Large Gripe about PMC DLC!

[-=2RTR=- Somnus 0]

Well, this is a very semantic discussion, but not very convincing IMO with all the deserved respect.

You were a soldier, you didn't earn enough money so now you're doing the same job for private companies rather than states. So that's a mercenary job for me : being a private soldier. The tiny difference may be that you're working for subcontractors of States. But mercenaries always worked directly or indirectly for states.

Privatizing the war is a big and fundamental mistake IMHO, cause it shouldn't be (only) a matter of money. When nobody really knows why a war happened apart from the economical point of view, then it's a major step back of our civilization.

You silly little goose... It's always been about money... The governments of today have just very, very properly convinced every civi it isn't.

Money and Power... WWI and II were not about anything more then more money and more power as well... There is no such thing as a just cause, or I have yet to see one. Nothing changed in Iraq, nothing will change here either, and hopefully everyone will very quickly forget that PMC/PSC/ whatever you need to call us even exist so we can get on with what we have been doing since the rise of the Simarians...

"young men fighting, old men talking [and getting richer]"...

Anyway... If there are any BIS out there if you could fire me a PM or something I would not be adverse as to helping you in anyway I can as to make your simulator just that much better and more accurate. Other then the next DLC keep up the great work!

---------- Post added at 03:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 AM ----------

Presuming that it portrays PMCs exclusively in a negative light, which isn't a given just yet. ;)

That is very true... Hopefully that article and interview was a poor representation of the new DLC...

[zampe 0]

...Roger...

Pretty damn good games coming out of BIS, eh!? After so many years this DLC is the only little complaint I have...

I see...

In times of conflict here in Bosnia, mainly came mercenaries (mostly criminals and psychopaths) who was fled from their native countries, and who was fit incredibly fast into conflict and quickly learned the local language.

I am surprised that no one remembered to make the DLC with the theme of Bosnia. There were 3 sides of the conflict Serbs, Croats and Muslim Bosniaks, who fought during the conflict, all with each, and there were also UN forces.

Edited October 15, 2010 by zampe

[-=2RTR=- Somnus 0]

Can't talk about Kosovo (or that area) mate... Sorry...

[NoRailgunner 0]

There have been reports that PMC's were shooting on troops, there were reports about PMC's do rape and murder. Guess no one is able to guarantee that all is fine and ok with every PMC. Hell even US SOF killed non-combatants and tried to fake it... War is a beast to humanity.

[guyfawkestom 60]

I see...

In times of conflict here in Bosnia, mainly came mercenaries mostly criminals and psychopaths who was fled from their native countries.

I am surprised that no one remembered to make the DLC with the theme of Bosnia. There were 3 sides of the conflict Serbs, Croats and Muslim Bosniaks, who fought during the conflict, all with each, and there were also UN forces.

Could say that Chernarus conflict sounds a bit like that. Or maybe inspiration was Georgia/Ossetia. Or even Moldavia/transnistria... well

The fact that "former jugoslavian wars" occured inside the Europe, not so long ago... maybe BIS did not want to hurt feelings ( there are some people on this forum that are (alphabetical order) Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, Slovenian... Sorry if I forget other nationalities. It was harsh also for murdered westerner UN peacekeepers). That's why it is more easy to set up the stories in countries like Borduria or Syldavia....

But to come back to PMCs topic, this is very delicate, for the public, to do a distinction with mercenaries : without any further reflexion, "you could just think about a guy paid to carry a weapon and able to use against people for money". Memories from african wars (Congo, Sierra Leone, Angola..) are harsh.

Basically, you are "contractor" to do war, in the mind of the public. At least the Army (in democracy) is (in appearance) under the control of the President/PrimeMinister/Parliament, indirectly under the control of electors...

Remember also that

ExecutiveOutcomes/Blackwater/Xe

did not do well for the reputation on the profession, that was a real event, that shocked a lot of people. Because of that, they think about PMCs as impossible to control or ready for everything for money.

Compare with Plant Geneticists in Europe : Because one or two corporations want to develop GMO for profits, people thinks that they are all madmen producing GMO for profits. :rolleyes:

I'm afraid reputation comes with the job.

I think you should not be offended by BIS. It is still a game, a work of fiction. After all, do you work for Black Elements ?

Edited October 15, 2010 by guyfawkestom

[royaltyinexile 175]

Hi sabelzahntiger,

Thanks for your post - I think it's interesting because it raises some criticism from the 'other' side of the coin. Certainly, there are enough views against PMCs on this forum, so it's interesting to justify thought-through criticism from a less expected angle. I judge our presentation of the faction to be appropriate so far, but let me explain a little more clearly.

As said to RPS, Private Contractors are a legitimate faction to add to the gameworld. Now, admittedly, this does not entail that the faction itself are entirely 'legitimate' - that's approaching the boundaries of subjectivity, where many people hold views - as expressed so far in this thread - that paint PMCs as mercenaries.

Yet, they remain legitimate because - as I've said - they are a 'perhaps unfortunate reality' of modern theatres of war. 'Unfortunate' for many balanced reasons; a 'reality' because of the increasingly central role that they play; 'perhaps' because nothing is so easily black and white, even on da internetz.

As TechnoTerrorist303 correctly pointed out, we also have to consider gameplay balancing. PMCs are an ‘independent’ faction in game, and it's up to the mission makers themselves to decide how to deploy them. Far from making sweeping political statements, or using tier one operators in our marketing assets, we add a faction to the game to provide interesting gameplay additions, balances, and opportunities.

What I would say, however, is that PMC does not set out to paint private operators as ‘mercs’ indeed, we’ve never referred to them as such. The campaign is character centric; it lets us focus upon individuals. Individuals with different belief systems or ways of doing things.

Now, I’m not going to blow smoke up anyone and say every action you take will have an effect on the narrative – our engine just doesn’t cater for that – but we are in the process of designing it so that you at least feel like, at certain times, you can make certain decisions.

Now, whether you choose to take an action as an individual, or make a decision based upon your view of what you think PMC would do, well, that’s a whole different chapter of videogame theory. For us, it’s the authors role to paint the picture, and the player’s duty to construct his understanding of the context.

Hope that helps to clarify a couple of points at least,

RiE

Edited October 15, 2010 by RoyaltyinExile
link fails

[Tonci87 163]

Iám also surprised that there is no Game (I dont know a single one) that deals with the Balkan War in the 1990s. This was the last big war in Europe and it seems to me as if everybody wants to ignore it (maybe because the UN did a really miserable job down there). I would love to have some Balkan DLCs or Mods. The Backgroundstory of Harvest Red reminded me a little bit of the balkan conflict, but only a little bit.

[rübe 127]

@sabelzahntiger:

Even if BIS portraits PMC as evil/dangerous/insane/whatever..., this still doesn't imply anything you're beeing afraid of. A game or a film about a serialkiller doesn't portrait all human beeings as evil/dangerous/insane/whatever. It's just (a story about) one guy and that's it. It's exactly the same for PMC in the Arma-universe: they don't imply anything at all. We may be served a totally wacky group of PMC's, corrupted beyond anything, makeing up a story you may like or not. They could aswell portrait them as heros, if they wanna tell that story or something in between. Whatever ... and so what?

Give it a break. Only because you happen to be a mercenary doesn't mean that nobody is allowed to write stories about "bad" mercenaries anymore. Basically you demand that BIS portraits them as "good" for the reason that "not all are bad". ... Wait, what?

A bit more distance to this subject (the game/dlc, not mercenaries in general) may be a good idea.

Also, as swiss, I can tell you that not everybody out there thinks bad of mercenaries. At least in our country one is more or less supposed to be proud of our very own swiss mercenaries... granted though, "those guys" "down there" are bad guys, no question about that, bwahahaha ;)

I'm also surprised that there is no Game (I dont know a single one) that deals with the Balkan War in the 1990s. This was the last big war in Europe and it seems to me as if everybody wants to ignore it ...

It takes time to process ("aufarbeiten" in german) history. A lot. Plus this topic is still a hot one. Maybe the war is over, but the struggle is certainly going on. As such, it is a lot easier or less touchy to write a story/game inside the realms of, say, WWII for example.

As long as "the history books" aren't written (to some extend), you probably won't see a balkan war game. I'd assume some films about it will be first (preceded by lots of literature of course).

Edited October 15, 2010 by ruebe

[-=2RTR=- Somnus 0]

There have been reports that PMC's were shooting on troops, there were reports about PMC's do rape and murder. Guess no one is able to guarantee that all is fine and ok with every PMC. Hell even US SOF killed non-combatants and tried to fake it... War is a beast to humanity.

All I know mate... Is in my short time on the circuit I have never met anyone that has done any of that... I have worked over Ugandans who have and we treated em with contempt because that is what they deserved.

Maybe I and the lads I work with are oddities but I will never compromise my honour under any circumstances and I know every lad I have worked with (UK, Aussie, Kiwi, South African, Irish) to date will not compromise theirs either. Remember you have to look yourself in the mirror every morning and go to sleep with your mind running through the terrible things you may have done. I can still look myself in the mirror with pride and I sleep like a baby every night I'm not working.

Also don't forget that the UN in Africa as we speak is raping and murdering woman and children. Everyone sees them as saints. There was a English 'Mercenary' some years ago that had, had enough of watching the UN commit these outrageous crimes. He started to kill them and drive them out with his men.

Some of us fight the good fight... It would be nice to see this modelled in ArmA 2 as oppose to the stereo type that may be modeled.

All this aside still a brilliant series...

[rübe 127]

Some of us fight the good fight...

The good fight, hu? :rolleyes:

It would be nice to see this modelled in ArmA 2 as oppose to the stereo type that may be modeled.

Modeled? Weapons are beeing "modeled". Vehicles and physics and stuff. You're talking about storytelling and as such there is no single truth to be told. So BIS is absolutely free to tell any story they like.

Live with it. :D

[Cat_Shannon 10]

@sabelzahntiger

Don't worry mate, there are people out there that do have a different view on the commercial security sector -- and most importantly, the people working for it! -- than what the media is feeding to the masses.

It is a sensitive topic and thus naturally attracts controversial view points. But just because the media is often generalizing the topic doesn't mean that people don't have their very own opinion about it. The world isn't all black and white after all. ;-)

Coming back to the initial post, I also hope that BI is painting a different picture in their campaign than the usual gung-ho, trigger happy ex-elite trooper one. But overall I'm positive about this add-on and really looking forward to it.

P.S. While being on the subject, if anyone is interested I can really recommend Bob Shepherd's "The Circuit". It's an outstanding read.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Cat_Shannon

[-=2RTR=- Somnus 0]

@RoyaltyinExile

Roger your last... Thank you for your reply... And I know nothing I say can and will sway views that have been so harshly smashed into everyone via the media over the last couple of years...

I will purchase all BIS DLC... You are the only develpoer that I will by DLC from...

That being said thank you for your reply and thank you for finally creating the BAF DLC! I mean it is about time that the lads got some recognition in the gaming world. I have to say after 10 years plus of everyone constantly firing out Yank kit it's nice to see some other views of the battlefield. The Germans have some brilliant kit and their Para's have been out here for some time... Aussies and Canucks too... The best part is you've now open the flood gates to fire out loads of country's kit...

Anyways thanks agian for your reply... And also if BIS could use someone with my skillset it would be nice to get outta the Middle East... All the best!

[bigpickle 0]

I am sorry but exactly who forced you to be a soldier...?

I'm not gonna put my initial reaction to this comment because I don't want to get banned from the forum because I enjoy the community, but mate show some respect, whether you feel he deserves it for being a PMC or not, he was a regular serving squaddie for his country at one point and still is using his solider skills to keep his buddies alive, the only difference is who pays him now.

The respect that should be given is same as the respect that should be given to every solider that has ever been. War is scary as f##k, fact. 80% of people of this planet think they know fear, until they are in combat, the respect you should show and most people do, is for soldiers bravery, your entire mind is screaming at you to run the other way, do you think you could face that fear and defeat it?

Soldiers, 99% of the time in today's age make that choice to follow that profession, that is brave.

This is an example about morality, clearly the OS is a man of morals and does not want to be grouped with the opposite.

A mercenary will fight and kill for the highest price, 90% of the time those missions or objectives are unethical, illegal, and morally wrong, hence why organizations have to buy a man to complete the objective.

A PMC is someone who will protect a company's assets using soldiering training and skills, following RoE's is standard. 90% of the time those company's are company's needed to rebuild infrastructure to the war torn country, and not to secure drug trafficking routes or assassinate opposition to business deals as examples of the type of war mercs might be asked to conduct

@JoJo, mate keep fighting the good fight, keep your head down bud and get home safe.

S!

Edited October 15, 2010 by Bigpickle

[4 IN 1 0]

I see...

In times of conflict here in Bosnia, mainly came mercenaries (mostly criminals and psychopaths) who was fled from their native countries, and who was fit incredibly fast into conflict and quickly learned the local language.

I am surprised that no one remembered to make the DLC with the theme of Bosnia. There were 3 sides of the conflict Serbs, Croats and Muslim Bosniaks, who fought during the conflict, all with each, and there were also UN forces.

During the conflict in Bosnia there are a lots of mercenaries operating over there, in fact UNPF by that time have caught many professional mercenaries who was former SF from different country, not only criminals and psychopaths, those who get caught were sent home, only to take the next flight to got back into the area once they got off the plane that sent them home:rolleyes:

[Tonci87 163]

@ruebe There are a few films about the Balkan war already, but what is really missing is the process of this war. I went to School in germany and had history as main subject. We only speaked about the war once! Only one hour to speak about a topic so huge and complicated that you could talk a whole year about it. Its sad that this is almost the standart in all European countries, exept the balkan ones. I sometimes hav the feeling that people don´t want to know everything about this war, they dont want to face reality and accept that there is the possibilty of genocide in europe, in our modern age. Because of that many people don´t understand how the war started, why it started and why so cruel things happened. Simply noone cares. people learn from history to not make the same mistakes again, in this case it is very unlikely that someone will learn something from this conflict. As said before, there are already a few (really good) movies and lots of literature about this subject. I would love to see some Games about it too.

If someone is interested in knowing more about the topic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

[neokika 62]

Hi,

Dont get me wrong, but IMHO, a PMC/Merc are no better then a street gangster that takes money to kill or beat someone.

_neo_

[bobario 10]

Hi,

Dont get me wrong, but IMHO, a PMC/Merc are no better then a street gangster that takes money to kill or beat someone.

_neo_

Like the man said, PMC`s have what they call ROE, which almost all operators follow. Otherwise the company loses the contract. The painful truth is, it is cheaper to deploy contractors to do some of the security work than it is to deploy regular military units to do the same job. PMC`s are a result of governments either lacking in manpower, being too cheap to fund the deployment of more troops, or lessening the media impact that KIA friendly troops has. Private operators KIA or WIA never gets into the press.

All private operators have to be ex-military personnel, so tend to be the calibre of person attracted to that profession in the first place. If they didn`t have at least some sense of loyalty and duty they wouldn`t have joined their nations army in the first place.

In my opinion, the only criticism you could level at PMC`s is that they are doing their old job for more money, and not through a sense of patriotism or altruism.

[zampe 0]

During the conflict in Bosnia there are a lots of mercenaries operating over there, in fact UNPF by that time have caught many professional mercenaries who was former SF from different country, not only criminals and psychopaths, those who get caught were sent home, only to take the next flight to got back into the area once they got off the plane that sent them home:rolleyes:

I speak from the perspective of the unit where I was initially as a minor 17years old "boy". :)

We had a German which had broken jaw of Uzi shot sometime before, who was hardly spoke.

and a little Italian who is constantly smoking weed, and always dragged a pack of dogs behind. (convicted and fled from Italy of course) :D

[liquidpinky 11]

Hi,

Dont get me wrong, but IMHO, a PMC/Merc are no better then a street gangster that takes money to kill or beat someone.

_neo_

Then wouldn't that also stand for countries who don't have national service but have professional armies?

[neokika 62]

Anyway, I just want to invite everyone to stop making war and come join us in Arma 2... =D

Edit: Yes Liquidpinky, all of them...National or professional. :D

_neo_

Edited October 15, 2010 by neokika

[4 IN 1 0]

I speak from the perspective of the unit where I was initially as a minor 17years old "boy". :)

We had a German which had broken jaw of Uzi shot sometime before, who was hardly spoke.

and a little Italian who is constantly smoking weed, and always dragged a pack of dogs behind. (convicted and fled from Italy of course) :D

I wouldn't be surprise about that, afterall, there were people there who hold and shoot a LAW pointing backwards;)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

They call them one shot flame throwers :p

[zampe 0]

I wouldn't be surprise about that, afterall, there were people there who hold and shoot a LAW pointing backwards;)

have one friend (childhood friend) who was an expert in RPG and M80 "Zolja" shooting from closed rooms covered in a blanket that would not be burned.

the funny thing is when we heard a shot, he would come little later with a blanket over his head which is smoked :D

Edited October 15, 2010 by zampe

[Tonci87 163]

There were really many mercs down there during the balkan war. I even remember a group of nazis from all over the world that fought on the croatian side, they really thought that croatia would become a nationalsozialist state and that they could march down the street greeting hitler......well they were really good cannon fooder........

(They were really used like that, no kidding)

[-=2RTR=- Somnus 0]

I'm not gonna put my initial reaction to this comment because I don't want to get banned from the forum because I enjoy the community, but mate show some respect, whether you feel he deserves it for being a PMC or not, he was a regular serving squaddie for his country at one point and still is using his solider skills to keep his buddies alive, the only difference is who pays him now.

The respect that should be given is same as the respect that should be given to every solider that has ever been. War is scary as f##k, fact. 80% of people of this planet think they know fear, until they are in combat, the respect you should show and most people do, is for soldiers bravery, your entire mind is screaming at you to run the other way, do you think you could face that fear and defeat it?

Soldiers, 99% of the time in today's age make that choice to follow that profession, that is brave.

This is an example about morality, clearly the OS is a man of morals and does not want to be grouped with the opposite.

A mercenary will fight and kill for the highest price, 90% of the time those missions or objectives are unethical, illegal, and morally wrong, hence why organizations have to buy a man to complete the objective.

A PMC is someone who will protect a company's assets using soldiering training and skills, following RoE's is standard. 90% of the time those company's are company's needed to rebuild infrastructure to the war torn country, and not to secure drug trafficking routes or assassinate opposition to business deals as examples of the type of war mercs might be asked to conduct

@JoJo, mate keep fighting the good fight, keep your head down bud and get home safe.

S!

Actually funny story I'm still getting paid by the same people! HA! MOD and the DOD... Go figure... Nevertheless you are a rock ape and... No! Joking mate... Nice one! Your not in KAF are you?

---------- Post added at 07:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 AM ----------

Hi,

Dont get me wrong, but IMHO, a PMC/Merc are no better then a street gangster that takes money to kill or beat someone.

_neo_

Actually... You wanna know the truth? I am sitting here in the FOB, just finished eating a small local child... Nothing like a cleaned (several times) afghani childs leg over the open flame... Tastes like chicken!

Seriously... jackass... pretty funny... I was waiting for one of these posts.... Kisses!