC asset, LZ marking equipment, and so on. That might already be possible with mods. I haven't played anything since Flashpoint, but I'll probably get back into it with this one. If incapacitation isn't reversible, then there's no incentive to evacuate the casualty. You might as well just write him off as dead. It should require a higher tier of care than a corpsman/medic, though.

[Windexglow 10]

You don't only need hp. If it was me, I'd split it into 2 major systems for health.

Each limb has components to it (mass density, covering armor) along with smaller components inside. Each component would have density, mass percentage, and values like blood flow. An artery would have a low mass percentage, but a high blood flow. A bone has high mass percentage, and multiplies the force from the bullet.

When a part is it, it also may hit sub-objects within it. The bigger the bullet, the higher the chance.

Blood - Blood loss can be fixed in field, however bigger flows may be impossible or require medic. As player loses blood certain tasks (lifting, running) may be harder. Severe blood loss takes the player out of the fight.

Destroyed Mass - the more severe and immediate effects. This is based on what the bullet hits, it's size, and velocity of it. Viewed more as a percentage for limbs, rather than hp. If you're in combat, the affect of being hit by a bullet would require more damage to have the same affect than if it came during safety.

A small caliber shot in the arm may result in little damage, or it could cause total loss (hit a bone).

I can dream..

Regardless, I hope arma3 has better indicators of where people are hurt, aside from "Can't walk" and a severe case of the hokey pokie.

[5LEvEN 11]

While there at it they could also improve the hit boxes as well... I have noticed some shots hit perfectly in the head (blood comes off head, point blank, 5.56) still does not kill sometimes. Don't know if its because of poor hit boxes, but whatever is causing that needs to be fixed.

[rye1 21]

That's hit locations/hit detection. Engine problem. =) Needs fixed.

[AstroMan 10]

I seriously wonder why we have a Wish list sometimes .....:rolleyes:

[EDcase 87]

I seriously wonder why we have a Wish list sometimes .....:rolleyes:

Keep your smart-ass sarcastic comments to yourself please.

The Mods will move it if they wish.

(Your sig says alot)

[dmarkwick 261]

What exactly is component based damage?

See the video posted in this thread.

I'm generally in favour of location-based damage :) as someone already observed, it's already somewhat implemented. I guess for gameplay purposes the incapaciteted state is not implemented, maybe a wounded module instead? SLX for ArmA2 has a great wounding system including incapacitation, but I can understand how someone who wishes to get on with playing might be frustrated at only being able to roll about the floor until something happens to help him. So yeah, better wounding, but module-based.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

This can be achieved very easily in Arma 2 with scripting. The problem is how to represent different types of wounds/damage. For example, a hit to the arms probably wouldn't be lethal, but it would definately effect your performance (perhaps make you drop your weapon).

[maturin 12]

While there at it they could also improve the hit boxes as well... I have noticed some shots hit perfectly in the head (blood comes off head, point blank, 5.56) still does not kill sometimes. Don't know if its because of poor hit boxes, but whatever is causing that needs to be fixed.

My tests lead me to believe that there is a helmet hitbox.

[Montanaro 0]

What exactly would be the gameplay purpose for "incapacitation?"

They have it in I44, and it's an okay feature, it gives medics a little bit more purpose. But generally it adds very little to single player, and only a little bit of extra fun to coop multiplayer.

[-Coulum- 35]

Incapacitation wouldn't add that much to gameplay directly. But mission makers could definitely use it to add to game play. In singleplayer Whenever someone becomes incapacitated an new objective could be created to medivac them or bring them to safety and stabilize them. As mentioned already, in multiplayer games after a player has been medivaced maybe it would be possible for him to be brought back to life and continue play. If you are playing singleplayer and you are the one that has been incapacitated there is absolutely no gameplay added. Might as well quit because you're as good as dead.

[maturin 12]

What exactly would be the gameplay purpose for "incapacitation?"

They have it in I44, and it's an okay feature, it gives medics a little bit more purpose. But generally it adds very little to single player, and only a little bit of extra fun to coop multiplayer.

Well for gameplay purposes I think incapacitation should be a more common version of the 'agony' state we have now. Force a slow crawl and no standing up, wobbly camera, extreme weapon shake with no aiming down sights, reloading or switching to launchers. That way you have a way to crawl to a medic, and a field full of defeated enemies can still be dangerous, as you have to mop up.