The Battle for Bomb Alley (BBC Mon 31 Jan 08:30 pm)

[walker 0]

Hi all

A documentry about the US Marines of Lima company in Sangin is on Panorama on the BBC TV tonight: Mon 31 Jan 08:30 pm

The Battle for Bomb Alley.

For four years, thousands of British servicemen fought with the Taliban for the district of Sangin - the most violent part of Afghanistan. The fighting cost 106 British lives, including Staff-Sergeant Olaf Schmidt, who won the George Cross there.

Last year, the British withdrew - handing the area over to the US Marines. Ben Anderson, who was with the British forces in 2007, returns to see if the Americans are faring any better. His remarkable film follows Lima Company, a unit of the US Marines, as they dodge improvised bombs and struggle to reclaim the same territory the British previously occupied.

As the war enters its tenth year, with Sangin still far from secure, real questions remain as to what so many British men died there for.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00yc4ff

As Always follow the link to the original text in full

It will also be available on BBC IPlayer.

There is an Exerpt here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9379000/9379995.stm

Kind Regards walker

[Rindier 10]

people dont realize what this conflict is about. First off and i mean no disrespect but were not fighting against a country, were fighting a religion. One that openly teaches hate against catholics and jews. Im not saying they ALL believe this but most extreamists do. Also people make a big deal out of loosing 106 lives. Why dont we go to war with russia? theyll be beging for the 106 back in a week vs 106,000

[warrior2seven 10]

Also people make a big deal out of loosing 106 lives.

That there is the most screwed up thing I have heard on these forums.

I would go on about how wrong your statement is, but if 106 lives is no big deal to you, whats the point.

[paplate 10]

Seems like it'll be pretty interesting. It'll be on the iPlayer same time as it premieres on TV right? I'm in America, and we don't get BBC One here. :(

[walker 0]

Hi Rindier

I am sorry but I disagree. It is not about Religion it is about a Political group masquerading as a Religion, in the hope of fooling its enemies and targets into attacking the religion it masquerades as, so that they may scoop up those affronted, as pawns.

Did you Even know Bin Laden is Wahhabi?

Did you know Al Qaeda is Wahhabi?

Did you know the Madras's that taught the Taliban were Wahhabi?

Did you Even know that the Imams all the Al Qaeda terrorists on 9/11 were under before their attack were Wahhabi?

Did you know that Alexandria Virginia USA is known as the Wahhabi corridor? The same Wahhabi corridor the US citizens from Alexandria Va. who were captured in Pakistan came from.

I guess you know that like Maj. Nidal M. Hasan, the Imam of Sharif Mobley was Anwar al-Aulaqi. You know also the Time Square bomber was in contact with Anwar al-Aulaqi. Try using goggle Anwar al-Aulaqi is clearly listed as being Wahhabi.

Wahhabi is NOT a even a religion

Wahhabi is NOT a even a valid religion, and is so anti Islamic that they want to, and have actually made attempts to blow up the Muslim Prophet Mohamed's grave. And Have killed more Muslims than they have non muslims.

Wahhabism is to Islam what the Ku Klux Klan is to Christianity.

Did you know Wahhabi Saudi Arabia shreds the Koran's of people entering Saudi Arabia for the Hajj, who do not come from Saudi Arabia?

Only Wahhabi approved Korans printed in Saudi Arabia are allowed.

Notably, the state bans the importation of Korans published elsewhere. When foreign pilgrims arrive at the Saudi border by the millions for the annual journey to Mecca, what happens to the non-Saudi Korans they are carrying? The border guards confiscate them, to be shredded, pulped, or burned. Beautiful bindings and fine paper are viewed as a particular provocation--all are destroyed.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/005/642eforh.asp

Wahhabi Korans tend to be the ones that include non Koranic additions that include exhortations to attack and kill Christians, Jews and any person [ Insert person Wahhabi's want to kill here ] including other Muslims, usually all covered under the Wahhabi concept of takfir which does not appear in the true Koran.

The Source of terrorism then is Wahhabism not Islam and Al Qaeda is its tool.

A little history

There were many fingers in the creation of the Al Qaeda pie.

The Key players at beginning were

1) President Carter and Democratic Congressman Charlie Wilson of the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense (the black ops budget is mostly hidden here) who came up with the idea of using Afghanistan to do a Vietnam on the USSR.

2) President Reagan and then Vice President Bush who enacted Carter's policy in the form of Wilson's Operation Cyclone.

3) The US took part in many forms; look out for the book and film "Charlie Wilson's War".

A simple example is a certain CIA and former US Special Forces soldier and double agent who trained Bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and most of the senior people in what would become Al Qaeda in covert warfare, improvised explosives, kidnapping and assassination. In all honesty he was one of many agents and not just US special forces were there.

He goes by the names Ali Abdul Saoud Mohamed, Ali Abdelsoud Mohammed and Ali Mohammed AKA "al-Amriki" (The American) among others. Some sources say he was born in Egypt and served as an Egyptian army military intelligence officer and is supposed to have served in the same unit as assassinated Egyptian President Sadat.

4) Saudi Wahhabi factions. The money men. These are the people that really controlled what was and is going on, when they realised what they had been given.

5) The Pakistan ISI

And various other bit part players; the mixing pot for all these was Maktab al-Khadamat.

Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK)

MAK was founded by the Palestinian Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Azzam to bring together various experienced "fighters" really palestinians to fight the Russians in Afghanistan but was quickly financially controlled by the Saudis and their placemen the financial administrator Bin Laden and the Egyptian leader of the Wahhabi, Muslim Brotherhood, Ayman al-Zawahiri. The ISI's role in the mujaheddin was wide and varied but they never had a controlling position in MAK or the Wahhabi Madrasahs.

The ISI's role there was training and facilities provision and to act as an intermediary along with the Pakistan Army for US weapons bought by Saudi and other Muslim organisations and charities under the guise of helping refugees. The total number of foreign fighters in all the Foreign Mujaheddin was only around 35,000 but this was dwarfed by the Quarter of a Million Afghan Mujaheddin. And MAK was a small organisation in the whole mujaheddin, numbering only some 2000, mostly foreign fighters, a mix of terrorists scooped up and sent to Pakistan by various Muslim governments wanting rid of them and the usual starry eyed young fools out to make a name for themselves in some romantic vision of war.

To the ISI MAK was just a small cog in the wheel. What MAK did have was lots of money and facilities to recruit: radicalised brainwashed students; the Taliban. Pakistan ignored this thinking it would disappear once the war was over.

And when the Afghan War was over Pakistan found it had a cuckoo in the nest.

The Saudis and the other Arab nations did not want their Terrorists back especially now they were battle hardened and trained by the west's top special forces.

A few were allowed to return and few went back to being doctors teachers and shopkeepers but that hard core were not wanted by their countries. Some went off to Chechnya and the Balkans. About 300 plus with financial backing from the Saudi, Pakistan and American Governments were given Sudanese passports, some of these also went back to being doctors, teachers and shopkeepers in Sudan and a few other Arab countries, always watched by their respective security services. Yet others actually joined those security services but many others, forced to remain out of their homelands, kept up their old ways and created radical organisations and others not being able to fit in fell back into those same old ways. Eventually Sudan kicked them out after they tried to kill the Egyptian president while he was on a state visit to Ethiopia.

The physical formation of Al Qaeda

They returned to Pakistan by various routes and linked up with those who remained in the Tribal Areas. MAK started to fracture and its Palestinian leader Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Azzam was assassinated in 1989 during a fratricidal putsch that left Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri in charge. This was when Al Qaeda was physically formed and when they broke with the palestinians.

The training Al Qaeda had been given as MAK along with its financial links to the ISI gave Al Qaeda a lot of power. Pakistan wanted rid of them. So the ISI teamed Al Qaeda up with Mohamed Omar a member of a small Afghan Mujaheddin. The Saudi Government provided the money and a mass of white Toyota pick-ups, technicals. And they sent them off to supposedly restore law and order in Afghanistan.

The Pakistanis and Saudi Government probably thought this ragtag band of a few thousand would die in Afghanistan, but they had forgotten about the Taliban.

Mohamed Omar came to power as he had been stopping at a Wahhabi Madrasah across the border in Kandahar and became one of the part time "teachers" there; which is where he gets the appellation Mullah. His small Afghan Mujaheddin was considered as minute and ineffective, so he was the obvious choice for the ISI to team up with the Bin Laden the Money man and Ayman al-Zawahiri and the terrorists and radical Wahhabi preachers who ran the Madrasahs under their fellow Mullah Mohamed Omar. Taliban translates from the Pashto to "Student" so their origins was as students in the Wahhabi Madrasahs.

In fact the ISI had underestimated or completely forgotten all those radicalised kids who were now placed under the control of Mullah Mohamed Omar. Thus began the Taliban. The army the Pakistanis unleashed was not the two or three thousand it had expected; it was the more than quarter of a million Afghan children, in their black school uniforms and now coming of age, who had been brain washed and radicalised in the madrasahs, to follow every command of their Wahhabi terrorist Mullahs.

At first they were welcomed as returning children of the Mujaheddin and they got rid of the warlord-ism but people soon realised that all these black clad school uniformed robot kids had a very different view of Islam and the world to their fathers but their was an awful lot of them and were very fanatical in battle as well as when policing the streets.

Thus began the darkest phase of the Al Qaeda plan.

PATRICIDE AND THE AFGHAN NIGHT OF THE LONG KNIVES

All those Refugee Kids, the sons, of the true mujaheddin who had beaten the Russians, were sent into Afghanistan to kill their own fathers and the Wahhabis did it laughing into their beards. Thus they enlarged the power vacuum which the Wahhabi Arabs and Mullahs, fitting like the glove it was designed as, easily filled.

The Political Roots of Wahhabism

Wahhabism is primarily a political and legal tool that was used as the pretext for the formation of the state of Saudi Arabia. It is based on the falicy of Takfir. Takfir as a legal opinion was created by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab a lawyer whos family married into the Saud family. The Takfir Legal Opinion known as the Kitaab At-Tawheed was used to give a "legal basis" for the Saud family taking land off other muslims; by declaring them Takfir and thus suposedly not muslims and therefor legaly the Saud family could kill them and or enslave them and disposses them of their land.

Similar methods have been used in many Feudal societies; in the UK the Enclosures is an example. It even happens today, in the UK the present government intend to sell off the land owned by the general public as forrest at a loss, without first consulting the shareholders in a shareholder vote (referendum). Heck the West plants flags in places and say right we own this place.

How a legal opinion written in high faluting Arab legal prose becomes a religeous text is beyond me, but I supose it is just because it is written in prosaic legal Arabic and so to any Pashto speaking or iliterate fool or starry eyed convert it looks like a wholy grail. "Whhooo!", says the snake oil salesman; "This is the real stuff, cures arthrightous, baldness, cancer, heart disease, coughs and colds, erection problems, blindness and any other ailment! AND! It is good for cleaning windows!"

The Takfir falicy's concepts of Wahhabism being a little lacking in philosophy and reason to attack others outside Saudi Arabia were then extended to include the writings of Sayyid Qutb founder of the Muslim Brotherhood from which Ayman al-Zawahiri comes. It is in the writings of Sayyid Qutb that the philosophical basis of Wahhbism was extended from just a mistaken and false legal opinion to include everyone else as Takfir thus creating the philosophical basis for Al Qaeda, and its hatred of the west freedom and democracy.

It is in the Takfir that Wahhabism makes clear its true anti Islamic nature:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism#Takfir

This then is the basis for the Wahhabi's trying to take over the world and place it under its domination. Which they are pursuing using thir access to oil wealth.

Did you know that the Saudi Wahhabis now fund: orphanages, Schools and Madrasahs throughout the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Palestine and the rest of the world with one requirement; that the ideas taught to the children are Wahhabi?

Did you know Saudi Arabia uses Wahhabism to infiltrate other nations but could never start the sect in Iraq because Saddam Hussein kept the Wahhabi sect out of Iraq?

And that within a month of Cheney signing off on allowing Wahhabism into Iraq, Al Qaeda in Iraq was formed and American soldiers began to die as a result?

Wahhabi Al Qaeda regularly blows up Shia mosques in Pakistan and Iran, and has killed tens of thousands of Muslims even at prayer. It has even started blowing up the Sunni mosques of those who refuse to help it.

Even Hamas broke with the Wahhabi's who run Al Qaeda more than two decades back and threw them out of Palestine.

Whahhabi Al Qaeda (Translates to "The base" from which the plan is enacted) has two main political goals:

A)Creation of a Wahhabi Caliphate.

This means Wahhabi control of the Muslim world. They are achieving this with the active support of Saudi riyals to fund Madrasahs around the world to promulgate this blasphemous interpretation of Islam.

B)Access to an Wahhabi Nuclear Weapon via four possible routes:

1) Russia and the former soviet empire: Use cash and buy them. Unlikely.

2) China: Do a deal as per Russia Unlikely.

3) Iran: Get America and or Israel to attack and then offer to do the dirty as retaliation for their "Muslim brothers" or steal them in the confusion. With Iran's hatred of Al Qaeda this is very doubtful, but the confusion of a war might offer the opportunity.

4) Pakistan, the easiest:

Destabilise it, infiltrate its power structures, control its education, control its finances in key areas with Saudi Wahhabi money.

Controlling Pakistan

The Wahhabi's Pakistan control Project

Now they have moved to the next phase of the plan; control of an Arab nuclear bomb by taking over Pakistan:

Back to the history and Why the history matters:

A quick recap: After the fall of MAK Afghanistan was chosen as Al Qaeda's initial base for several reasons:

1. They were already there!

2. Afghanistan was a political vacuum ripe for the picking

3. They had established financial control of a quasi military organisation; the Taliban

4. They had a financial support network from both the Arab and Muslim world

5. They had the infrastructure for a covert operations element; the Al Qaeda Franchise

6. They had established financial control of a recruiting structure the Madrasahs in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

7. They have since also established financial controls over the Pakistan ISI, using Saudi moneyed projects to create an addiction to Saudi Oil money, which they control the taps to.

8. They have also infiltrated control elements of the Pakistan ISI via, education indoctrination, sponsoring suitable candidates etc. and by use of the classic means of bribes, blackmail, honey traps and threats to their Children who go to Wahhabi Schools.

9. By the same means they have infiltrated covert elements within the Pakistani Police, Political parties, Judiciary, civil service and Army, the same people who control the nukes.

The Madrasahs and how the strings are pulled

The Madrasahs now free of their Afghan Refugees were thus opened up to teaching Pakistani children. With vast areas of Pakistan without any education free schooling seemed like a wonderful gift. The Wahhabi funded schools soon became entrenched and expanded their influence; many of its more academic student/recruiters were established in most of Pakistan's schools with Wahhabi sponsorship and grants to encourage this; including those schools that taught the children of its elites, often looking for a conservative approved Muslim cleric. This then gave it a route into the core of Pakistani society. Its religious power gave it sway over religious members of Pakistan's elites. Much of what they have achieved was through the infiltration the education system of the Pakistan elites, for the decades Wahhabi texts have filled the schools of the Children of Pakistan's leaders, even using the Kitab at-tawhid to replace the Koran. Using their tried and tested Wahhabi Madrasahs they have begun to take control of Pakistani youth giving them a ready made army of the naive to manipulate and control.

How Modern Wahhabi Madrasahs work, around the world

The Wahhabi Madrasahs; schools, colleges and orphanages are used to choose and stream the different classes of Student/Taliban (Taliban, in Pashto, means Student remember) The vast majority of Wahhabi Madrasahs' students, between 75% and 90%, are just unconscious financial supporters, via school fees and chariatable donations to their Alma Mater.

The Wahhabi Madrasahs are based on concepts taught to them by their Western seccurity agencies, the Pakistani ISI and Saudi Secret Service trainers; in how to recruit and groom the various asset types they needed. The Tactics, Techniques and Procedures that formed there SOP were reverse engineered from Russian communists, Chinese Maoists, Koreans, Cuban and NVA revolutionary manuals and practice sources some of this stuff goes all the way back to the SOE and French Resistance and indeed back to the America Revolutionary war and all the way back to Machioveli and Sun Tzu.

It has also been further refined by modern psychology and the fruits of America's own MK Ultra project.

It is all about classifying and streaming the different asset types:

A selected few are active support (all these are then leverage-able via blackmail)

a) Direct financial supporters, people who give money for acts of jihad.

b) Recruiters, people who work in and run the Wahhabi Madrasahs; schools and orphanages usually Arabs at the higher levels, people like Anwar al-Aulaqi.

c) Trainers and technical support, the Taliban has bomb makers, computer and encryption experts etc. the more socialy inept of the nerds at a school, the ones who want to look cool, these are the covert core assets who remain hidden and prime targets of the CIA.

d) Administrative control and asset handling, the people who control the suicide bombers.

e) Suicide bombers, in every school there are people who have mental issues these are the people who Al Qaeda choose as Suicide Bombers, people with a similar psychological make up to say to Jared Lee Loughner, the Tucson killer.

f) Soldiers; those who are are not stupid enough to be suicide bombers but who like guns, every school has them.

The Destablization Phase

Al Qaeda are now in the destabilising Pakistan phase of their plan with a simmering civil war which they use to recruit and radicalise others, once again through those Wahhabi schools and orphanages. Al Qaeda's vast Saudi oil finance gave it power over those in the ISI that could be corrupted. Its terrorist training in kidnap, extortion and assassination gave it power over any who argued against it. They started to apply the model they had learned in Afghanistan across the board in Pakistan, seeking the fractures in the political system praying on the corruption and feeding the discontent.

In July of 2010 a Passenger Plane, after loosing all contact with the ground, flew low over Islahmahbad into the Air Exclusion Zone surrounding the Pakistan Parliment and the Pakistan Presidents House and later crashed into Moutains above the Presidential Palace 152 plus passengers and crew killed.

Al Qaeda has a history of flying passenger jets into targets; such a decapitation raid only has to get through once.

Since the majority of Afghan Refugees left for Afghanistan; the Wahhabi Madrasahs; schools and orphanages in Pakistan have been filled with Pakistani Children. Often as they are strict religious schools and their fees have been paid by rich Wahhabi Arabs they have targeted the children of Pakistani ISI, Police, Political parties, Judiciary, civil service and Army.

This is how Pakistan is slowly being infiltrated and controlled by the Arab Wahhabis.

The Pakistanis are just pawns for the Arab Wahhabis of Al Qaeda just like the Afghan Taliban and the Wahhabis are laughing into the Pakistanis beards too.

Educate your self as to who America's true enemy is:

http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/interrogatory111802.asp

By the way all this stuff Al Qaeda are doing now was what was taught to them in Operation Cyclone.

Charlie Wilson and the CIA agent in Quetta pointed out the possibility of the blowback at the end of the Afghan war.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 4, 2011 by walker
additions to Maktab al-Khadamat for clarrity and Wahhabism's anti Islamic nature

[Perforator 10]

The overwhelming majority of Afghans fighting in the Sangin district are not Taliban insurgents, they are local natives involved in opium production. They are drug traffikers, not hardline Taliban. Fact.

[walker 0]

The overwhelming majority of Afghans fighting in the Sangin district are not Taliban insurgents, they are local natives involved in opium production. They are drug traffikers, not hardline Taliban. Fact.

Hi Perforator

I think you are correct, but I think the controlling group are Wahhabi Arab Al Qaeda, same as it has been since the Wahhabis realised what they had been given.

The locals involved are just the Wahhabi equivalent of PMCs; in it for the money. As I pointed out the primary method of control for the Wahhabis, in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, is money; they do have access to a lot of it, possibly even more than America, oil is not cheap, they have been able to pay the Afghan and Pakistan poppy producers so much that they are no longer producing enough Opium to satisfy world demand production has reduced to about 20% of normal output.

Wahhabi Al Qaeda has since shifted its focus to the primary goal of destabilizing and taking over Pakistan, they are after the nukes. Afghanistan is, IMHO, being used as a holding action to keep the US and allies focus away from Pakistan and as a constant source of affronted individuals to do core Wahhabi Al Qaeda tasks.

Kind Regards Walker

Edited February 1, 2011 by walker

[Tonci87 163]

Thank you Walker, I now have a much better insight on these things

[Perforator 10]

For those that missed it -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A6AJteEwdg&feature=player_embedded

[Baff1 0]

people dont realize what this conflict is about. First off and i mean no disrespect but were not fighting against a country, were fighting a religion. One that openly teaches hate against catholics and jews.

It's good to see that religious extremism is not just confined to the ranks of Islam or the Taliban.

I watched this show last night by the way. I enjoyed it. Watching those guys demolish home after home, some of them still with people in.

And the Afghan locals just begging to be left alone. Also the one who came out to show them where the IED's were. Only to have his home demolished by them anyway.

I hope to god war never comes to my country.

It's the powerlessness of it all that gets me. A fucking great army destroys your entire way of life and the nearest thing you can do to being able to prevent it is stand up to them and be killed by them.

It's soul destroying. Your whole lifes work, maybe some of your loved ones too. All destroyed in a minute. It's no wonder so many of them fight. No wonder at all.

And that it took them 3 days to travel 900 yards. 3 days.

I was reassured to hear the confidence in the voices of the marines. The feeling of superiority they had over their enemy both as a combat soldier and as an IED bomber.

I was also pleased to see how willingly they had stepped into the fighting. Not every country is willing to deploy it's troops into the hottest part of war. Not every nation has the balls to fight and considers the hardest battles, fights that they should volunteer for.

For all their faults, Americans make for great allies in a war. We are lucky to have them.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Baff1

[MrBump 10]

Wahhabi is NOT a even a religion

Wahhabi is NOT a even a valid religion, and is so anti Islamic that they want to, and have actually made attempts to blow up the Muslim Prophet Mohamed's grave.

Out of interest walker, what makes a religion valid or not?

[walker 0]

Out of interest walker, what makes a religion valid or not?

Hi MrBump

A very complex question as you are aware MrBump, otherwise you would not have asked it.

And I guess we could say anything that wants to say it is a religion is a religion by say just using a religious motif such as a cross so the Ku Klux Klan could claim to be a religion too. Or by the sheer fact of saying they are a religion; so those who put on their UK Census as their Religion Jedi, would be able to claim Religious rights.

Or it could say that it is based in a singular usually textually defined philosophy, based on a or many deit(y)(ies), so say the Christians and their bible, the Jews and the Torah, the Muslims and the Koran, The Vedas of the Hindus, Jains and Sikhs etc.

If this is the case then MrBump Kitaab At-Tawheed would be that singular textually defined philosophy. An examination of which finds it to be a essentially a legal opinion written by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab a lawyer, on matters of how to classify things as sorcery and other activities as the none Islamic concept of [ Insert person Wahhabi's want to kill here ] Takfir; a concept that has nothing to do with the Muslim's Koran and is mentioned in the Koran on not a single line of a single page.

Here have a read if you don't believe me:

http://abdurrahman.org/tawheed/KTwahab/beliefs/creed/abdulwahab/frame.html

Basing a religion on a legal opinion about fairies and sorcerer's seems unusual, but I must admit not impossible I dare say the Lord of the Rings fans would argue it too and of course the Cargo cult based their religion on military logistics, so it is not totaly weired.

The text was then used by the Saudi family as a method of pursuing a land grab against other Muslims and none Muslims essentially using an interpretation of Islamic Law based on the Takfir fallacy and creating a Saudi State out of thin air.

If the Wahhabis want to say it is a religion, then they had better be aware that in doing so they open themselves up to accusation in Islam of them being kufr (Kafir) a concept that does exist in the Koran.

So if Wahhabism is a religion then it is inherently in competition with Islam.

Personaly I find the whole concept of imaginary friends for those beyond the age of two years of age, a very odd thing anyway.

So what do you think MrBump, is Wahhabism a religion?

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 9, 2011 by walker

[jeza 5416]

Nice find walker watched it last night, it once again shows just how hard it can be to win hearts and minds over there while your trying to stay safe as well, hope those guys keep safe.

[oxmox 73]

Its interesting that 911 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia but Afghans had nothing with the international Terrorism in common. Its also interesting, that "allied" countries like Pakistan did support state terrorism, Saudi Arabias Zakat funds terror and is the origin of the most brutal form of Islam - Wahabism. Terror cant be a target, its a type of warfare, an asymetric war. The slogan alone, War on Terror stinks...something is wrong. At the end its again for geopolitical interests and safeguarding of SA.

Anyway, guys down their should trying to stay safe.

Edited February 6, 2011 by oxmox

[walker 0]

Hi all

I thought the documentary very enlightening and well reasoned; and thus worth the consideration of the forums members. It shows much of the frustration and pain of war felt by both soldiers and the civilians caught in the middle.

I have been clear in many of my posts that; IMHO Bush and in particular Rumsfeld fumbled and dropped the ball on this Afghan war. It saddens me greatly that others continue to pay the burden for that gross stupidity. This war would have been over nearly a decade ago if we had not been off chasing fairy tales in Iraq.

The reason I wrote the second post and indeed the reply to MrBump was to ensure that people do not at least in this forum ever get fooled again by that lack of nuance that characterised the Bush era.

If you are going to war, find out the facts!

War and its deaths and maiming are far too serious to be lackadaisical with.

Kind Regards walker

[MrBump 10]

Hi walker sorry, been on holiday with my family and I missed your reply.

I guess my question came from when you said that it was a "Political group masquerading as a Religion", of this my question would be, how do you distinguish between the two in a theocracy, when unlike in our Western Christian based society, there is no real doctrine of separation of church and state? This is one of the key points Westerners like ourselves have a hard time understanding, in these societies the two areas are intertwined.

As for the Wahhabi, I don't know too much about them so I'll leave it to you to inform me, my understanding is based more on Ancient Rome and Medieval Europe so I'll use this as my base here...

So if Wahhabism is a religion then it is inherently in competition with Islam.

Well the history of the Catholic church is one of suppression of competing belief, sometimes the suppression works like with the Unitarians or Gnostics , sometimes it doesn't like the Protestants, however they're still all considered religions despite what is considered as heresy by the domininant church authority. Really such competing schisms are common in large religions.

If this is the case then MrBump Kitaab At-Tawheed would be that singular textually defined philosophy. An examination of which finds it to be a essentially a legal opinion written by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab a lawyer, on matters of how to classify things as sorcery and other activities as the none Islamic concept of [ Insert person Wahhabi's want to kill here ] Takfir; a concept that has nothing to do with the Muslim's Koran and is mentioned in the Koran on not a single line of a single page.

The Catholic religion it's self is based on ideas that don't appear in the bible, for instance the concept of the Trinity is not biblical... The Shiites and Sunnis also disagree wildly on scriptural interpretations and many Islamic societies have cultural traditions that aren't based on the Koran but are a part of their religious practices...

Personaly I find the whole concept of imaginary friends for those beyond the age of two years of age, a very odd thing anyway.

You and me both. :)

[Perforator 10]

This war would have been over nearly a decade ago if we had not been off chasing fairy tales in Iraq.

A full-blown massive scale ground offensive against the Pakistani Taliban in Waziristan could end the war right now. Waziristan is Al-Qaeda's Ho Chi Minh trail. Unless the epicentre of terrorism is destroyed the war will forever remain unwinnable.

[Tonci87 163]

A full-blown massive scale ground offensive against the Pakistani Taliban in Waziristan could end the war right now. Waziristan is Al-Qaeda's Ho Chi Minh trail. Unless the epicentre of terrorism is destroyed the war will forever remain unwinnable.

Better than continuing what they do now....

[walker 0]

A full-blown massive scale ground offensive against the Pakistani Taliban in Waziristan could end the war right now. Waziristan is Al-Qaeda's Ho Chi Minh trail. Unless the epicentre of terrorism is destroyed the war will forever remain unwinnable.

Hi Perforator

Do you read any of the posts others make in a thread? That would quite possibly be the worst suggestion any one could make. Unless... Are you a member of Al Qaeda?

The reason I ask is, that what you just described is Al Qaeda's plan. Draw America in to a third front, attacking nuclear armed Pakistan, destabilizing the country and the whole middle east; and either take over the country in an anti American popular uprising or steal the nukes in the confusion.

Game over Wahhabi Al Qaeda wins.

Also since you have never been to the area you do not understand how complex that terrain is, I spent months there back in the early 90s, it makes Afghanistan look like a billiard table. It is also surprisingly highly populated. Not ever the kind of place to be hunting an insurgent/guerrilla army. And it is so vast, you could loose whole US divisions in it and never find them.

The way to beat Al Qaeda is to cut off its funding. You do that by increasingly criminalising it and going after its fund raisers and logistics thus starving it out.

I personally think Petraeus has the right strategy. Hold the the ground, concentrate your forces, do not allow yourself to be distracted into starting a new front. Divide the ground into sectors and hold, secure then then control each. Limit Al Qaeda's area of operations. Change the political structure and remove Al Qaeda's breading ground. It is a slow steady process and the only one that has ever beaten insurgent/guerrilla army.

Without doubt Wahhabi Al Qaeda's long term plan has always been taking over Nuclear Armed Pakistan.

Kind Regards but with serious reservations Walker

Edited February 12, 2011 by walker

[Tonci87 163]

I know it would be a extremely difficult thing, but maybe they should guard the Afghan-pakistani border more.

[walker 0]

Hi Tonci87

I trust Petraeus he is a good strategic general. He is dividing up the target area and slowly but certainly turning every square his colour. That is the way the Romans did it and the way the Brits did it in Malaysia, it is the only known way to beat an insurgent/guerrilla army; the slow but steady way. Overwhelm the enemy at each location. Secure it and hold it. Change the politics of the areas you hold. Once it is secure move to the next location.

The method is like squeezing tooth paste from a tube, if you squeeze near the top you get a big result to begin with but you will end up with lumps of Al Qaeda left in the tube, so you roll the tube up from the bottom. And like any true method, it is what it says on the tube; methodical. Slow but sure wins this race.

Jumping around from one enemy designated battle ground to the next is foolish. That is you letting Al Qaeda decide where to fight.

I know plodding slow wars are not pretty and Hollywood but the chances of doing it that way were ruined by Ronald Dumsfeld and the Bush administration's chasing after fairy tales in Iraq. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda would have been dead a decade ago if every single plan of the US and UK special forces, at the Battle of Tora Bora, had not been nixed by some one at the top of the US chain of command.

Delta force were less than 2000m from the cave, that Bin Laden was sending out his goodbye cruel world message from, with their laser designators on the target and with FAB and bunker busting smart bomb equipped B52s and Stealth bombers stacked up overhead:

1. They asked for permission to guide in the attack? Reply from the top of the chain of command: No.
   
2. They asked if they could lead the Afghan Mujahideen in an assault? Reply from the top of the chain of command: No.
   
3. They asked if they and the other nation special forces could assault? Reply from the top of the chain of command: No.
   
4. They asked if they could HALO in a mountain trained special forces group to cut them off from the rear? Reply from the top of the chain of command: No.
   
5. They asked if they could air drop a minefield to cut off escape? Reply from the top of the chain of command: No.
   

Then Ronald Dumsfeld pulled out all the troops and support, and went chasing after fairy tales in Iraq.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 12, 2011 by walker

[Perforator 10]

The way to beat Al Qaeda is to cut off its funding..

Opium funds Al-Qaeda's war chest. Hundreds of tons of opium generate hundreds of millions of dollars.

going after its fund raisers and logistics thus starving it out.

Al-Qaeda's leaders are based in Waziristan, they must be eliminated, plain and simple.

I personally think Petraeus has the right strategy.

Your joking right? Nato leaders are currently mapping out an exit deadline for 2014.

Limit Al Qaeda's area of operations.

Get a grip, we can't even secure the Korengal valley. Remember what happened at COP Keating...

Without doubt Wahhabi Al Qaeda's long term plan has always been taking over Nuclear Armed Pakistan...

And this is precisely why their leaders must be immediately driven out of their safe haven, it is a well known fact that Waziristan is a staging area for Al Qaeda attacks.

[walker 0]

Hi Perforator

Opium funds Al-Qaeda's war chest. Hundreds of tons of opium generate hundreds of millions of dollars.

General Petraeus was fully aware that part of Al Qaeda's funding is opium, though he is also fully aware it is only a small percentage of Wahhabi Al Qaeda's funding, unlike you.

Opium production in Afghanistan was down by over a fifth 2007.

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/opium-cultivation-in-afghanistan-down-by-a-fifth.html

It continues to decline:

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2009/September/afghan-opium-production-in-significant--decline.html

And decline:

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-30/world/afghanistan.opium.production_1_opium-production-opium-cultivation-poppy-crop?_s=PM:WORLD

This has resulted in a massive increase in the price and decrease in the quality and supply of heroin on the street.

31 January 2011 Last updated at 05:13

Dramatic drop in amount of heroin in UK

There has been a dramatic decrease in the amount of heroin in the UK, BBC News has learned...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12319698

As always follow the link to the original story in full

But as I said already Wahhabi Al Qaeda has much vaster resources than a tax on opium traffic. Wahhbi funding by Saudi Arabia's Oil money makes the Al Qaeda's Opium tax look like a penny in a gold mine.

Al-Qaeda's leaders are based in Waziristan, they must be eliminated, plain and simple.

Hmm have you got their adresses?

Are you sure it is Waziristan? Perhaps some where else in Balouchistan. Could they be say in say NW Frontier Province? What about the other tribal areas? Or how about Islamabad or Lahore or Karachi?

And just supposing we new the Pakistani province they were in and that, they were stupid enough, to all be in the same place, how long after we new they there, would they stay there? Assuming they are all in Pakistan is a big ask.

As to plain and simple. Saying they are in Waziristan is like saying they are in America. Waziristan is a big big place with some serious geography.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Waziristan&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.188298,62.929687&ie=UTF8&geocode=Fe0q7QEdnfkpBA&split=0&hq=&hnear=Waziristan&ll=32.319634,69.543457&spn=2.687592,3.290405&t=h&z=8

You throw dictats out like you expect them to be easily done, so explain to me what you think is needed?

Your joking right? Nato leaders are currently mapping out an exit deadline for 2014.

This sounds like a good goal to aim for. Goals are good because they give you something to aim for. Not having goals, deadlines and milestones makes it harder to judge a strategy. And you should always choose goals that are hard or even unobtainable as it encourages you to work hard. Set your sights high, in trying to achieve them you will do well.

Get a grip, we can't even secure the Korengal valley. Remember what happened at COP Keating...

Korengal is going to take at least a year to capture then another two to stabilize. The road of the valley you are talking about of course leads to Zahedan in Iran, I spent a little time there a while back before crossing into Balouchistan.

And this is precisely why their leaders must be immediately driven out of their safe haven, it is a well known fact that Waziristan is a staging area for Al Qaeda attacks.

As I keep saying I have been there. Assuming you are correct it is a vast place. My personal thoughts are that they are moving around a fair bit. And looking at the map Balouchistan seems to be a likely staging post as it is nearer to Kandahar and Quetta has ancient ties with AL Qaeda going right back to the days of MAK.

How exactly do you propose to drive them out?

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 12, 2011 by walker

[Perforator 10]

Opium production in Afghanistan was down by over a fifth 2007.

"In the short run, the decline in opium production has pushed prices up. Despite the drop in overall production, the farm-gate income of opium farmers rose markedly. Now that opium is commanding high prices again, the gross income for farmers per hectare has increased by 36 per cent to $4,900.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-30/world/afghanistan.opium.production_1_opium-production-opium-cultivation-poppy-crop?_s=PM:WORLD

You should read your links properly before you post them.

It is pointless fighting an endless battle against poor afghan opium farmers in Helmand, the focus of combat operations should be on Al-Qaeda's top commanders in Waziristan.

Al-Qaeda is not an enemy that will one day shake our hands in reconciliation.

The sooner they are destroyed the sooner this will end -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AtNz56-43g

[walker 0]

Hi Perforator

This point first:

...You should read your links properly before you post them.

It is pointless fighting an endless battle against poor afghan opium farmers in Helmand, the focus of combat operations should be on Al-Qaeda's top commanders in Waziristan...

I was of course replying to your post:

Opium funds Al-Qaeda's war chest. Hundreds of tons of opium generate hundreds of millions of dollars.

and pointing out your suggestion was about 3 to 4 years late and either way only part of Wahhabi Al Qaeda's funding.

Odd how you volte-faced on that one though.

Even if I had not read each of those links; which of course I had in point of fact, some weeks ago in the case of the BBC article and subsequent to that in the case of the UN and CNN articles; my own knowledge of mundane economics tells me that the supply and demand curves mean that when supply is short demand pressures increase price.

As to this:

...Al-Qaeda is not an enemy that will one day shake our hands in reconciliation.

Probably not but you seem to be one who is some what vague about the concept of nuance. Not all the people fighting are Wahhabi, Wahhabism is about getting others to fight for you by flimflamming them into believing the Wahhabis are Islamic. In fact if they understood that Wahhabism is anti Islamic they might well switch sides.

...The sooner they are destroyed the sooner this will end -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AtNz56-43g

As to the second part you seem great at dicta-ts and pronouncements but some what vague on method.

You seem to be one who is some what vague on the concept of practicality too.

I hope this will help you; please fill in your answer to your very own question.

Question

By what method do we ensure the sooner Al Qaeda are destroyed the sooner this will end.

I look forward to your answer.

Kind Regards but remaining skeptical of your motives walker

Edited February 12, 2011 by walker