The aftermath of erfurt

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A good official statistics reference of guns and crime is this:<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, it was a good source in 1993-94. This is 2002. In case you haven't noticed.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 28 2002,06:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A good official statistics reference of guns and crime is this:<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, it was a good source in 1993-94. This is 2002. In case you haven't noticed.<span id='postcolor'>

No, they have more recent reports too, if you bothered to check.

[Wobble 1]

cases of people being saved.. possably from death due to their owning of firearms outnumbers deaths caused by firearms by such a high number that that by itself is reason not to ban them

especially considering almost all crimes are commited by illegally had firearms anyway.. which any change in LAWS would net in any way effect..

maby insted of trying to punish the people who actually follow laws and deserve the right to protect themselves.. goverments should actually try and crack down on ILLEGAL guns and the criminals that use them..

makes alot of sense to punish 99.9 percent of a population for the actions of .01 percent..  considering that the 99.9 percent account for only 10% of gun related crims and the .01 percent accounts for 90%..  yea.. lets punish the biggest majority.. that causes the least crime..

smart indeed

yea.. plent of sense.. gang members killa bunch of people with illegal automatic AK-47s imported from china.. so they crack down on legally bought semi automatic SKS rifles... lots of sense there.. yes.. dandy

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 28 2002,06:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many are you willing to sacrefice for your right to bear arms? <span id='postcolor'>

LOL, thats quite a point you make.

Hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers died to preserve that right and all the others in the U.S. constitution, like the right to free speech.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmm.. I don't remember any US soldiers dying for that. The constitution was made after the revolutionary war, right?

Anyway that war wasn't about freedom of speech, it was about taxes, but that is another story.

The freedom of speech is a globaly accepted right. The gun bearing right is an American quirk. It is only there because the constitution is severly outdated and was written for the times when there was a risk that the Brits might want to retake their colony. What's up with that anyway? Every other normal country in the world rewrites it's law at least once every hundred years.

And Tyler, I thought you were Canadian. What's up with this US idolizing?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,06:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">makes alot of sense to punish 99.9 percent of a population for the actions of .01 percent..  considering that the 99.9 percent account for only 10% of gun related crims and the .01 percent accounts for 90%..  yea.. lets punish the biggest majority.. that causes the least crime..<span id='postcolor'>

Why can't you get it into your skull: IT IS THE SAME GUNS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT

Legally purchased guns get stolen and used in crime. Legally owned guns provide a source for the criminals. The majority (>78%) of all "illegal" guns are former legal guns, produced and purchased in the US that then were stolen by criminals. Eliminate the legal guns and you eliminate a big source for the criminals.

For reference see the one I posted several times earlier, page 4.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm.. I don't remember any US soldiers dying for that. The constitution was made after the revolutionary war, right?

<span id='postcolor'>

I wasn't referring to that war alone, just about every war since then.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Tyler, I thought you were Canadian. What's up with this US idolizing?<span id='postcolor'>

I am Canadian and damn proud of it. Idolizing is it? Whatever you say, I have more in common with U.S. folk than I do with you commies on the other side of the pond. Unfortuneately, our constitution was based on a British model and not on our own. I am defending my beliefs because they are also the beliefs of a legitimate government, I am using the 2nd amendment of the U.S. constitution as a base for an argument. Call it what you want, I don't care.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, they have more recent reports too<span id='postcolor'>

Ohhh, 1995 is it? Whoa! I was way off!

Tyler

[Wobble 1]

OK ok ok.. lets quite the basic gun VS anti-gun bullshit.. both sides have.. at the same time a good argument.. nad no argument.. why? because what works in one place may not in another.. there are examples where a strictening of gun laws have lower crime.. and there are examples where it has caused it to skyrocket..

there is no black/white.. no right wrong.. so lets quite the un-winable argument.. its been going on forever and it always will be...

INSTED

lets get constructive..

what do you think would be good ammendments to the laws? the only dont is an outright ban.. as that is not addressing the problem except in a few cases.. soo.. what would be good.. lets address the punishment.. not the prevention..

here are my ideas:

1: make ALL guns.. shotguns, pistols.. airguns regestered just like a cars license plate cops can instantly look at the serial number, enter it into the computer and see who owns it just like a car..

why is this important?

2: possesion of an unregestered gun is punishable by having it confisgated and losing the privelage to own a gun for.. say 5 years. also a full investigation can be ordered to check if the gun's ballistics match that of any rounds recovered from any recent shooting incidents.. *if possable

3: FAILING to report a theft of your gun is the same.. I.E. if someone turns up with your gun and you never reported it stolen.. you get into trouble just the same..

AMMEND: a person can only posses another persons gun if that person is preasent with them the whole time of possession.

4: full mental evaluation by a licensed professional and a writeup of your phycological profile and background check is MANDITORY for the purchase of ANY firearm.. not just handguns..

5: any convictions of anything more than a speeding ticket, or parking ticket or other minor stuff.. no gun.. period.. sorry UNLESS it has been 10 or more years since the offence and pending a full mental evaluation by a professional.. if it was a crime serious enough to require a jail sentence.. no gun.. never.. no ifs ands or buts..

6:stricter penalties for gun related crimes all around.. period.. they are too lax now...

7: homes with children who wish to own ANY firearm(s) must FIRST purchase a gun safe adaquit for the storage of those firearms.. THEN and only then may they have their gun.. sure gun safes are expensive.. but if you buy one you damn sure will use it.

there, those are MY ideas so far..

and thats for ANY country. .US, UK.. wherever.. they make sense anywhere I think..

and would these laws cost more money? shit yes! but hey.. there is no price on human safty IMO.. plus it would be alot less than enforcing a total gun ban and confisgation and enforcment.. of such a law...

[Wobble 1]

P.S. im not participating in the oterh thread like this anymore.. they are virtually about the same thing..

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 28 2002,06:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm.. I don't remember any US soldiers dying for that. The constitution was made after the revolutionary war, right?

<span id='postcolor'>

I wasn't referring to that war alone, just about every war since then.

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, that is a good one. That is a really good one, LMAO. Let me see if I understood you correctly: You say that every war that the US has faught has been about protecting the constitution? Umm. yeah right.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Tyler, I thought you were Canadian. What's up with this US idolizing?<span id='postcolor'>

I am Canadian and damn proud of it. Idolizing is it? Whatever you say, I have more in common with U.S. folk than I do with you commies on the other side of the pond. Unfortuneately, our constitution was based on a British model and not on our own. I am defending my beliefs because they are also the beliefs of a legitimate government, I am using the 2nd amendment of the U.S. constitution as a base for an argument. Call it what you want, I don't care. <span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so now all Europeans are communists right? Nah, I wont get upset. You colonies are just like little children rebelling. When you grow up and are seven or eight hundred years old, and get your own colonies you will know what I am talking about. And you are learning... gun laws *are* getting stricter and it will eventually lead to a model á la EU for USA also. Some of you gun toting mainacs will be kicking and screaming, but that wont change anything.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, they have more recent reports too<span id='postcolor'>

Ohhh, 1995 is it? Whoa! I was way off!

<span id='postcolor'>

The latest report was from 2000. You could have looked that  up directly, instead of arguing over pointless things.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,07:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> INSTED

lets get constructive..

what do you think would be good ammendments to the laws? the only dont is an outright ban.. as that is not addressing the problem except in a few cases.. soo.. what would be good.. lets address the punishment.. not the prevention..

<span id='postcolor'>

*Caugh* That is strictly a pro-gun point of view. But, ok, I'll listen...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1: make ALL guns.. shotguns, pistols.. airguns regestered just like a cars license plate cops can instantly look at the serial number, enter it into the computer and see who owns it just like a car..

<span id='postcolor'>

What do you mean? All guns (except airguns) are registered already. At least here and I thought it was the same in the US.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2: possesion of an unregestered gun is punishable by having it confisgated and losing the privelage to own a gun for.. say 5 years. also a full investigation can be ordered to check if the gun's ballistics match that of any rounds recovered from any recent shooting incidents.. *if possable<span id='postcolor'>

Nothing new here. In Sweden you go to jail for possesing a gun you havn't bought legally (all legal guns are registered).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3: FAILING to report a theft of your gun is the same.. I.E. if someone turns up with your gun and you never reported it stolen.. you get into trouble just the same..

<span id='postcolor'>

We have that one too. The problem is enforcing that law since a small percentage of stolen guns surface.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4: full mental evaluation by a licensed professional and a writeup of your phycological profile and background check is MANDITORY for the purchase of ANY firearm.. not just handguns..<span id='postcolor'>

Now, this is I think a very good idea. That would be good to see it implemented.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">5: any convictions of anything more than a speeding ticket, or parking ticket or other minor stuff.. no gun.. period.. sorry UNLESS it has been 10 or more years since the offence and pending a full mental evaluation by a professional.. if it was a crime serious enough to require a jail sentence.. no gun.. never.. no ifs ands or buts..<span id='postcolor'>

A bit fascist isnt it? I would rather try to see to it that criminals don't get guns in the first place.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6:stricter penalties for gun related crimes all around.. period.. they are too lax now...

<span id='postcolor'>

Won't help. Except perhaps that they cannot commit crimes while in jail. Locking everybody up is not a solution. I think that the crime problem in America is directly related to the big social differences between the rich and the poor, the white and the black.. and so on. Instead of punishing more I think a more constructive healing process is needed. There are numrous statistics that show that increasing the punishment doesn't reduce crime.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7: homes with children who wish to own ANY firearm(s) must FIRST purchase a gun safe adaquit for the storage of those firearms.. THEN and only then may they have their gun.. sure gun safes are expensive.. but if you buy one you damn sure will use it.<span id='postcolor'>

In EU you have to have a gun safe by law, with or without you having children. That is a reasonable demand, I think. It also reduces the number of guns stolen.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and thats for ANY country. .US, UK.. wherever.. they make sense anywhere I think..<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I am kind of happy with the laws we have now. It is not impossible to get a license, but it is pretty hard and requires an effort. It takes you a minimum of one year before you can bring home a gun (6 months minimum for the first gun with the maximum calbre .22).

Wobble - those were not bad ideas, most of them are however already implemented here and what you are suggesting is a relaxation of them. It would probably be very good to enforce them in the US, and I think that gun laws *are* getting stricter, so hopefully they will come eventually.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Denoir- i wouldnt count on it.

Anyway, different strokes for different folks

gun banning wouldnt work in the US

it would be unworkable, theres too much proliferation for a ban anytime soon, the criminals would still have massive stockpiles of weapons to draw on,

but then Europes getting the same from eastern europe countries now.

let it die.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Satchel @ April 27 2002,10:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just found on Spiegel, they have a picture of the shooter:

<span id='postcolor'>

private pyle!

[Wobble 1]

that went through my head too

[Warin 0]

Y'know Denoir, for such an anti gun fanatic, I find it rather odd that you have those nifty military patches on your sig.  After all, they do generally use guns.

And do you play OFP?

Hypocrite.

As for the UK, their gun laws have done NOTHING to curb the illegal use of firearms.

If you are interested in reading some FACTS, try this.  And yes, it's from some pissed off sports shooters in the uk...but it's filled with reliable and honest facts, as well as all the referencing you can need.  They make this tshirt that sums up about how the legal gun owners in the UK feel about things.

I am not a big fan of the rather casual manner in which firearms can be obtained in the US.  But I dont believe taking legal firearms away from people will help prevent tragedies like this one.  Private Pyle there owned his guns legally..but whats to say he wouldnt have found illegal ones for the same purpose?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ April 28 2002,20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Y'know Denoir, for such an anti gun fanatic, I find it rather odd that you have those nifty military patches on your sig.  After all, they do generally use guns.

And do you play OFP?

Hypocrite.<span id='postcolor'>

I am not an anti gun fanatic. I have used more guns in my life than you have seen on a picture. Those 'nifty' military patches are from the units I have done service in. I am the owner of two handguns and I shoot at least twice a week. That is not hypocracy; that is me knowing what I talk about.

What does playing OFP have to do anything with it?

All I am saying that if we in Sweden had the same criminal problems as the Americans have that I would fully support a gun ban and hand in my guns.

Please read what I said next time before attacking me.

[Warin 0]

Pretty much every post you have made except the last one (and yes, I read most of them... if you commented about being a shooter and gun owner, I missed it and I appologise.) on this thread have been pretty Anti Gun.

Gun control never quite seems to stop gun crime. Even in a nation like mine (Canada), strict gun control hasnt seemed to have any impact on crimes commited with guns.

Instead of knee jerk responses (and this isnt really aimed at you denoir) when horrific things happen, maybe we should look at the actual reasons that the guy went on a rampage... not what he killed people with.

After all, would you call for a ban on ladders because hundreds of people are killed each year in falls?

As for playing OFP, German auhorities are already saying that violent games lead to doing things like this..so if you play OFP, you must be a latent psychopath, right?

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You say that every war <span id='postcolor'>

You are twisting my words around, I said 'just about'.

Just about every important war that the Yanks fought in, Canadians had a role in it too, even the civil war. Roughly 40,000 Canadians went south to join the Union army during that time.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You colonies are just like little children rebelling. <span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm, last time I checked, the 'colonies' were made up of European citizens. I don't think calling the world's last superpower a child is very apropriate now do you?

Lets keep this argument on topic from now on

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All guns (except airguns) are registered already. At least here and I thought it was the same in the US.

<span id='postcolor'>

You thought wrong. The registration is a waste of time. It will not work for its intended goal; reducing crime. Criminals do not register illegal weapons. Registration is just another costly pointless law that picks on law abiding citizens. It has cost the taxpayers more than $500,000,000 in Canada and few of the registration papers have been processed. Even the police here recognize the law as pointless. At least I'm not the only one with common sense!

Registration can be (and has been) used as a tool by governments to track down legal firearms that the government wants to make illegal. It was done in Australia and it will be done here in Canada. Hell, even Hitler did it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some of you gun toting mainacs will be kicking and screaming, but that wont change anything.

<span id='postcolor'>

I don't tote my guns, I keep them locked up. I am not a 'maniac' in any sense of the word. It's those 'gun toting maniacs' you speak so badly of that have kept guns legal in America and Canada, if it weren't for us 'gun toting maniacs' the moronic leftists would have taken them away a long time ago because in their screwed up heads they think that guns are 'evil' and are the source of all crime. I'm surprised you used the word 'some' there are alot more of people like me over here than you think

Denoir, I am quite surprised to see that attitude towards guns, especially since you have done time in the military. Alot of guys in my Regiment are active sports shooters and detest any move to ban or control guns that don't make any sense.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The latest report was from 2000<span id='postcolor'>

The important ones you seem to be mentioning are from 1993, 1994, and 1995.

I give up, but I do not acknowledge defeat!, you are still wrong!

Your laws might work for you over in Sweden and the rest of Europe, but they will not work over here. Everyone knows that different societies have different laws and some will not work in others. I am not saying that your laws are wrong in Sweden, but they are wrong when applied over here.

So back off and get your hands off my guns!

Tyler

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so if you play OFP, you must be a latent psychopath, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Wait a minute!

I play OFP and own guns!, so does Denoir!, so does Wobble!, OH MY GOD!, someone take away our guns and video games before we go and shoot up a school !!!!

Makes perfect sense, right?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ April 28 2002,22:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pretty much every post you have made except the last one (and yes, I read most of them... if you commented about being a shooter and gun owner, I missed it and I appologise.) on this thread have been pretty Anti Gun.<span id='postcolor'>

Gun control never quite seems to stop gun crime. Even in a nation like mine (Canada), strict gun control hasnt seemed to have any impact on crimes commited with guns.There were two parallell threads that discussed the topic, so I don't know what I posted in this and the other.

While I am not for a gun ban in Sweden, I most certainly am for gun control. We have very good strict laws about guns which guarantees that only people who can handle guns have them. It takes you a minimum of six months of active shooting to get a license, and another six months for calibre over .22.

As for if gun control reduces crime you have several examples of that: UK, Russia, Australia and so on. Guns don't create crime but they certainly help the criminals.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for playing OFP, German auhorities are already saying that violent games lead to doing things like this..so if you play OFP, you must be a latent psychopath, right? <span id='postcolor'>

No, I think it is more like - if I am a psycopath and play OFP I might get ideas.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 28 2002,22:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You thought wrong. The registration is a waste of time. It will not work for its intended goal; reducing crime. Criminals do not register illegal weapons. Registration is just another costly pointless law that picks on law abiding citizens. It has cost the taxpayers more than $500,000,000 in Canada and few of the registration papers have been processed. Even the police here recognize the law as pointless. At least I'm not the only one with common sense!<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, dear. Here we go again. Over 79% of the illigal guns in the US are stolen legal guns. If they could be tracked it would help law enforcement.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Registration can be (and has been) used as a tool by governments to track down legal firearms that the government wants to make illegal. It was done in Australia and it will be done here in Canada. Hell, even Hitler did it.<span id='postcolor'>

A paranoid with guns..not a good combination

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some of you gun toting mainacs will be kicking and screaming, but that wont change anything.

<span id='postcolor'>

I don't tote my guns, I keep them locked up. I am not a 'maniac' in any sense of the word. It's those 'gun toting maniacs' you speak so badly of that have kept guns legal in America and Canada, if it weren't for us 'gun toting maniacs' the moronic leftists would have taken them away a long time ago because in their screwed up heads they think that guns are 'evil' and are the source of all crime. I'm surprised you used the word 'some' there are alot more of people like me over here than you think

<span id='postcolor'>

By 'gun toting mainacs' I refer to the people who havn't realised that the revolutionary war and the wild west have gone out of time. Civilian militia has no place in a civilized socitety. If you have a problem with that you should require more of your police force, it's their job to protect you against the criminals.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir, I am quite surprised to see that attitude towards guns, especially since you have done time in the military. Alot of guys in my Regiment are active sports shooters and detest any move to ban or control guns that don't make any sense. <span id='postcolor'>

Just because I have done time in the military, and because I am an active sports shooter, I know how importrant it is not to give guns to people who don't know how to handle them.

That is called being responsible.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I give up ( not listening to what comes after that)

<span id='postcolor'>

Yepp, I won

[pathfinder 0]

Hey denoir ,why take the chance!!! Your guns could be stolen and used in a crime tomorrow ,who knows. Can you live with that possibility? I know I can , I own more military type weapons that most people see in the military. And if a total gun ban did happen over here ,I'd hate to think what I might have to do. Most anti's/rosie's live in a diffrent world than the rest of us, they think if you get rid of guns the world will change for the better. But they forget that there are many and more gruesome ways to kill a human.

And to the people that say guns are only meant to kill, and people that have them are all killers need a reality check.

That would mean COPS and Millitary personnel and any honest gun owner are a bunch a murders.

How about we just kill the criminals that use firearms , instead locking them up for a few years (if that happens at all) and letting them go.

If I were you I would take another look at Wobble's sig again,

thoes guys were true supporters of the anti/gun/freedom movement. And are a big reason I own guns today. (not the king of england)shhheeeeesssh

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pathfinder @ April 28 2002,22:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hey denoir ,why take the chance!!!  Your guns could be stolen and used in a crime tomorrow ,who knows.  Can you live with that possibility?  I know I can , I own more military type weapons that most people see in the military.    And if a total gun ban did happen over here ,I'd hate to think what I might have to do.       Most anti's/rosie's live in a diffrent world than the rest of us, they think if you get rid of guns the world will change for the better.  <span id='postcolor'>

Because we don't have problems with crimials shooting people. My guns are locked up in a big gun safe, so there is little chance of them being stolen.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But they forget that there are many and more gruesome ways to kill a human.

<span id='postcolor'>

70% of all homicides in the use are committed by guns.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

What is so astonishing about the shooting in Erfurt is the surgical precision with which the student select and prosecuted his victims. He didbt shoot around like a maniac, no he went through each and every class, searched on every floor, looked for teachers and even counted them. And he didnt use his pumpgun (not a single shot), only the pistol. The police said that he must have been incredibly trained in pull&shoot cause every teacher was knocked down by a head-shot in the upper forehead.

Maybe it is indadequate to say this, but it looks like good old  German precision.  

[Wobble 1]

70% of all homicides in the use are committed by guns.

90% of all violent crimes in general do not involce a gun.

and most homicedes.. in the pure sense (a person killing another) involve automobiles..

I tried to half steer this thread back onto something worth discussing, be you people keep steering it into the dumb old fucking gun-good/gun-bad debate that is unwinable and futile for both sides..

in some countries strict gun legeslation has provene effective (Japan, various parts of UK) and in others is has miserably failed (Canada, SA, Mexaco, Columbia, Cuba, US)

you cant just lump the entire world into one group and say "this is what needs to be done"  its just not that simple.. period..

and a big part of the reason CRIME esixts had nothing to do with guns, or even any weapon its WEALTH the more wealth a vountry has the more criminals it will draw.. Americans are per-capita the wealthiest people in the world.. and thats a major contributer to our high crime rates compared to other countries)

wealth is a major factor to some.. resources t.. others drugs...

pretty much anything with a finite supply will be fought over.. oil, land, drugs. .etc etc.. and the more of these "assests" a country has the more trype of the criminal that crave that and its perks will come.. guns or not.. hell they will bring their own..

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,22:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I tried to half steer this thread back onto something worth discussing, be you people keep steering it into the dumb old fucking gun-good/gun-bad debate that is unwinable and futile for both sides..<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, and I went along with your idea, but then I had to respond to some personal attacks.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you can just lump the entire world into one group and say "this is what needs to be done" its just not that simple.. period..<span id='postcolor'>

Absolutely. I would like to say that countries with more crime should look over before making guns available to the public. Countries with very little crime have no reason to impose restrictions (except for perhaps crimes of passion).