Make pistols stronger

[arthur666 10]

I know that a suppressed 9x18 makarov is not a powerful handgun, but 2 shots at close range should at least take someone out of the fight, if not kill them. And this goes for the 9x19mm round (M9, MP5 etc.) as well. These things are so weak, a headshot doesn't usually kill. Can we make the small and suppressed pistols a little more useful? I mean, I'ld hate to start wishing for a knife... ;)

[NeMeSiS 11]

Yes, personally i was also a bit dissapointed by the power of the G17 at point blank range. It felt like i could do more damage by throwing the weapon in his face.

Edited November 25, 2010 by NeMeSiS

[That guy 10]

if your target is waring level III soft armor or plates, you're going to need a few more pistol rounds to drop him ;)

course thats in reality, not necessarily in game

[bigpickle 0]

Make them stronger I agree, a pistol is designed to be deadly with 1 or more shots at close range. a 9mm round leaves a big hole on exit, if it exits that is, but because of the low velocity (due to small amount of powder) and large bore it makes extensive wounds often ricocheting inside the body the way 5.56mm is designed to do.

So 1 round would normally do it. The reason why police and other users fire multiple rounds is so that no chance is taken of a miss at close range mainly because the next step the target could put them on top of you.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Bigpickle

[NeMeSiS 11]

if your target is waring level III soft armor or plates, you're going to need a few more pistol rounds to drop him ;)

True, to be honest i dont have a clue about the effect of a 9mm round on ceramic plates though i expected my enemy to be more harmed then just feeling slightly offended from being shot in the arms and chest. :p

[Banderas 0]

As far as I know, 9mm rounds are not very powerful in real life, I've seen a documentary where FBI trainees were instructed that in case they have to fire their issued weapon (at that time standard issue was 9mm P228), they had to fire almost all their bullets into the perperator/suspect, because if not a vital organ is hit then they won't recognize their own wounds for up to several minutes. So in my opinion, 9mm bullets are good as they are. The better solution would be to make "instantly lethal" areas (heart, brain, spine) in the human damage models instead of just general areas like torso, head, arms & legs, so let's say two-three 9mm rounds in the general chest area wouldn't mean immediate kill, but one hit in these vital organs would mean instant death.

[bigpickle 0]

shot in a plate will break ribs probably, especially if its a little plate that covers the heart like the Brits have up till the change to full plates about 3 years ago

[JdB 151]

A 9mm on a level III plate will not make much of an impact at all. Type IIA plates are meant for 9mm rounds, and are most often carried by Law Enforcement officers. Type III are what most of the troops in ArmA2 carry, and they are meant to stop a 7.62x51mm FMJ. Compared to that, the 9mm is puny. A 9mm might leave a bruise, but it certainly won't break a rib. Anything but a shot in the head will not kill someone with that level of protection (when actually shot on the plate obviously). Using a weapon fitted with a sound suppressor will remove even more of the punch that the round delivers. It may occur that you shoot an opponent in the head, and that it won't kill him though. The damage zones should be worked in more detail, rather than the ammunition made more powerful imo. Still, people do survive being shot to the head, 9mm isn't powerful enough to guarantee trauma that is fatal within seconds. But they should be out of action, no longer able to shoot back until healed (still unrealistic, but it's a reasonable compromise :p ).

The problem with 9mm and 5,56 ammo is that they are meant to injure rather than kill. It takes at least 2 soldiers to care for an injured man, both of whom will not be playing an active role in the battle anymore. One shot, three men down. A killed soldier isn't collected until after the battle is already over.

Additionally, the 9X18mm Makarov round is only about half as powerful as NATO 9X19mm rounds. Good for espionage, inadequate for use on the battlefield (just like the 7,65mm of the Å korpion).

Edited November 25, 2010 by JdB

[arthur666 10]

Well, I know that a 9mm round won't penetrate most modern body armors, but the situation that most recently annoyed me involved a suppressed M9, and a militiaman wearing civilian clothes, not an armored 1st line soldier. I have also made 5m face-shots that did not knock the target down. What really bothers me is when I sneak up behind an enemy and shoot him in the back of the head, and he doesn't even fall.

And while compared to .40S&W, .45ACP, 10mm and other modern pistol rounds, a 9x19 seems weak, it still has more power than a .38special, which will devastate a close-range, unarmored victim.

Edited November 25, 2010 by arthur666

[celery 8]

Colt, M9 and Makarov need to be more accurate, too. The Glock and revolver are accurate while the vanilla handguns spread bullets all over, so the argument of pistols being hard to aim is contradicted by new official content.

[arthur666 10]

Colt, M9 and Makarov need to be more accurate, too. The Glock and revolver are accurate while the vanilla handguns spread bullets all over, so the argument of pistols being hard to aim is contradicted by new official content.

I agree. While pistols are way harder to shoot accurately in RL, you would expect a Delta Operative to be a proficient marksman with a pistol, meaning taking time to aim, while not under fire, he should be able to make a headshot on a stationary target 20m away no problem. I can't do this ingame.

[TRexian 0]

I tend to agree that the Mak needs to be upgraded a bit. I have a mission where I use them against Takistani insurgents - no body armor. It can take upwards of 5 center-body-mass to put one down. Moreover, 2 or so headshots. Even a .22 headshot should be fatal. :)

Plus, I have an issue with the aim of the Mak. I understand pistols are not as accurate, but I have to aim *low* to hit CBM at ~50m. Like, at their knees, and I still see the rounds fly high (I think - sometimes it is hard to tell). I own a Mak 9x18. Love it. It isn't as strong as a .45 or Glock .40 (which I also own), but it is lethal, and generally accurate for its size.

I'm not saying it needs an overhaul, but a few good tweaks would be nice. :)

[ray243 11]

As far as I know, 9mm rounds are not very powerful in real life, I've seen a documentary where FBI trainees were instructed that in case they have to fire their issued weapon (at that time standard issue was 9mm P228), they had to fire almost all their bullets into the perperator/suspect, because if not a vital organ is hit then they won't recognize their own wounds for up to several minutes. So in my opinion, 9mm bullets are good as they are. The better solution would be to make "instantly lethal" areas (heart, brain, spine) in the human damage models instead of just general areas like torso, head, arms & legs, so let's say two-three 9mm rounds in the general chest area wouldn't mean immediate kill, but one hit in these vital organs would mean instant death.

I saw a video where a guy shoot a piece of wood, and the bullet on the other side becomes dust.

[enad 11]

Someone needs to make a ticket about this.

I would love the pistols to be more accurate and deadly. I had putting 5 bullets in a guy with him just standing there...

Oh and another thing...BIS needs to work on hit effects. It just bugs me, I don't know about anyone else, seeing my AI just standing up, getting shot up with no effect. I guess bullets don't hurt the AI..

[NeMeSiS 11]

Colt, M9 and Makarov need to be more accurate, too. The Glock and revolver are accurate while the vanilla handguns spread bullets all over, so the argument of pistols being hard to aim is contradicted by new official content.

Yes. More sway, less dispersion.

[Flash Thunder 10]

pistols need more polish and power

/end of thread

[Ulanthorn 10]

pistols need more polish and power

/end of thread

Pistols are secondary armament, and btw military grade Pistols are so unprecise because the trigger force is around 4,5kg for safety reasons. Fine tuned triggers are for SpecOps only because of better training. 9mm Pistols hits should never kill instantly exept in a lethal area.

The military grade full metal jacket bullets dont release much energy in body tissue.

I consider the way this is modeled in game quite o.k.

We habe inferior standard pistols (M9, Makarov)

Silenced and in turn even weaker pistols (M9 silenced, Makarov silenced)

High powered Revolver

Modern precision pistol (Glock)

Edited November 25, 2010 by Ulanthorn

[celery 8]

We habe inferior standard pistols (M9, Makarov)

Is Colt 1911 an inferior pistol? It has the same ridiculously wide cone of fire, and its sights are messed up to boot.

[Ulanthorn 10]

Is Colt 1911 an inferior pistol? It has the same ridiculously wide cone of fire, and its sights are messed up to boot.

the Colt 1911 is indeed messed up...you see I already forgot that it is there.

But technically a .45 ACP does not deliver more energy compared to a 9x19, it has more stoppign power due to higher Projectile weight and lower subsonic velocity resulting in a more comfortable (recoil and sound) firing behaviour and less tendency of passing through.

[arthur666 10]

Is Colt 1911 an inferior pistol? It has the same ridiculously wide cone of fire, and its sights are messed up to boot.

Well, many 1911 issued in WWII were quickly mass produced garbage, but the Springfield Armory versions carried by Special forces today are match-grade accurate, very nice pieces. So in Arma2, they should not be inferior weapons.

the Colt 1911 is indeed messed up...you see I already forgot that it is there.

But technically a .45 ACP does not deliver more energy compared to a 9x19, it has more stoppign power due to higher Projectile weight and lower subsonic velocity resulting in a more comfortable (recoil and sound) firing behaviour and less tendency of passing through.

No, a .45ACP kicks noticeably more than a 9mm. This is with normal Remington Express FMJ over-the-counter ammo, not special loads. You're right that they aren't louder. .45 has a heavy metallic "thunk" when fired, whereas a 9mm has that supersonic crack.

I personnally like my .40S&W Ruger. Splits the difference between power of a .45 and the capacity of a 9.

Edited November 26, 2010 by arthur666