A.I. gunner should not open hatch when player commander opens hatch

[roguetrooper 2]

When you as the player are the commander of a tank and have an A.I. gunner and you open your hatch then the A.I. gunner also opens his hatch automatically (and closes it when you close your hatch).

In this situation you can not fire or assign a target (since the gunner is not ready).

This is quite annoying. Especially with 3rd person view being disabled, you sometimes need to open your (commander's) hatch to gain a better view of the landscape. To assign a target and give order to fire, you need to shut your hatch first. It is even more annoying because your angle of view is not the same then as you had from your opened hatch; you need to turn your turret to have the same angle of view you recently had in your opened hatch.

Further, it would be great to be able to use binoculars as the commander with an opened hatch.

[Beagle 684]

Sorry to spoil your fantasy, bu in combat a modern MBT commander is NEVER unbuttoned..its a really BAD Idea to be unbuttoned when the main gun goes off or your Tank is moving in terrain...you will loose your teeth and ears.

Unbuttoned is for slow terrain driving in pratice conditions or at 50km/h max on roads only, also, there is no gain in awarreness with a open hatch...the commander has its own TI capable Periscope. The commander can practically oversteer the gunner and act as second gunner if needed from his seat using his control stick. While the gunner engages a target the commander uses the peri and FCS to designate the next target...he can't do this while has is picking up his lost teeth from the turret roof and fishing for his binos. btw standing next to a MBT that fires a life round can kill you if you're unlucky ... you see why?

btw. speaking as a former Leopard IIA4 crewmember (1992-1994)

Edited February 28, 2011 by Beagle

[kremator 1064]

I liked the picking up his lost teeth quote !

[Beagle 684]

I liked the picking up his lost teeth quote !

I Think I like this too because I lost a tooth on that damned hatch but the army won't pay now for a new implant because it happend 17 years ago. ;(

[bwc153 10]

Well, he mentions you can't even assign a target... that should be doable, but perhaps the firing should still remain as blocked for above-mentioned reasons.

[maturin 12]

Sorry to spoil your fantasy, bu in combat a modern MBT commander is NEVER unbuttoned..its a really BAD Idea to be unbuttoned when the main gun goes off or your Tank is moving in terrain...you will loose your teeth and ears.[/url]

btw. speaking as a former Leopard IIA4 crewmember (1992-1994)

Is volume really an issue? I have seen videos of tankers firing the main gun while the Commander is turned out.

[stk2008 14]

Its not volume you should be worried about its the air pressure that will smack you in your face like a brick wall.

[Beagle 684]

The volume and shock is indeed not comfortable but the reason for closed hatch is simple...the hatch could close unintended in the moment the whole tank is shaken by the recoil. The newer Leos have a sliding hatch and I don't now if the safety order is still the same but I would think it is.

In past times there was often a siply reason for open hatches...the lack of proper air conditioning.

25/03/2003 a british challenger tank of the Queen's Royal Lancers was lost to friendly fire The commander had the hatch open and the ammo inside ignited from the impact explosion of a HESH round.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Beagle

[dreday 1]

Begale makes some excellent points regarding the current generation of AFVs. However, prior to the advancement of the modern FC/Observation systems, unbuttoning was definitely a legitimate tactic in order to gain better situational awareness.

Also, we have to consider that the same in-game behavior is displayed by all the armored vehicles, including those where the unbuttoned commander should be relatively safe during the operation of the main weapon (i.e. BMP-2). In game terms, I see no particular reason for the gunner to unbutton along with the TC.

Peace,

DreDay

BTW, I am in no way discounting what Beagle is saying and I am far from an ultimate authority on AFVs... but here are a couple of videos that I was able to quickly find on youtube that show the tanks firing their main guns with the unbuttoned crew...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ep5jM9P7lg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq929f1-SyQ

Edited March 1, 2011 by DreDay

[Beagle 684]

Begale makes some excellent points regarding the current generation of AFVs. However, prior to the advancement of the modern FC/Observation systems, unbuttoning was definitely a legitimate tactic in order to gain better situational awareness.

Also, we have to consider that the same in-game behavior is displayed by all the armored vehicles, including those where the unbuttoned commander should be relatively safe during the operation of the main weapon (i.e. BMP-2). In game terms, I see no particular reason for the gunner to unbutton along with the TC.

Peace,

DreDay

BTW, I am in no way discounting what Beagle is saying and I am far from an ultimate authority on AFVs... but here are a couple of videos that I was able to quickly find on youtube that show the tanks firing their main guns with the unbuttoned crew...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ep5jM9P7lg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq929f1-SyQ

It's about safety regulations, you will not find a german MBT doing so. German army was until this year a drafted army with short service and training times, so risk reduction is a big deal here. In fact it is very stramnge that the Gunner on the M1 in arma does not unbutton ...the still moving turret would decapiate the driver. For driving with all open hatches the turret is usually arrested in a safe position. This is depicted in arma only right for the T-72 albiet the rest postion in russian tanks als with the gun pointing to the side a few degrees. Edited March 1, 2011 by Beagle

[roguetrooper 2]

Hmm, the ability to make the gunner fire with opened commander-hatch seems to differ from tank to tank (in Arma).

Another thing worth to be (re?)considered is the movement of the commander's periscope when the turret turns. When you're aiming with your commander-turret at a target and order the gunner to target that target, the periscope is moved as well, turning away from the target. That's also a bit annoying.

Independently from that, being able to use binoculars from an opened hatch would be great however.

Edited March 1, 2011 by RogueTrooper

[Beagle 684]

Hmm, the ability to make the gunner fire with opened commander-hatch seems to differ from tank to tank (in Arma).

Another thing worth to be (re?)considered is the movement of the commander's periscope when the turret turns. When you're aiming with your commander-turret at a target and order the gunner to target that target, the periscope is moved as well, turning away from the target. That's also a bit annoying.

Independently from that, being able to use binoculars from an opened hatch would be great however.

Not all commander peris are stabilized. And I undertand the desire to turn out, but you have to agree that doing this in a hostile environment is not a bright action, so I can live with the limitations in the game. Notice that Infantry will start to fire immediately at the turned out crew and a tank is in no way stealthy. You are forced to keep moving or your'r just a big target. Unfortunatly ArmA II does not allow a surveillance mode thats allows turret movement without main engine running on battery or APU. We used Leopard II A4 in the recon role, thats should show that they can operate fairly undetected if its done the right way. Edited March 1, 2011 by Beagle

[lugiahua 26]

problem in Arma is that TC has no periscopes, he is forced to use the remote weapon system while inside, and it only has very limited FOV.

[spooky lynx 73]

I think tank commander should really have ability to unbutton alone, but for only one reason - to fire machinegun (M2 or NSV/DShK).

[Ripsaw5165 10]

Its a game. In a sense you're looking through two periscopes, the first one is your 2D (Two Dimensional) monitor screen, the second one is the simulated 2D one the game renders as the TC's periscope. Removing one or the other tends to help SA, and since you can't remove your monitor from the equation and still play, perhaps it helps compensate for the 2D nature of gaming on a PC to be able to set targets while turned out as TC. Just an observation. Not disputing the real world implications, just saying that the wider FOV when turned out may help compensate for the 2D factor. Someday when we have full fidelity 3D holographic immersive gaming this factor will no longer matter.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Ripsaw5165

[johncage 30]

actually, when you turn out, everyone else turns out, including the driver. the reason you're forced to turn in when you give an order to fire is because then you enter combat mode and it's dangerous having your head out while the guns are firing.

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

problem in Arma is that TC has no periscopes, he is forced to use the remote weapon system while inside, and it only has very limited FOV.

Yeah, thats sort of the down side since there are no internal views inside every heavy tank ingame. If all the tanks inside where like the (ingame) Bradley driving seat, or the M113 driving seat. Where the multi side windows, or whatever they are called, are fully functional it would be the best choice. I love the quality on the BTR90, which has full interior graphics, but even that one dosent have functional view windows like the M113.

Btw Beagle in ACE you can shut down the engine while running the turret on battery. CF tournament also have a OA tanks that can do that.

[Beagle 684]

Where the multi side windows, or whatever they are called, are fully functional...

These are periscopes, simply angled mirrors with bulletresistant glass blocks so your viewpoint to outside is actually a good 20cm higher. This is not modeled in ArmA so its look like "windows".

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

These are periscopes, simply angled mirrors with bulletresistant glass blocks so your viewpoint to outside is actually a good 20cm higher. This is not modeled in ArmA so its look like "windows".

I know that. You would probably need render to texture to do the periscope effect, but its allot better than just the "mail box" opening and it gives you more overview of the surroundings, not forcing you to turn out in some vehicles, while also being more realistic than the "mail box" slot.