How many Helicopters

[rksl-rock 1300]

Ok, that's fine. I can understand if they modeled an MD-500 but it had no name, or some generic name, but they modeled it incorrectly. It's obviously meant to LOOK like an MD-500, but there are some obvious differences. I don't think copywright laws would apply here because there are MD-500s modeled for Flight Simulator. The Little Bird (A/MH-6) in the ArmA series is modeled correctly, why can't they do an accurate model of the civil variant? I don't think recreating something in a game constitutes a copyright violation. I could be wrong, but if it's true, then there are alot of people out there with the potential to get sued by MD Helicopters.

Its about not using people's branding, logos, trademarks/slogans and company names inappropriately or for commercial gain. Nothing more.

Recently in the US some companies (a very very small few) have taken out "nuisance" law suits against people making representations of their products. But if you actually look at the [ive only looked at ~5-6 that i know of myself] suits and the actual judgments you will see it all revolves around the unlicensed use of their actual logos and badges as well as the presentation (ie the company and product name as well as a mock advert in Toyota's case.) of the media.

BIS appear to be skating on the 'safer' side of the line and taking no chances since an injunction and delays caused by legal action can be very expensive. Its just easier all around.

[Beagle 684]

Thats the same approach the flight unlimited series handles it...half the aircraft in it had fantasy names because of no license.

DHC-2 "Beaver" was called "Muskrat"

B-58 "Baron" was called "Windhawk"

Cessna-172 was called "Trainer"

P-51 was simply called "Mustang"

The only planes with lincense and real names were Pipers in that game. The renamed aircraft often had a "modded" appearance as it happen in RL too...some owner modifie their aircraft quite heavily. Im hoping for some kind of Flight Unlimited IV with rotors.

The missions in FU where always unique and fun to fly. Ranging from rescue missions or volcano incidents to bigfoot search or freeing prisoners from Alcatraz VFR in pitch black night with a old seaplane or rescueing drunken russians off a havarized nuklear sub off the coast near San Francisco.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Beagle

[nightsta1ker 10]

Once again, they can skate around the issue by not using names or logos, but still model the aircraft correctly. As was pointed out already, the AH/MH-6 in ArmA is accurate. MD helicopters builds those. So why bastardize the MD500 civil model? The only reason I can think of that makes a shred of sense is what I stated above: They do not want to advertise realistic models because they will take flak if there are any errors. They can get around this by creating a completely fictional airframe with similar looks and behavior without getting needled by the hardcore guys for not being totally accurate.

[samb 15]

The only reason I can think of that makes a shred of sense is what I stated above: They do not want to advertise realistic models because they will take flak if there are any errors.

I would say making fictional models for a simulator makes a bigger reason to complain and they had to realise that. So my guess is they maybe didn't plan to produce a simulator at the begining and thougt no one will complain. They seem to have changed their mind fortunately for us:yay:

Sam

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Once again, they can skate around the issue by not using names or logos, but still model the aircraft correctly. As was pointed out already, the AH/MH-6 in ArmA is accurate. MD helicopters builds those. So why bastardize the MD500 civil model?

The most likely reason is to avoid a lawsuit from the company that makes the real aircraft. Although why this would be an issue now I don't know, as they have used realistic models in the past, and they also are careful not to use the real company names (Coyota anybody? :p) on the vehicles/aircraft.

*Edit* Also, they don't have to be exact copies, as TKOH is set in the ArmAverse....

[nightsta1ker 10]

Well you are running around my original point. Why change the visual model for TOH when they did not feel they needed to for ArmA? And who says they need to use the name brand in order to represent a model of helicopter? They could do an accurate visual model without violating any kind of copyright laws. The models are created by artists, therefore it falls under the artistic lisence. They can't be sued unless they use a trademarked name. No one said they need to have a trademark name or a logo on their model. They could make it look exactly like an MD-500 but call it the ND-500, or the XX-500, or the Retard-Blaster 9000. It shouldn't matter. So if you take that into account, copyright infringement does not seem like a good excuse either. So where does that leave us on the errors in the visual models? This is all speculation on ALL of our part until BIS says something on the matter, and at this point I am quite sure they must be laughing their @sses off. I suppose at some point we need to ask ourselves how much it really matters. I know I will still buy the game and probably enjoy it even if it has significant differences to the helicopters they are representing.

[JakeWed 10]

BIS is Most likely to use there old method of Slightly Changing the Name i Would think, as NightStalker said with the MD-500 being a ND-500 etc..

As right now we have Coyota's, HandOver Offenders and Many more 'Fake' Vehicles in ArmA

[.Taffy 10]

In line with the initial question of this thread, this article pretty much confirms there will be 15 helicopters in 3 categories.

Czech Article

http://games.tiscali.cz/prvni-dojmy/take-on-helicopters-prvni-dojmy-z-nove-hry-od-tvurcu-arma-55602

Translated by Deadfast

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1909052&postcount=272

[msimon 10]

@.Taffy

Nice one, good read that.

God i am looking forward to this, never been so exited for a game before.

[Macadam Cow 1]

latest interview

There will be three base classes (light, meduim, heavy). Each class will have at least one military - and a number of civil - variants

So far we have :

LIGHT :

• Civilian :
  MD500
  

• Military:
  AH/MH-6 ?

MEDIUM:

• Civilian :
  Bell 412

• Military :
  UH-1Y/N

HEAVY:

• Civilian :
  ?
  

• Military :
  Merlin

Edited May 13, 2011 by Macadam Cow

[soul_assassin 1723]

If the UH-1Y and the merlin are reused I think its also logical if a civvy Mi-8 will be present.

[slatts 1978]

also if theres SAR, im guessing the vbs2 sea king model might show up

[samb 15]

I wish for SeaKing to be included...

Sam

[nightsta1ker 10]

I wish for SeaKing to be included...

Sam

Don't wish too hard, it will turn out to be a half Seaking half something else...

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

And on that topic I STILL do not understand how they could model real aircraft for ArmA but not for their new game ABOUT helicopters?

[samb 15]

Lol You're actually right.

Sam

[Beagle 684]

Don't wish too hard, it will turn out to be a half Seaking half something else...

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

And on that topic I STILL do not understand how they could model real aircraft for ArmA but not for their new game ABOUT helicopters?

BI said somethign about tuning your Helicopters in game by spendign virtuel money...A lot of Aircraft are refitted with after market parts and look quite abit apart from factory models after it. I don't see where the problem is. In civil aviation rarely to aircraft look the same after a few years...the may have different Wheels, Fairings, Coolings, propellers, stabilizers, additional "Belly cargo pods" etc.

That might explain the differences from catalogue models.

[John1000 10]

What I want is Active Camera Walk and Follow.That Really Add Emersion!Maybe even Agumented Reality that gives you a Viritual Arm and Hand that makes it possible to adjust

the knobs of intruments.And I want to turn off anything that impact the FPS....And a Paint

Kit...And Force Feedback that can be tuned to Hard.

Autotune radiofrequence to other pilots near player in MP.Real Beacon Lights.

Tnx John1000

[nightsta1ker 10]

BI said somethign about tuning your Helicopters in game by spendign virtuel money...A lot of Aircraft are refitted with after market parts and look quite abit apart from factory models after it. I don't see where the problem is. In civil aviation rarely to aircraft look the same after a few years...the may have different Wheels, Fairings, Coolings, propellers, stabilizers, additional "Belly cargo pods" etc.

That might explain the differences from catalogue models.

As a 10 year veteran pilot and mechanic, I can tell you I know that no 2 aircraft are alike. This aside, I can look at an aircraft, even if it is heavily modified, and tell you what it is. None of the aircraft seen in the previews for TOH are even close to reality. They look like deliberate hybrids of several different models. The "light" helicopter variant looks like a combo between an EC 120 Colibri and an MD 500. The "medium" helicopter looks like a combo between a AW139 and a B212. I have not seen enough pictures of the "heavy" model to tell you what two aircraft they merged, but one of them appears to be a Merlin. There are enough significant differences to say that they are NOT any particular aircraft, however heavily modified. If you change the shape of the cabin on an MD 500 and put the T tail horizontal stabilizer somewhere on the tailboom instead then it's not a 500 anymore. It's something else.

Needless to say, there are a few people who are turned off by this lack of realism, especially after seeing how accurate other models have been in ArmA. I am quite sure there must be a reason they are doing this. Whatever their reason, I am not happy that realistic visual models will not be included and I know I'm not the only one.

Edited May 14, 2011 by nightsta1ker

[slatts 1978]

i think for now we should left them off slighty with models that arent right, i mean the game only announced not too long ago

[samb 15]

I agree with nightsta1ker all the way. It is still the only thing we know about game that makes me think if it is really going to be a good sim. BTW was it mentioned in any of the interviews so far? If not maybe developers could elaborate on it?

Sam

[nightsta1ker 10]

I agree with nightsta1ker all the way. It is still the only thing we know about game that makes me think if it is really going to be a good sim. BTW was it mentioned in any of the interviews so far? If not maybe developers could elaborate on it?

Sam

I have not read or heard anything about it.

[EricM 0]

I think it's due to a few factors :

- First, it's been said in an interview that the models are not licenced, hence the differences with their real counterparts I believe. So it could be a legal question.

- Then each chopper is supposed to represent some sort of "archetype" of helicopter, hence the possible mash-up of different similar looks and flight models. In this way, you don't have to be 100% accurate on everything down to the last screw (because someone will always find out something inaccurate), it can probably fit a wider range of scenarios (eg : why would they use this chopper in this region ? instead of...) and at last you can concentrate on the general experience instead of losing yourself in details...

- The more you push for realism, the more people will be nitpicking about the last 0,1%

Ãt's already the case in Arma (vs fictional games like COD or Carrier Command) and they maybe wanted to avoid that deliberately with these design decisions. If you complain about the battery switch being misplaced, they'll just say that in their model and in their universe (Armaversum), the switch is here, and the chopper flies this way, take it or leave it.

[bobocz 10]

Just my thoughts about non licensed helicopters.

Problem with licensing can be due to helicopter's crash, their random malfunctions, which was told will be simulated. No real manufacturer of helicopter want to see any failures on their machines. Other problem can be that in THOK will be helicopters with guns and people can shoot down their helicopter. Also it's sandbox game anybody can do anything, crash helicopter to crowd ....bad publicity. BI can't guarantee to not make it happen and manufacturer are now too sensitive.

Gran Turismo had big problem to persuade car makers to let their car damage in game and I think only last GT5 partly allowed it.

Now BI can do what they want with helicopters and nobody will them determinate what is still allowed.

added: I forget to mention probably the greatest problem, money :).

Edited May 18, 2011 by BoboCZ

[4 IN 1 0]

GT5 are mostly track racing, that acturally make it easier to get those licenses, one other example is Mafia 2, all cars are with fake name and none of them look 100% like their real life counterpart.

So there really not much choose left, we can, however, learn how to make addons for RV engine and fix it ourself... ... Or we can sent $10,000,000 donation to BI to fix this legal problem.

Edited May 18, 2011 by 4 IN 1

[samb 15]

I think it's due to a few factors :

- First, it's been said in an interview that the models are not licenced, hence the differences with their real counterparts I believe. So it could be a legal question.

Once again- were Arma models licenced (coz they are pretty damn accurate)? Somehow FSX payware and freeware addons developers release proper models w/o licence for years now- if licences were an issue; we'd hear about it at least once.

- Then each chopper is supposed to represent some sort of "archetype" of helicopter, hence the possible mash-up of different similar looks and flight models. In this way, you don't have to be 100% accurate on everything down to the last screw (because someone will always find out something inaccurate), it can probably fit a wider range of scenarios (eg : why would they use this chopper in this region ? instead of...) and at last you can concentrate on the general experience instead of losing yourself in details...

Why is each chopper supposed to represent "archetype" (is it Your opinion, or is it based on any of interviews)? They have three main gropus of helicopters (basically based on their weight/ size) and each gropup is going to be represented by COUPLE of helicopters- are they all going to be "archetypes" of each gropus? It seems not logical to me.

- The more you push for realism, the more people will be nitpicking about the last 0,1%

Ãt's already the case in Arma (vs fictional games like COD or Carrier Command) and they maybe wanted to avoid that deliberately with these design decisions. If you complain about the battery switch being misplaced, they'll just say that in their model and in their universe (Armaversum), the switch is here, and the chopper flies this way, take it or leave it.

No offence here mate, but it looks like a really .... excuse to me. Why not make 2d graphics then? The more You try to make good graphics the more people will be "nitpicking last 0.1%"! Why would they care about audio, physics, performance, accuracy of models (ow, wait). Don't You think it's better if it is 0.1% people complaining about one screw modelled 1mm wrong than 99% saying "wtf is wrong with that chopper; it's all messed up! If they spend time making accurate Seattle map, why would they make such mixed- up models! Wait I get it- they shouldn't have makde accurate Seattle, because the more they try, the more that 1% is going to complain.

Sam