Gun myths

[shadow 6]

Problem with subsonic bullets is that they don't put out a lot of energy and thus makes it hard to make an automatic weapon that uses them.

Not really. Normally subsonic loads uses a heavier bullet.

Normally you would use a 147gr (grain) bullet for subsonic 9x19 and use 115-124gr bullets for supersonic loads. This is generally not an issue with .45ACP or larger.

Force=(weight*velocity)/1000

Lets compare a 147gr subsonic bullet travelling at 950f/ps to a 115gr supersonic bullet travelling at 1200 f/ps (typical result with a 5" handgun).

(147*950)/1000= 139.65

(115*1200)/1000= 138

In this scenario the subsonic load is travelling with a stronger force.

[echo1 0]

I think you've misunderstood my point -

Most automatic weapons are dependent on the energy generated by the explosion of the propellant - either using the gases (gas operated) or recoil (blowback operated). Subsonic rounds generate less recoil and gas because of the lighter load. Consequently, most rifle caliber subsonic cartridges will turn the weapon into a bolt action rifle because it cannot cock the bolt by itself. AFAIK, the same happens when certain special cartridges are used with semi-automatic shotguns.

I think in the case of the MP5SD, they just figured that they could get away with using regular full power cartridges and make it sufficiently silent, so that's what they did. I'm sure that there may have been additional considerations that were valid then but not now.

[Inkompetent 0]

But yeah the supersonic silenced bit makes little sense, assault rifles with supressers have pretty limited use, you're still going to alert everyone all the same but your exact location wont be as easy to find and thats about it.

That's exactly what is so good, but also exactly why standard infantry isn't issued with them. Even though a suppressor will increase your muzzle velocity and make you more accurate neither of them will make any real difference for a grunt's capability to fire, it'll add weight and cost money, and they'll make so much noise anyway (especially when the machine guns open up) that it defeats the purpose of being harder to discover.

An assault rifle does have good enough reach to benefit from the sound masking, but probably not for line infantry. Special forces, snipers/spotters and recon squads on the other hand though...

[echo1 0]

They're also expensive and have a limited firing life.

[ricbar89 0]

That's exactly what is so good, but also exactly why standard infantry isn't issued with them. Even though a suppressor will increase your muzzle velocity and make you more accurate neither of them will make any real difference for a grunt's capability to fire, it'll add weight and cost money, and they'll make so much noise anyway (especially when the machine guns open up) that it defeats the purpose of being harder to discover.

An assault rifle does have good enough reach to benefit from the sound masking, but probably not for line infantry. Special forces, snipers/spotters and recon squads on the other hand though...

Dont get me wrong i can see benifit to a suppressors on a assault rifle, but on the subject of the MP5SD i always thought of it as a "silent" (very quiet) weapon, something you could use fairly up close and personal without giving the game away so didnt think it would be supersonic.

I blame CWC, it made next to no noise in that. :p

[Inkompetent 0]

They're also expensive and have a limited firing life.

About 30.000 rounds. So the firing life isn't the issue really. Won't have to buy new ones often. But indeed they are expensive if you need tens of thousands of them.

[pre-Vet 10]

A propper supressor on precision rifles could act like a sort of compressor and barrel extention, giving the bullit extra energy and, more important, the same amount of energy every time.

Subsonic ammunition prevents the distictive *snap* when the bullet flies by and breaks the sound barrier but even with supersonic munitions a supressor would be a welcome pierce of gear. Because it will keep in the exhaust gases you wont have leafs and dirt kicking up when you shoot so you will be harder to spot. Besides you dont need to wear hearing protection.(depending on the type of supressor/weapon btw)

To bad only SOF gets these toys issued ;)

[ziiip 1]

I tried a silenced SCAR again in OA and it was suspiciously quiet. ;)

[Baff1 0]

A propper supressor on precision rifles could act like a sort of compressor and barrel extention, giving the bullit extra energy and, more important, the same amount of energy every time.

That's a negative matey.

It does the exact opposite of this. It is an expansion chamber not a compression chamber.

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

.

And that's for example why the MP5SD drops its ammunition to subsonic with its pressure-lowering barrel/suppressor design: It can then use standard, fairly high-velocity 9mmP ammunition and still avoid the supersonic crack.

A silencer doesn't reduce the velocity of a bullet.

It is an expansion chamber added to the end of the barrel or incorporated into the end of the barrel. It has a neutral effect on the bullet's velocity, neither accelerating nor decelerating it.

The bullet is accelerated inthe barrel, the compression chamber, but in the expansion chamber, the silencer, there is no compression so it ceases to accelerate the bullet at that point.

Subsonic ammuntion does not necessarily use a lower powder charge to produce lower velocity. The particular subsonic ammunition I use actually has a greater charge in it than the supersonic ammunition I use for the same gun. Perhaps the bullets are heavier?

Edited August 30, 2010 by Baff1

[shadow 6]

I think you've misunderstood my point -

Most automatic weapons are dependent on the energy generated by the explosion of the propellant - either using the gases (gas operated) or recoil (blowback operated). Subsonic rounds generate less recoil and gas because of the lighter load.

The heavier the bullet the more propellant is needed to push it to achieve equal velocity. That is why a heavier bullet is used in subsonic ammo for recoil-operated weapons. In effect the recoil is close to identical in the two examples I posted earlier.

I tried it with a USP9SD I borrowed. Personally I prefer .45 with a supressor (same ammo regardless if I'm using a supressor or not). 230gr, 920f/ps with the 6" barrel of the MK23.

[Baff1 0]

.45 is a natural choice of calibre, as it's all subsonic by default.

[max power 21]

.45 is a natural choice of calibre, as it's all subsonic by default.

It's not necessarily, and especially not it fired out of a long barrel. Some 'subsonic' .45 pistol loads become supersonic if fired out of a long gun.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Max Power

[shadow 6]

It's not necessarily, and especially not it fired out of a long barrel. Some 'subsonic' .45 pistol loads become supersonic if fired out of a long gun.

Thats correct. Role of thumb is for every inch you add 100 f/ps.

But .45 is not commonly used in SMGs and rifles. I can only think of UMP45, UMC45 and the old Thompson. I'm sure there are more but still the .45ACP is mostly used in handguns only.

Just to show that a supressed .45 still has some kick here's my MK23 w/B&T Impulse II-A supressor and lasersight from Laserdevices. (Sorry if speed is slow).

The clip was recorded using a Samsung S8000 Jet.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Shadow

[Baff1 0]

That silenced rifle in Hidden and Dangerous 2 is a 45.

It's an American calibre so Thompson, Ingrams, Colt etc.

[shadow 6]

That silenced rifle in Hidden and Dangerous 2 is a 45.

That would be the De Lisle

[max power 21]

Thats correct. Role of thumb is for every inch you add 100 f/ps.

But .45 is not commonly used in SMGs and rifles. I can only think of UMP45, UMC45 and the old Thompson. I'm sure there are more but still the .45ACP is mostly used in handguns only.

Just to show that a supressed .45 still has some kick here's my MK23 w/B&T Impulse II-A supressor and lasersight from Laserdevices. (Sorry if speed is slow).

The clip was recorded using a Samsung S8000 Jet.

Lots of old submachineguns and some new ones use the .45 ACP. Off of the top of my head we have the Uzi, Mac 10, m3 in addition to the ones you mentioned. There is also the Kriss.

The reason I mentioned it was because I was doing some work for CWR Pro that involved a complicated spreadsheet on the firearms of OFP. I found that neither the 9mm nor the .45 suppressed UZI would never have subsonic ammunition without special loadings because the common subsonic loads that I was able to research were all supersonic coming out of it.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Max Power

[Inkompetent 0]

A silencer doesn't reduce the velocity of a bullet.

It is an expansion chamber added to the end of the barrel or incorporated into the end of the barrel. It has a neutral effect on the bullet's velocity, neither accelerating nor decelerating it.

The bullet is accelerated inthe barrel, the compression chamber, but in the expansion chamber, the silencer, there is no compression so it ceases to accelerate the bullet at that point.

If looking in detail at how it works when firing you are of course right. I just didn't go that much into detail (and I did mention the barrel being special-designed in my post). The end result for the shooter is a bullet 'lowered' to subsonic speeds though, even though it in more exact terms indeed would be a bullet never having been accelerated to supersonic :)

[maturin 12]

I tried a silenced SCAR again in OA and it was suspiciously quiet. ;)

Vanilla suppressed gunshots (are awful) are created with subsonic SD ammo in mind. So it should be quieter than the sound of a suppressed M4 you might find online.

[USSRsniper 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvF4yurWSc0

Nagant revolver with suppressor, does not sound like a jet engine and is quieter than Glock with suppressor.

Edited September 1, 2010 by USSRsniper

[max power 21]

Well, that's because target shooting loads of the 7.62x38mmR round are pathetic. The very rare military cartridge would probably be louder. I suppose if you were some kind of biker hitman and really wanted a suppressed revolver, this would be the one you want! Quiet, and you don't have to chase around your brass after- however, I think the fact that you're shooting such a rare weapon with a proprietary cartridge would sort of nullify any kind of benefits of using a weapon that doesn't leave any brass behind.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Max Power

[Laqueesha 474]

The Commando shit, I could let that slide (perhaps Arnie reloaded off-screen), but that Back to the Future shit, that made me want to rip my hair out. Come on, not one round penetrated the vest or struck his head or limbs? Even if all the bullets struck the vest and didn't penetrate, the trauma and force alone would be enough to kill you.

Nagant revolver with suppressor, does not sound like a jet engine and is quieter than Glock with suppressor.

Remember that the type of ammunition you use is very important if a suppressor is used. The greatest suppressor in the world is not going to make a difference if one is using the wrong type of ammunition.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Laqueesha

[Baff1 0]

Actually, I notice very little difference between ammuntion types with my suppressor.

Except that the subsonics are 4p more expensive.

I doubt I will bother paying the extra 4p in future purchases.

[pre-Vet 10]

That's a negative matey.

It does the exact opposite of this. It is an expansion chamber not a compression chamber.

new surfire ones are good at doing this, there is a lot of development lately on supressors especially by surfire.

and I never played hide and seek with you so dont call me matey ;)

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

the thing you are shooting at will notice the difference between sub- and supersonic because the bullet shouldn't make the snapping noise when shooting subsonic.

not really relevant when you dont have human opfor.

[Baff1 0]

For me it's more a question of the range I engage my targets at.

It is important to me that nearby prey doesn't go to ground. I can kill a lot more if I don't alert the entire field every time I fire.

The supersonic crack becomes an issue when I fire alongside/parallel to walls or buildings. This reverbs that crack all the way down the wall or building as it flies past it making a hell fo a racket. Otherwise the sound is not really loud enough to alert anything, I find.

So occasionally a supersonic round and the enviroment conspires to make a really loud noise, but mostly it's not noticeable to me.

Perhaps if you were firing a few supersonic rounds at the same target it might get alarmed by the crack.

Typically I use a shotgun to hunt with. One shot is usually enough.

new surfire ones are good at doing this, there is a lot of development lately on supressors especially by surfire.

Incorrect old son, Surefire silencers don't do this either.

http://www.surefire.com/ReinventingtheSuppressor

P.S. despite their sales pitch, they look the same as many of the others to me. The usual principle they all use.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Baff1

[Inkompetent 0]

Yep. No matter how well made, it is still just a reflex-suppressor. Dunno how much one *can* advance in that area aside from trying to reduce the zero-shift.