Simple DLC suggestion to make everybody a bit happier.

[vilas 477]

But you also have a biased view on this since you are making addons and it comes to you second nature how to set them up, install them and maintain them.

tell me how putting addons in for example "community addons" folder and adding line in shortcut or extracting archive into addons folder can be problem for person who is able to install game and use Arma2 menu (not arcade PSP joistic menu)

how it can be hard ? is it too hard for people to unpack file into folder ?

using windows explorer is too hard ? than how they put MP3 to playlist in player ??? how they record and watch movie if extracting files is over their skills ???

just unpacking files from archive to Addons folder or specified folder (no need to create many folders, all files can go to one folder, i have for example shortcuts for historic stuff (I44, Unsung), modern stuff , sci-fi stuff, my own stuff for testing it and i push all islands, cars, tanks, soldiers into modern stuff and i see no problems (unless something not require 3-rd party like CBA , ACE etc)

but for example all my addons require only vanila Arma2 (not OA yet) so, all works just thrown into dust called Addons

i know there are addons using CBA, ACE, other files with eventhandlers (using them require other things like weaponry etc)

don't say that people are such stupid that extracting file from archive make problem

than how they use digital camera ? how they use pendrive, how they work in office job, how they tie shoes and put on clothes if it is too hard to unpack file to folder in computer ??

i use digital camera, it download RAW files which i have to rework in DPP , don't tell me i am only one ;)

i have MP3 and folder for music, i change music on my MP3 from time to time, don't tell me it is magic skill

don't tell me that only self-extracting exe creating shortcut is for people :) i believe for 7 yo kid, but Arma2 is rated 16+ 18+ in countries

and gamers are often computer-freaks who are very skilled when it comes to computer, they are not computer noobs

my grandmother would have problem using addons, but someone who plays computer games and is at least 17 years old

when addon is in folder, simply open editor and create mission and let people play (missionmakers is what addonmakers need)

most of community use PC for years and even know coding and hardware and software issues better than me, who only knows some graphic and photo and internet and office

how can they have problems any other than laziness or maybe they are not at age specified on box ???

in Polish community long time ago we had some problems with people flamming addons, making problems to other people, trying to cheat, trying to rework addons , moaning about problems

those were 12-13 y.o. kids who moved to another game after month , 4-6 years to small to play this game (rated 16 or 18 was OFP), but for older PC user , unpacking file to folder X:/Arma2/Addons or X:/Arma2/custom/addons and than -mod@custom is not problem :]

Edited December 6, 2010 by vilas

[nyles 11]

The only thing I can say to that is that apparently it IS too difficulty or too annoying, otherwise more people would surely do it right now already.

I don't think it's about stupidity. It's more about convenience. I just don't think you can survive as a company over the long term, if you just hope to sell to a mature audience. BIS opting for a DLC strategy is suggesting that they are seeing this to and are trying to find new ways of making the game more accessible and also to get additional income. I have no idea about the Arrowhead sales figures or the money BIS gets from military contracts still, but I would not be surprised if those from their gaming division are declining. This has not necessarily to do with the quality of the product, but with the decline of the PC as platform in general and the inability of developers to find new methods to reach their audience.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Nyles

[gossamersolid 155]

Vilas, we've attempted to run mods on our server and the only addon that actually worked out so is running Lingor (because it's so popular and awesome). There are still about 30 people that connect a match without it... I just do not understand this.

It says MissionName @LINGOR, but derpers still attempt to connect.

Another fine example is that my server is named [TGW] Public Server | A2 + OA | TheGameWardens.net. Anybody with half a brain could read that they need ArmA 2 + OA (Combined Operations)... now the amount of people connecting with OA only is just magical. Either we have a bunch of steam coppies failing to merge the two games or most of the players in this game are now filled with morrons. We'll be flat out playing on Chernarus and people with OA will connect... Do you remember seeing Chernarus anywhere in your island list? No...

/rant

)rStrangelove;1806419']So getting something for free is 'a simple DLC solution to make everybody a bit happier' ?

Sounds great for the community. Sounds bad for BIS. And guess what? Sounds bad for the release of ArmA3. Which is bad for the community again.

Get it?

I believe BIS said in the pre-OA questing thing on their wiki that they weren't making another milsim for a while.

[vilas 477]

server is named [TGW] Public Server | A2 + OA | TheGameWardens.net. Anybody with half a brain could read that they need ArmA 2 + OA (Combined Operations)... now the amount of people connecting with OA only is just magical. Either we have a bunch of steam

oooh god, almost impossible to believe

i believe to You, but it sounds like UFO landed in your garden :O

i never thought that if i don't have BAF or OA - i would connect to desert mission on Shakipur having only Arma2 vanila :(

people without Lingor that want join mission on it ... gosh... really...

and when put and mix with what Nyles say - it sounds like "OFP r.i.p. and gone" if people "mature customers" are not enough and half-brains are main target of Arma marketing (what you say about problems with using folder unpacking , connecting to server without Arma

i simply cannot imagine this, cause for me using every day PC (job in office (Open office or Ms Office, AutoCad, using MP3, using pendrive, using digital camera... god , how can unpacking archive and putting file to folder can be hard

how they tie shoes ? do they put on clothes themselves if unpacking archive is too hard ?

how than people use torrents and download movies or use Armaholic to download BIS patch (if have no brandwidth to download free and legal freeware addon) ?

i cannot imagine that using addon (download file, open archive, unpack to folder with addons, delete archive, open editor and look at units) can be too hard

i imagine that complicated and scripted mission is hard, but even easy mission like "i put 2 squads and get some firefight" is easy , i just cannot imagine that using 7Zip or Rar became something hard

or maybe Arma get to hands of 10 years old ? cause on box there is 16+ , 18+, for 18 y.o. user of PC unpacking archive is not a problem if he is not mentally ill person

i understand that finishing enginner or technician thesis is hard, but i cannot imagine that using archive and windows explorer can be hard (unless Windows Vista do not do "hidden silent backup" that make people problems with update file, i am still XP user)

i just cannot imagine person who is able to use Arma (complicated more than other games) and cannot use archiver (if using addon is complicated process)

Edited December 6, 2010 by vilas

[Przemek_kondor 14]

Most of the addonmakers dont understand customer needs. And when I say "customer" I don't mean 14-year boy, but I mean someone like me - almost 30 years man, who knows arma topic more than some of you, who has family, other hobbies and when he's tired he wants to enjoy playing arma2 - click button and play. But you call him "brainless" man who can't extract zip.

C'mon - it's not only extracting - because he has to know what addons are missing (is not so abvious), download them (in most cases - thanks to defragmentation - probably several addons), extract, create pizdylionth shortcut on desktop, modify path and then realize than version on server is different than yours...

That is why DLC is fine for consumers, because it's common (1 version) and popular shipped as a consistent pack with missions. And the new version/fixes you will get with new game patch. And as a missionmaker I would be sure that there would be many of players who would (are able to) play my mission.

Community addons is really great idea, but it has some disadvantages:

-MP - if you don't see the issue, then I doubt you play MP. Signatures? There is no server which has them all. It means you need to have 1 link for every server. And you can't have order in you arma addons, because you can't f.e. put islands in one dir, because certain server has public key only for some of the island.

It's totally mess to use many community addons.

-I would say many of addonmakers are killing addonmaking. Low quality, duplications, fragmentation, too many versions (0.9a, 1.0i etc), not using convenient tools for admins and players (addon sync etc), not using installers which could make the magic for you (how many applications you have installed on your windows that you need to modify executable path? -why people should care about some copying addons to some specific dir and then write some -mod stuff - this is a game - it should work out of the box)

[[frl]myke 14]

Ok, right now i need someone who can explain why i'm still making addons. Honestly.

[woore 10]

reskin with desert/woodland camo would be good idea,in any DLC or smt else.

[vasmkd 12]

Forgot to put AN-2 (russians) and ka-137 (russians)

Other factions will have light transport and Russia to have none without An-2

[nyles 11]

Wasn't sure about the AN-2 still being in use with the Russian Federation Air Force, but good point.

[Mr. Charles 22]

Head → Wall

Jesus, use AddonSync if it is so hard to manage mods. Srsly, ArmA is not a game to jump in, have some fun and then disconnect 30 minutes later. You have to put some work into it to actually make it work the way you like. People demand and demand and demand, but they're actually too lazy/stupid for ArmA.

[vasmkd 12]

They have them in reserve really but since there is no other russian transport plane in ARMA2 it would help to be called up to service again as i'm sure they would in serious wartime

Wasn't sure about the AN-2 still being in use with the Russian Federation Air Force, but good point.

[nyles 11]

Added Woodland M113 for US Army and camo KA-60 for Russians as discovered already being hidden in the game here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=111330

We just need those to be set up properly now (Kamov for EAST and M113 for WEST).

[mrcash2009 0]

Its all down the the psychology.

When your presented with a "game" its all in one package, and the notion of having to venture into "DIY" land to make it work better or open it up doesn't seem to fit right.

Mainly becuase most games try to steer away from that.

But your right you have to go DIY in order to use the PC its actually going to be played on, but once your focusing on the "game" the idea of tinkering with that becomes something new and strange and hassle.

Its very hard to get across the logic of what arma is, and that its actually the main reason it lasts so long IS becuase you can fiddle, tinker, update, change, mess, test on top of the "playing the game aspect".

The request here aren't what I would class as DLC valid IMHO.

You just have to have 2 camps, some with stick with stock, some will mod it do death :)

Edited December 8, 2010 by mrcash2009

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

Most of the addonmakers dont understand customer needs.

Some addon makers don't care about people who demanding things in a bitchy way. Ever considered there are modders that work for themselves or a small community and are only releasing things as a matter of good will? Not because they have to or because a "customer" had asked for something.

By the way .. what's you definition of "low quality" addons?

And the most important question .. what are you doing to improve/extend ArmA II?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Most of the addonmakers dont understand customer needs.

Arrgllll....:mad: Maybe it's because addonmakers DON'T HAVE ANY CUSTOMERS !!

[mr burns 132]

Myke;1806828']Ok' date=' right now i need someone who can explain why i'm still making addons. Honestly.[/quote']

I thought addonmaking was solely for our own enjoyment :)

If you share the fruits of your work (that you love doing) and others are having a fun time with it that´s great! And if some don´t like your work, fuck that, your doing it for yourself, not them.

edit: Gotta admit that i find most of the DLC suggestions being made during the last few weeks rather ridiculous.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Mr Burns

[vilas 477]

By the way .. what's you definition of "low quality" addons?

And the most important question .. what are you doing to improve/extend ArmA II?

i know what are such low addons - those "with not my tag" (well known issue - you refuse, next day flaming, calling bugs and rating of addon by 0 points

some of "i wanna your models, give it to me, i will be your boss" groups are even here in this topic (at least cooperating with such people)

issue with quality can be very strange , i heard that twice better in polygons than XYZ model "is cubic compared to XYZ" , when you prove by few screens that your model is not worse, but better "not important minor tiny details, who care"

or "model has poor texture, BIS texture is much better" - even if model USE BIS texture or ... the same with sound

BIS sounds used "you should use BIS sounds, cause these are horrible poor"

for some people it is only issue of tag before file ABC - good, XYZ - buggy, laggy, poor quality, mistakes (even not downloaded this shit)

for wise man - than how you know it is shit full of bugs if not downloaded ? ;)

etc.

i think that except some really minority examples (people who release not textured cubic model or with total mistakes) , for some shouting loud people "low quality" are those, that they would like to sign tag ;]

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------

I thought addonmaking was solely for our own enjoyment :)

If you share the fruits of your work (that you love doing) and others are having a fun time with it that´s great! And if some don´t like your work, fuck that, your doing it for yourself, not them.

i observed that many times it causes more nerve and stress than fun, cause "someone want to be your boss and in his generously can eventually put you in readme in credits"

and you become hate aim when you do not do as they want instead of be thankfull that new toys for joy are for free

Edited December 8, 2010 by vilas

[Przemek_kondor 14]

Some addon makers don't care about people who demanding things in a bitchy way.

I did not demand anything from community addonmakers. I described situation from my (missionmaker, PvP player, guy who has 4 per week for playing) perspective.

I'm sory if my tone was / is too moan, but it's not above Vilas' level

By the way .. what's you definition of "low quality" addons?

-blury textures,

-rpt errors

-mess in editor

-adding new stuff to pack while some older units aren't fixed

-lack of consistency

-unnatural looking areas (islands), weak sat-tex, obvious copy-paste of bushes

-I can list more if you want. And if you want I can spend some time to take some screens

And the most important question .. what are you doing to improve/extend ArmA II?

- missions- and tools-making (see my signature for some of my releases)

- A2 CIT tester (40 created tickets) + registered on other arma2 bug trackers for supporting creators

- armagame.pl forum moderator (with the highest number of reputation points - mostly for helping in missionmaking)

- giving advices to addonmakers f.e. in this thread

- I could list more but for the past (arma1 and ofp)

If somebody wants to continue this OT then lets create new topic or just PM me,

Regards,

[PR]zemek_kondor

[vilas 477]

and also "not giving to our mod" addons are bad + promisses to destroy someone and etc. happens too

addonmaking is not bed of roses, but needles when some people want "cooperate"

Edited December 8, 2010 by vilas

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

@Przemek_kondor:

Ok, you've posted valid points. Now I only hope that those points are being observed from an objective point of view, not subjective.

As for me, I've got several DLC suggestions as well, but I wouldn't exaggerage any wish. I know a lot of things can't be done due the lack of money/time/manpower/insert anything you want so I wish quietly. On the other side ... do we really need yet another reskin of a unit that has been ingame for years? Don't get me wrong ... if the content is delivered in a fascinating way I'm going to get it. As an example I would name a possible National Takistani Army DLC that will most likely consist of existing units which are already avaiable in Operation Arrowhead.

When I read your post I got the idea that the majority of addons is broken bullshit which I know isn't. Sure, not every addon out there is flawless, but not everyone has super skills or the time to develope super skills.

Maybe the greatest problem is that some modders don't work together although they could work together, directly or indirectly. When I take a look at my A2/AO I got at least 4 US Army factions due to different addons which don't share the same faction class. Such things are easily avoidable just by talking to each other. Now in order to use the mods together I had to start modding and find a way to fix it without breaking the mods or screwing with 3rd party work.

I always thought that this game-series is huge enough so everyone can find something that he likes. Regarding mods, it's really up to the administrators to allow certain mods. Which ones, that's depending on missions. I'm really glad that BIS found a good solution for the mp compatibility of the DLC.

This thread has a strong conflict potential starting with people who don't like DLC at all. At the end of the day you can't satisfy everyone, no matter what you do.

[vilas 477]

cooperation is good, but sometimes it is too hard when people have different view what is good (for one person it is for example special unit, for other person usual soldier infantry, for third man it should be playable good in SP for other man long fire range to distance firefight (which forces having 24 LCD with good graphics, not 17 LCD) etc. etc. ) and there are people who only want to have their tag before made by you content and see cooperation hard (or even take much more actions against you) when you not agree to changing your tag of your file

so cooperation would be good and ideal (and we would have much more good addons in term of all like config, sounds animations missions), if some people would not force "replace your tag or you will be vanished and destroyed" (cause they feel to be your boss)

of course it would be good if ambitions of some "i will be your manager" would be lower, than all would look nice and good (specially when you be nice, give finger, than someone not only want arm, but demands both arms and head and say that you'll be vanished if not give permission nicely)

player not see backstage of addonmaking (so when say about DLC quality and addons not quality, than not knows all issues of something which look like "this man has some fun with 3d software" , sometimes "this man had a lot of bitching and calling names for not giving" )

but it is offtop to DLCs

Edited December 8, 2010 by vilas

[nyles 11]

Mhh, on one hand the argument comes up that we do not need any addons from BIS, since the community did or could do them. On the other hand it is said, addon makers are doing the stuff for themselves primarily and that no-one is in the position to "demand" anything from them. This is of course absolutely right, but doesn't this also somehow make it even more important for certain gaps to be filled by BIS through official channels?

Btw guys, I really like that even with such a controversial and heated topic, most of the replies to this thread have been presented in a very mature way and without much flaming. That's really great! Keep it like that. :)

[vilas 477]

Mhh, on one hand the argument comes up that we do not need any addons from BIS, since the community did or could do them. On the other hand it is said, addon makers are doing the stuff for themselves primarily and that no-one is in the position to "demand" anything from them. This is of course absolutely right, but doesn't this also somehow make it even more important for certain gaps to be filled by BIS through official channels?

with player requests it is hard

most newcomers want "black vest , digital desert camo specops with modern HK SCAR 416 Pulmag Masada M4"

while old scene wants "usual infantry"

many people want "US army, US rangers, US another unit"

"M4 with 100 scopes" etc.

and from the other hand - most complicated and half year work like pack of jets/bombers without engine limitations

problem is how to do (my example) "cold war in Europe and usual infantry solider story" with "most modern units mixed with fantasy from CoD or MoH"

sory to say, but i remember one situation

i made Polish soldier in fleece jacket for winter, someone saw "black vest, super, special forces, super, when it will released"

but when it was found as fleece jacket for winter, it was not super anymore

real spec-ops would not wear digital desert + black vest to de-camo themselves (with exception of Polish Border Guard wearing black vest to multicam)

[[frl]myke 14]

I thought addonmaking was solely for our own enjoyment :)

If you share the fruits of your work (that you love doing) and others are having a fun time with it that´s great! And if some don´t like your work, fuck that, your doing it for yourself, not them.

edit: Gotta admit that i find most of the DLC suggestions being made during the last few weeks rather ridiculous.

Well then, time to announce that allstuff i'm actually working on will be kept for GLT Clan use only. This thread clearly shows that there is no need nor request for more community addons. As already someone said: no one uses it anyway.

And about the "own enjoyment", no one can ever tell me that he is not glancing at the downloadcounter of his works and feel some pride from time to time.

[Banderas 0]

Well

Addonmakers do their stuff, either for themeselves, for a group they MPing with or for the wide community. It's not only true for OFP/ArmA series. They of course have positive (in cases: bigger attention to details, better models/textures, ect...) and negative sides too: fluctuation is somewhat high in the "addonmaker club", projects can be taken forever to be completed, or more likely left half-maked, and fact that some addons don't reach even OFP standards. Many addonmakers have real life issues to attend, and most of them are working on their own.

Developers (since this is their job) can invest multiple more times into it, they have the experience and can make things faster. Also, it's not a mandatory to buy DLCs.

For me for example I'm surely will try Project Reality's stuff, even I have bought BAF. I don't see why I couldn't use official DLC and community addons at the same time.

Edit: one example for me are the CH-46 and CH-53 choppers for ArmA/Arma 2. Now I have the one made by Sfc. Itzhak, but it's still have a lot of faults, and updates are coming very slowly - I even got in doubt if those ever be updated. So if no-one makes a well working A2 standard CH-46/53, then if BI would pack it into a DLC, then I'd gladly buy that.

Myke: Don't be like that, a lot of people have your F-16, and we're looking forward for future versions too.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Banderas