An Inconvenient Truth... All units announced as "Unknown" turn out to be Enemy!

[madrussian 347]

I just made what appears to be a terrible discovery. Please someone tell me it isn't so! :eek:

So I was messing around with knowsabout when I noticed these three count commands (way back from OFP apparently):

countUnknown

countFriendly

countEnemy

Kind of intriguing... so I set about to doing some experimentation.

In the editor I created one West soldier as the player and put one other West man in his group, way on the other side of the map (just so the player unit would have someone to reveal targets to). I created three target soldiers (one East, one West, one Civ).

Then I wrote a small script to try and determine the knowsabout value the moment a target is revealed (changes from a "Unknown" to an "Enemy", etc):

MRU_Hint = compile preprocessFile ("Library\MRU_Hint.sqf");
MRU_HintS = compile preprocessFile ("Library\MRU_HintS.sqf");

_TEST = {
sleep 3;
_lowestEnemyKA = 0;
_lowestDist = 0;
while {true} do
{
	_countFriendly = player countFriendly [Loon];
	_countEnemy = player countEnemy [Loon];
	_countUnknown = player countUnknown [Loon];
	_playerKnowsaboutSubject = player knowsabout Loon;
	_dist = player distance Loon;
	if ( (_countEnemy == 1) and (_lowestEnemyKA == 0) ) then
	{
		_lowestEnemyKA = _playerKnowsaboutSubject;
		_lowestDist = _dist;
	};
	sleep 0.01;
	// Simple Hint:
	["_countFriendly","_countEnemy","_countUnknown","_playerKnowsaboutSubject","","_lowestEnemyKA","_lowestDist"] call MRU_HintS;
};
};

[] spawn _TEST;

// Note - Script changes slightly based on the subject of the test

Test 1 - The Enemy East unit

Enemy unit is placed at a great distance away from the player. As expected, he starts out being registered by the countUnknown command. (Note if you don't add a minor delay prior to detection like my sleep 3, then for a split second he'll be registered by countEnemy due to initialization etc, prior to being registered by countUnknown.)

As this point, I the player (again a West unit), place my crosshairs on the man and perform a series of manual "Reveal target"s on him (remapped to make things easier). The moment the knowsabout get's bigger than zero, my player unit correctly verbally identifies that enemy man as "Unknown". As I continue to perform manual "Reveal target" and edge ever closer, the knowsabout value gets bigger, again as expected. At a knowsabout value of 0.225002 (probably 0.225 due to rounding errors), and (incidentally) a distance of 295.806m, two things happen simultaneously:

1. The player unit correctly verbally identifies that enemy man as Enemy

2. The enemy man is no longer registered by countUnknown, and is now registered by countEnemy. Everything good so far!

Test 2 - The Friendly West unit

This time, the friendly unit starts out and continues to be registered by countFriendly, even though he's extremely far away and knowsabout is 0. Just to be sure I restart the mission with the friendly unit all the way across the map, with plenty of hills, etc in between. Same result, registered by countFriendly, even though the player unit has no way of knowing about him. :confused:

Then I restart the mission with the friendly unit in view but very far away, and as with the Enemy East unit test, I do a series of manual "Reveal target"s as I get closer and closer. Only this time, when the knowsabout value gets bigger than 0, it jumps straight to 1.6, and most importantly the player unit does not verbally announce anything! No announcement of Unknown or Friendly... nothing! :butbut:

Test 3 - The Friendly Civ unit

Results are identical to the Friendly West unit test, except for that if the Civ unit starts out of view, he is registered by countUnknown, until the knowsabout value goes above 0, at which point he's registered by countFriendly. Again though, no verbal announcements are made at any point as to his Unknown or Friendly status. :confused:

Conclusion:

Anyone verbally announced as "Unknown" is the enemy. Kill them!!!

In any event, I'm really hoping I've missed something here and it's not really this way. Maybe someone can manage to disprove some of my apparent results? :)

That or perhaps BIS can start looking into a fix for this. After all, what's the use of having an "Unknown" status anyway, if you automatically know they are all really Enemy?

Edit - Updated Conclusion:

Based on my own tests (originally provided above in detail) and anecdotal evidence provided by others on this thread, I am revising my conclusion slightly:

Anyone verbally announced by the player unit as "Unknown" is the enemy. Kill them!!!

Hopefully we can get some resolution here...

Edited February 17, 2011 by MadRussian

[kremator 1065]

Nice find MadRussian !

Here's hoping it can be fixed.

[dwringer 45]

That or perhaps a fix on the part of BIS. After all, what's the use of having an "Unknown" status anyway, if you automatically know they are all really Enemy?

After reflection that would have to be my guess.

I am almost positive I have seen AI squad mates of mine refer to other friendlies as "Unknown" when I have been messing around in the editor on past occasions. Though that isn't scientific by any means, if that's what they're doing then it would indicate at least some of what you have tested and found is unique to the player.

I guess that way the player is only allowed to call out unknown enemy targets to avoid situations in which someone is spotting an enemy far away in a group of civilians, the radio message plays, and the player decides that the target has been revealed and no further spotting is necessary, but in reality the unit that got spotted was one of the civilians. The way it is now, that can't happen - you won't know you spotted the target until the message plays, which guarantees that you've spotted an enemy.

[ArmAriffic 10]

Oh my god!!!!! :)

[Koni 3]

I have had my AI units say "Unknown Man" and they have turned out to be civilians before.

[wobbleyheadedbob 10]

Yeah, back in the OFP days there was a mission in the singleplayer campaign where you were a pilot shot down behind enemy lines. You had to navigate back to friendly territory in the black of night with no NV, anyhoo I saw some friendlies and ran as fast as I could and then... they opened fire and killed me.

I tried this a couple of times to see if it was a bug and noticed it happening often in night time missions when encountering 'unkown' friendly forces.

You may be correct that 'Unkowns' are targetted as enemy.

[madrussian 347]

Thanks for weighing in guys. :)

Well if indeed AIs can still identify unknown civs (and I haven't tested that), that's something, but then we're left with:

1. Any target player identifies as Unknown is actually Enemy and should be shot on sight!

2. Friendlies are never announced as anything? (i.e. not by player or AI?)

...If confirmed, both of these are still very bad imo.

Another test I ran in the mean time:

Test 4 - Empty vehicle

Yet another distinct result. If placed out of view, upon startup empty helo is registered with countUnknown. Upon the player seeing it, as with the civ man, empty helo then registers with countFriendly. However, where as at this point the civ man was not announced at all, the empty helo is announced... but only via chat message!!! (i.e. Empty helo not verbally announced.)

This is truly fascinating stuff. :D

edit:

btw - I wonder if the issue goes all the way back to OFP? Curious what you guys think?

You may be correct that 'Unkowns' are targetted as enemy.

I suppose that might be happening (no current test to prove it though). Might be kind of cool actually, in situations such as jumpy soldiers in the middle of the night, etc.

But to get very specific here, my discovery seems to be simply that the player can glean info he shouldn't be able to glean on who is Enemy based on the "Reveal target" mechanism... specifically the inferences he can make based on what his unit (and quite probably the AI) announces verbally.

Edited February 17, 2011 by MadRussian

[tswords 10]

in response to AI Friendly Fire...

i had set up a nightime mission in the BIS Desert Environment where i was a sniper on the one hill, calling in arty support on enemy tanks and such to the north, and then activating a switch trigger on a platoon of friendly M1s to flank the enemy armor and destroy them.

funny part is everything was going great, the M1s wiped out the T-72's....

....and then shot me and my spotter. i guess range and nighttime have something to do with it.

the funny part is that the T-72s didnt even shoot at me...the friendlies went out of their way to blow me up lol

[Beagle 684]

I have tested this out the last hours and had a lots of "unknown" contacts reported turn out as friendly or civilian, including a friendly fire incindent by A.I. killing me approaching in a captured enemy vehicle.

So its simply not true that unknow turns out always as enemy.

Not using any mods.

[-)rStrangelove 0]

Might be interesting to see if your AI squad mates call 'Unknowns' out in a different way.

The 'instant enemy reveal' is something that worries me the most. If alert scripts dont use the delay suggested by MadRussian it means your friendly AI could 'see' any enemies that are spawned in a mission, even if they're on the other side of the island.

[madrussian 347]

Interesting Beagle... good to hear that you are experiencing AI identifying friendlies as unknowns. That wasn't part of my testing, but it does make me feel a bit better about all this for now.

In any event, I did repeat my results several times before posting this find. Read back through exactly what I did, try it exactly as written, and see if you don't agree. Note I was using exactly one AI in the player group, and placed him all the way on the other side of the map, just so I (the player) could "Reveal target"s to him. Thus no AI was identifying anyone as part of any of my testing.

So, there is a chance it's just like in dwringer's theory, where "the player is only allowed to call out unknown enemy targets", which imo would be a signifigant issue. This whole thing needs some more investigation for sure. If someone can prove my claim wrong with a very specific controlled method, I'll definitely revisit my test cases and have yet another look. On this type of thing, indeed I hope somehow I'm proven wrong. Cheers. :)

[zapat 56]

Hmm, it is interesting. I've been running a lot of tests on helis bringing troops to the battlefield ( so there are only west guys on the map and lot of them), and many times Player says "unknown", when a heli lands further away.

What I experienced but didn't test is that "unknown" shouts are a lot more rare and hectic, but exist.

[Fireball 16]

MadRussian, I can confirm, that AI identifies friendlies as "Unknown Man" at times.

OTOH, what I can confirm, that if your AI guys call out an unknown man which is in fact an enemy (but they can't know it at this time), they open fire already. Maybe this has more something to do with the fact that they don't call out one person twice.

One more distinct difference between unknown friendlies and unknown enemies (what a paradox) is that they call out "Unknown Man" for not precisely identified allies or civillians, but they call out "Unknown <something>" but never "... Man" for what turns out to be enemy, so basically AI already know what's running/sitting there and it's only poorly disguised by the engine.

[dwringer 45]

I am still almost positive I have seen AI identify other friendly AI as "unknown", just make a big DAC zone of friendly groups and walk around with a squad and see what they say.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see this second page. I was a few hours late hahah.

[maturin 12]

Civilians and Empty vehicles/launchers can be Unknown.

[madrussian 347]

Hey thanks for the responses! :) I've done some extensive additional testing on this issue...

The results encompass far more than just this topic specifically: Here's the new thread.

EDIT:

OK guys, I think I've made sense of all this.

Thanks again for the insight so far... every little piece of info has helped me figure out what to look for. Advise reading through the entire 1st post on that other thread and then come back for my conclusion on this issue:

In the beginning, I made the claim that "Unknowns always end up Enemy", or something to that effect. It's a bit more complicated than that. In the other thread I talk in length about a Troop Marker System I have developed to gain insight into exactly what's going on. With this system, I can see visually via marks on the map, exactly who the player knows about and who he doesn't, all in real time.

First off, some terminology. As far as I can tell, there are two main types of Reveals:

1. Silent Reveal - One unit is revealed to another and no one says anything audible.

2. Audible Reveal - One unit is revealed to another and it gets announced verbally.

Note that in simply playing the game, you would probably only be aware of Audible Reveals. However, there are Silent Reveals going on all the time though, behind the scenes, and you can track them via countFriendly, countEnemy, and countUnknown. My Troop Marker System tracks (among other things) Silent Reveals and visually displays the results on the map via markers. (Note I am not using any mods except CBA and a small mod that adds some simple markers to MarkersCfg.)

Turns out there are a LOT of reveals that go on silently, and you only audibly hear a small fraction of them. That's a good thing too, because otherwise it would overwhelm you're radio! :D

What my research has proven to me is that vehicles and unmounted footmen of same-side friendlies start out and remain as known. Now, people have made claims that unknowns have turned out to be friendlies. I have come up with two distinct cases where that can happen:

1. When a friendly same-side footmen dismounts, he remains unknown for a brief moment. That's when he might get audibly revealed as unknown. After that brief moment though (weather audibly revealed or not), no matter where he is or if anyone can see him, he will become known to the player!!! :eek:

2. My testing has revealed that friendly NON-same-side units go by a different set of rules. That may be the source of some of the claims that unknowns end up as friendlies.

Now, in extensive testing, I have never had an AI audibly reveal a civilian. I know some of you claim you've seen it happen, and it probably has. But I did run a test with a gigantic civilian army coming over the hill towards my group (me the player and a single AI). He silently revealed everyone, one at a time. But none of those was audible. And we talking ~30 foot civs and ~30 civ vehics. So if it happens, it's hardly ever, and possibly, it has to do with dismounting per previous point about same-side friendlies.

So after everything I've seen, I'll no longer claim that "Unknowns always turn out to be Enemy". But I will say with high confidence that an extremely high percentage of Unknowns turn out to be enemy. Those that don't are the rare exception.

In any event, I hope that BIS views this as a real issue worthy of some kind of resolution. :)

Edited February 25, 2011 by MadRussian