The aftermath of erfurt

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

But when he said that he wants to be famous, people interpreted it in the wrong way. He wasnt hated at school, he wasnt realy an isolated looser or something. He was funny and made the impression of enjoying life so people thought this guy dreams of some sort of career!

Well you cannot simply say: he was an stupid fucking idiot, he was the devil...... that doesnt solve the problem. Anyway, there isnt one single problem. I think it may be a problem withing our society. I think the media are more of a problem than the guns, but unfortunately are the media full of guns. Have you heard about this film with admired Leonardio Caprio playing a student that freaks out at school and shoots everyone. A dumb film like this can already invert teenager's values. I think our gun-laws are tight enough, but why the hell do we need to allow Pump-guns? for what? I dont know why you get so anoyed. Guns are banned here anyway and you hardly need them to defend yourself.

Fact is that it takes you 1/2 to get this gun, including several tests and disciplinary classes. Still the guy freaked. Where the hell would he have gotten such a dangerous gun in such a short period of time if he wouldnt have had a liecense? He would have freaked anyway, maybe, but 18 is the terrible outcome from a terrible weapon.

Couldnt just owning a gun already make you get the idea: " Now I am gonna shoot them all!" ?

I dont think someone who hasnt a gun would react that way. I havent heard of an incident yet where someone decided to go beserk (commit such a shooting) and then tried to get a gun for it. Isnt is usually the other way around?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Fuck, I just wanted to hit a fly away from my screen but I hit a glass with Coke! Damm I broke that glass and the Coke spilled all over my Enzyklopidiae - ...

Grrroooaoaaaaaaaaaaaaahhedsds

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,00:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">fucking idiot.. like school shootings are a day to day occurance here..<span id='postcolor'>

Well, much more then in Europe:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

"""Germany has tight gun control laws, but about 7.2 million legal firearms are in German homes, registered for use in sport and hunting or kept by collectors, the Interior Ministry said."""

they say this like its some sort of problem...

it would be funny if it wasnt so pathetic how quickly someone can jump on the antigun bandwagon out of fear that they will be handed (possably their fair share) of blaim for something.

the same ole same ole.. he wa crazy, there were warning signs, he had an emotional problem, he told people he was gonna do it.. .. yepo.. clearly this is a gun's fault..

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, he was crazy and that was *why* he killed those people. But.. if he had not had his semi-auto rifle, there is no way he could have killed 17 people + himself. No gun = harder to kill.

For you wobble, since you obviously have a hard time understanding what people have to say, I have one piece of advice:

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I got a peaceful question.

We banned guns anyway. Why dont me make a rule that sport-shooters have to store their guns in the club. With a little Metal dector on entrance and exit. just an idea! But would that change anything?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LordZach @ April 28 2002,00:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but i would think someone in the media would catch on after awhile.<span id='postcolor'>

Somehow I think the media would find it much easier to echo the "videogames and action movies and heavy metal are evil" line than to tell parents "you've fucked up" NOT that I agree with either scapegoat tactic.

[Satchel 0]

Availability of firearms and social difizits or psychological stress/ malfunctions of any kind are an explosive mixture.

If these things meet i think it´s highly likely that a crime involving firearms could result.

If no firearms would be available it´s harder, but not impossible, for someone to realize what he may already imagined and planned in his mind.

A crime could be prevented by details, missing tools, in this case firearms.

Regarding gun owning licenses, even the hardest and most thorough psychological screenings can´t guarantee that someone doesn´t use a gun in a crime, even if he legally owns it. Sometimes it´s extreme psychological conditions caused by circumsstances that turn an seemingly normal and intelligent human into a murderer, almost always the cause for murder within families or suicides.

[Wobble 1]

Availability of firearms and social difizits or psychological stress/ malfunctions of any kind are an explosive mixture.

yes but only targeting one factor (the gun) and ignoring the rest WILL NEVER do anything to solve the problem

furthermore.. what about the MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of responsable gun owners such as myself? what about all the people who are saved by their ownership of a firearm??.. which is 65 times more oftin than the reverse effect..

should EVERYONE have to suffer just because some fucking idiots managed to get their hands on a gun? should millions and millions of people have their right to defend themselves revoked just because a handful of assholes do ignorant shot??

if that were the case cars would have been banned before any of us were born.. and so would knives.. gravity, water.. etc etc..

a gun is a powerful device that can cause great damage if misused... but so is a car, so is a plane (as we have seen) so are LOTS of things.. but whensomebody fucks up with the rest of these things we point at them and say "you moron! what are you thinking"

but when it happense to involve a gun its "wow.. if they didnt have a bun.. .ble bla"

pathetic doublestandard

A gun requires responability, just like a car and lots of other things.. when people get hurt by them its THEIR FAULT.. not the gun's not the gun maker's.. theirs.. and theirs alone (or parents in the case of kids)

[Guest]

8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,038)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">furthermore.. what about the MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of responsable gun owners such as myself?<span id='postcolor'>

I am a responsible gun owner and if we had a problem with guns in Sweden, I would gladly surrender my guns.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what about all the people who are saved by their ownership of a firearm??.. which is 65 times more oftin than the reverse effect..

<span id='postcolor'>

As I said before, I would much rather get robbed then to kill another human being.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">should EVERYONE have to suffer just because some fucking idiots managed to get their hands on a gun? should millions and millions of people have their right to defend themselves revoked just because a handful of assholes do ignorant shot??<span id='postcolor'>

Would you support the legalization of nuclear weapons for self defense? Don't you see that it is a spiral - the criminal will always be better armed then you - he has to.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">a gun is a powerful device that can cause great damage if misused... but so is a car, so is a plane (as we have seen) so are LOTS of things.. but whensomebody fucks up with the rest of these things we point at them and say "you moron! what are you thinking"<span id='postcolor'>

A gun is a weapon with the purpouse of killing people. You can't deny that.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A gun requires responability, just like a car and lots of other things.. when people get hurt by them its THEIR FAULT.. not the gun's not the gun maker's.. theirs.. and theirs alone (or parents in the case of kids)<span id='postcolor'>

Not really when they kill other people with it. Guns are tools for killing people. By removing them you remove a way for people to kill each other.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

aehm...well, may I interupt. The example with a car is inapropriate. A car is an obligatory device nowadays. It purpose is not to kill and its necessaty is unquestionable. If weapons would still be a necessary device to get food (hunting) then I agree that it could be compared to cars. But in that context, no way.

Wobble, if you wouldnt be using your weapon for self defense, but as a sport tool. Would you realy suffer by having to maek a license and store your gun at your local sports-club. I dont think so, but tell me if I am wrong. If weapon owners would have this sense of responsibilty they would accept a tightened gun-law, in sports you call that Fair-play! Especially a fair gun-owner should have this sense of responsibilty to server society!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 28 2002,03:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">aehm...well, may I interupt. The example with a car is inapropriate. A car is an obligatory device nowadays. It purpose is not to kill and its necessaty is unquestionable. If weapons would still be a necessary device to get food (hunting) then I agree that it could be compared to cars. But in that context, no way.

Wobble, if you wouldnt be using your weapon for self defense, but as a sport tool. Would you realy suffer by having to maek a license and store your gun at your local sports-club. I dont think so, but tell me if I am wrong. If weapon owners would have this sense of responsibilty they would accept a tightened gun-law, in sports you call that Fair-play! Especially a fair gun-owner should have this sense of responsibilty to server society!<span id='postcolor'>

You don't understand, he has squirrels and hair spray cans to shoot!!!

But seriously, the fervour with which some American citizens seem to argue for gun possession is scary.

To be quite honest, i couldn't give a flying fuck about what you do with your country. But when you come over the pond and start ranting about our policies and start putting us down because you are the good old us of a, then I am getting a bit peeved off. you have the american way of dealing with things, we have the european way of dealing with things. can we now move on please?

by the way, flaming the other way 'round isn't exactly fair play either.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Wow Ronin, you did your school in germany but you kept your southern temperament! Epharisto for you reply. But I think this forum is a good place to discuss. I am arrogant to judge their system, so they basically got the right to judge ours. I am glad we got the internet! Actually I dont want to be convinced but I want to understand peoples attitudes towards different issues. It is astonishing how much cultures differ. And it is astonishing how "the same" europe is. I mean I lived at least half a year in France, ireland, Spain, germany, switzerland and Thailand (the most fascinating country in the whole world, I worked there for a 5star hotel as a Marketing Manager, so dont get the impression I was a sex-tourist). Lets not forget that in the US people have learned to deal with the gun issue to certain extent. I wonder how the criminality rate would raise here if we would have the same gun laws. I just want to understand...learn

Serious question: how is the virus doing in Greece, we get no more reports over here!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 28 2002,04:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wow Ronin, you did your school in germany but you kept your southern temperament! Epharisto for you reply. But I think this forum is a good place to discuss. I am arrogant to judge their system, so they basically got the right to judge ours. I am glad we got the internet! Actually I dont want to be convinced but I want to understand peoples attitudes towards different issues. It is astonishing how much cultures differ. And it is astonishing how "the same" europe is. I mean I lived at least half a year in France, ireland, Spain, germany, switzerland and Thailand (the most fascinating country in the whole world, I worked there for a 5star hotel as a Marketing Manager, so dont get the impression I was a sex-tourist). Lets not forget that in the US people have learned to deal with the gun issue to certain extent. I wonder how the criminality rate would raise here if we would have the same gun laws. I just want to understand...learn

Serious question: how is the virus doing in Greece, we get no more reports over here!<span id='postcolor'>

Well, discussion is one thing, but the way Wobble replies (and sometimes get replies back, i have to say) sometimes is infuriating. Not one inch is ceded, arguments are fought back at with counter arguments, considering the other side never enters the equation. pretty stupid way to discuss things if u ask me.

if people would stay put with their facts, then it sure would be different, but fanaticism pisses me off sometimes.

As for the virus, last I heard was that the number of new infections per day went down to 2, thats the last report that I read.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I was in international schools all my life (yeah I am great am I , no, just kiddin; I got the same 20th century complexes just like anyone else). I can tell you honestly that the way wobble discusses is not disrespectful, they just have a different manner to deal with discussions. If an american gets pissed off he simpy doesnt reply. As easy as that!

Okay, now you gonna kick my ass but I am deadly serious about that: Thesaloniki is the most beautiful city in greece with the greates girls. Athens sucks compared to Thesaloniki!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 28 2002,04:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was in international schools all my life (yeah I am great am I   , no, just kiddin; I got the same 20th century complexes just like anyone else). I can tell you honestly that the way wobble discusses is not disrespectful, they just have a different manner to deal with discussions. If an american gets pissed off he simpy doesnt reply. As easy as that!

Okay, now you gonna kick my ass but I am deadly serious about that: Thesaloniki is the most beautiful city in greece with the greates girls. Athens sucks compared to Thesaloniki!<span id='postcolor'>

I spent 2 years at an American International School, I even sat in their debating rounds once, and I never saw personal insults and attacks, or deragatory attacks aimed at someone's culture/country.

Thessaloniki is what Athens should be like

Did you know that right after the war Athens only had a population of about 1 million? But because of the civil war, a lot of people left their homes and went to Athens. Then after the war things got settled, and the jobs began to crop up all over Athens, attracting even more people to it.

Now we have like 45% of our population living there, the most centralized government in the EU and it is so crowded that you can't even see the Acropolis properly

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Your marketing sucks!!! Except Crete and Cyprys you dont realy have any good promotion. You only get the cheap german tourists. You are the centre of European culture/philosophy and you still did not succeed to get the right tourists to acknowledge it, it is ashame. Thats gotta change!!! I hope the olympics gonna improve that!! I dont even want to know what greeks think of the germans, they only get the cheap tourists that dont care about culture....

Now you are in the EU, a bit more arrogance (and higher prices) would help!!!!!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 28 2002,04:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your marketing sucks!!! Except Crete and Cyprys you dont realy have any good promotion. You only get the cheap german tourists. You are the centre of European culture/philosophy and you still did not succeed to get the right tourists to acknowledge it, it is ashame. Thats gotta change!!! I hope the olympics gonna improve that!! I dont even want to know what greeks think of the germans, they only get the cheap tourists that dont care about culture....

Now you are in the EU, a bit more arrogance (and higher prices) would help!!!!!<span id='postcolor'>

Cyprus isn't Greek Ask a Cypriot, and he will tell you He will make sure you understand

As for tourists, that is not true, we usually get all kinds of tourists, UK, US, German, French....pretty much everyone comes to Greece I like it, because it is a good opportunity to introduce the tourist's daughters to the Greek way of going out at night's

We have more than enough arrogance, don't need anymore

Higher prices? Since the Euro we've had 5.5% inflation. It is artificial inflation though, just people trying to cash in.

EDIT: By the way, Germans are the best regarded tourists of all. Because they teach you one thing in Germany that they don't teach you anywhere else: respect

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ April 27 2002,23:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LordZach @ April 27 2002,23:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the parents are also to blame.  <span id='postcolor'>

I got an issue with that statement. The guy was 19. How about a plain simple "he was a disturbed, homicidal asshole"? Do we not have those anymore in this wonderful Politically Correct world?

Funny, in the old days shit like this would likely be blamed on satan and pagan religions. Now it's "movies and videogames" and "His parents didn't love him enough". No one likes to look at the fact that some human beings are just fucked.<span id='postcolor'>

no but they always make up shit like "he was a loner" or he was some super obsessive guy" more for scandelous tabloid type reporting rather than anything else

They always tag the victims as completely innocent but unless they just got hit in a crossfire or he was shooting at anyone but if the victims did manage o piss someone off that much,taking into account that the agressor wasnt completely bannanas, then they were`nt wholey innocent NOT that im condoning such actions taken in this situation but looking at it from a different perspective.Im sure if better systems were in place then it would curb stuff like this maybe via legal system for which if u were bullied u would have better advice on starting legal procedings against the bully rather than extreme measure such as blowing them away but now im starting to ramble a bit...

Final point is that the medias reporting of this will not by fully accurate so dont base ur opinions entirely on what u read

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ April 28 2002,04:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 28 2002,04:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your marketing sucks!!! Except Crete and Cyprys you dont realy have any good promotion. You only get the cheap german tourists. You are the centre of European culture/philosophy and you still did not succeed to get the right tourists to acknowledge it, it is ashame. Thats gotta change!!! I hope the olympics gonna improve that!! I dont even want to know what greeks think of the germans, they only get the cheap tourists that dont care about culture....

Now you are in the EU, a bit more arrogance (and higher prices) would help!!!!!<span id='postcolor'>

Cyprus isn't Greek Ask a Cypriot, and he will tell you He will make sure you understand

As for tourists, that is not true, we usually get all kinds of tourists, UK, US, German, French....pretty much everyone comes to Greece I like it, because it is a good opportunity to introduce the tourist's daughters to the Greek way of going out at night's

We have more than enough arrogance, don't need anymore

Higher prices? Since the Euro we've had 5.5% inflation. It is artificial inflation though, just people trying to cash in.

EDIT: By the way, Germans are the best regarded tourists of all. Because they teach you one thing in Germany that they don't teach you anywhere else: respect <span id='postcolor'>

Bullshit, when I went to Greece with my friends I was willing to re-construct prison-camps for all those germans I met there! I hate the germans that went there, they thought that money rules the world. i didnt notice any kind of respect! I hope you can teach them that not all germans are alike. If i go to greece I want to show respect. Especially in the south where water is short, tourists have to understand that taking a shower for 30 minutes isnt appropriate!!!!

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am a responsible gun owner and if we had a problem with guns in Sweden, I would gladly surrender my guns.<span id='postcolor'>

How would that solve the problem in any way at all?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As I said before, I would much rather get robbed then to kill another human being.<span id='postcolor'>

I would rather shoot someone than die.

No one said you had to kill him. If you showed a gun to an unarmed criminal, do you think he is going to stick around? If he was armed, at least I could defend myself.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Would you support the legalization of nuclear weapons for self defense? Don't you see that it is a spiral - the criminal will always be better armed then you - he has to.

<span id='postcolor'>

More speculation and theory and utter nonsense. Nucler weapons?, please be realistic.

Better armed? OK, by your logic, if I had a pistol, a criminal would then carry a shotgun to be better armed, right? Well, where would he conceal the shotgun? In his pocket? Be realistic, it's mostly handguns that are used for robberies.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A gun is a weapon with the purpouse of killing people. You can't deny that.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but you are looking at it from the leftist gun grabber's point of view. Guns also keep people alive. WAY more guns are used for sporting purposes than for actually killing someone. Eliminate illegal guns and criminals, the problem will be solved. Taking guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens is NOT an effective way of dealing with a criminal problem.

You might be willing to turn in your guns to 'help' a 'problem', but ask that to the hundreds of millions of people in the U.S. who own them, I doubt you will get the same response, a 'go f*ck yourself' answer is more likely.

Tyler

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ April 28 2002,05:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Eliminate illegal guns and criminals, the problem will be solved.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, who is being unrealistic now?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Taking guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens is NOT an effective way of dealing with a criminal problem.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes it is, look at Great Britain. It has already been discussed.

As for the other questions see the other thread.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Guns also keep people alive<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, that is a very healthy point of view. Law of the jungle. Kill before you get killed. Very civilized.

[Wobble 1]

I am a responsible gun owner and if we had a problem with guns in Sweden, I would gladly surrender my guns.

so.. just because you are a good little sheep, we all should be? furthermore.. do you think the criminals would do the same? no

As I said before, I would much rather get robbed then to kill another human being.

would you raterh be killed by a robber, burgler, rapist... or kill  a robber, burgler or rapist?

Would you support the legalization of nuclear weapons for self defense?

thats just totally stupid

A gun is a weapon with the purpouse of killing people. You can't deny that.

it can be.. so can a car, A gun can be used for recreation.. shooting clubs, hunting, just plane shooting up cans for fun(not cans of mace ).. etc etc.. and thats what 90% of all guns sold are for.. the rest are sold for self defence.. the guns that end up killing people are usually either an accident.. or a criminal in which case the gun was illegally had anyway..

Not really when they kill other people with it. Guns are tools for killing people.

like I said, most guns are sold for recreational use or hunting.. and most killings are commited with NON regestered (I.E. illegal) guns

By removing them you remove a way for people to kill each other.

excellent.. only 8,455,765,234,447,235 ways to go!

people can be killed by losts of things, through malice or ignorance.  but punishing the masses for the actions of .01% is RETARDED.

If weapon owners would have this sense of responsibilty they would accept a tightened gun-law

the problem is.. it can only get so "tight" before they are banned al together...  baby steps.. today we ban this.. tommorrow a little more.. and the next thing you know there are 3 men in suits with a police officer demanding you hand over your regestered guns..

But seriously, the fervour with which some American citizens seem to argue for gun possession is scary

whats scary is the blatent lack of commin sense and denseness that anti-gun lobbiest exhibit.. believeing every household with a gun should have their children removed to goverment custody for safty reasons,  stupid twisted stats like the ole "13 children die everyday from guns"  where as children are up to 24 year olds..

that is scary..

But when you come over the pond and start ranting about our policies and start putting us down because you are the good old us of a, then I am getting a bit peeved off

WHOLLY FUCKING HELL!!!!  interesting feeling isnt it!! kinda sucks when people "over the pond" criticize and pick apart every little thing your country does ISNT IT.. ISNT IT REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING!!!!!!?

you have the american way of dealing with things, we have the european way of dealing with things. can we now move on please?

JESUS H CHRIST!! IMAGINE THIS!  different ways of dealing with things.. wow!!! what an interresting concept.. maby a good idea afterall to STUF! about other countries policies and habits  WHOLLY SHIT!

if people would stay put with their facts, then it sure would be different

I post an entire book of facts on here about this.,.  and the replies I get are "would you support nuclear weapons for self defence!" and other mindless "what if" bullshit...

yea, it would be different.

I find it posativley MIND BLOWING that now people are bitching because big bad wobble is commenting on another countries policy,,

WELCOME TO FUCKING AMERICA!  WHERE EVERY FUCKING DAY i READ THROUGH A MOUND OF RANTING, ACCUSING HATEFUL SHIT FROM "OVER THE POND" ABOUT THE US..  

now I talke a poke at germany's attempt at dealing with this and suddenly I am crossing some sort of line?  fucking horseshit..

lots of people bash and chastize the US for every fucking little thing it does, every accident every tragedy.. EVERYTHING..

well now the shoe is on the other foot so kiss my ass.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Well put.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,05:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not really when they kill other people with it. Guns are tools for killing people.

like I said, most guns are sold for recreational use or hunting.. and most killings are commited with NON regestered (I.E. illegal) guns<span id='postcolor'>

What you call illegal guns are stolen legal guns. That is the most stupid argument used all the time. 70% of all illigal guns are former legal guns from the US:

Reference:

Bureau of Justice Statistics: Guns Used in Crime

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

By removing them you remove a way for people to kill each other.

excellent.. only 8,455,765,234,447,235 ways to go!<span id='postcolor'>

70% of the 24,526 murders in 1993 were committed with firearms.

Reference:

Bureau of Justice Statistics: Guns Used in Crime

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">people can be killed by losts of things, through malice or ignorance. but punishing the masses for the actions of .01% is RETARDED.<span id='postcolor'>

How many are you willing to sacrefice for your right to bear arms? One person? One hundred? One million?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I post an entire book of facts on here about this.,. and the replies I get are "would you support nuclear weapons for self defence!" and other mindless "what if" bullshit...<span id='postcolor'>

I was just applying your grand logic to a bigger scale. Just to point out how illogical your arguments are when put in perspective.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">now I talke a poke at germany's attempt at dealing with this and suddenly I am crossing some sort of line? fucking horseshit..

lots of people bash and chastize the US for every fucking little thing it does, every accident every tragedy.. EVERYTHING..

well now the shoe is on the other foot so kiss my ass.<span id='postcolor'>

This will lead to some serious changes in Germanys gun policy. I cannot predict how much, but believe me, it will be a significant change. They will learn from the mistake and get stricter laws.

[Guest]

A good official statistics reference of guns and crime is this:

Firearms and Crime Statistics

Now I'm off to bed. I have totally screwed up my day rythm

And one final tip (again) to all you gun lovers:

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is the most stupid argument used all the time. <span id='postcolor'>

That's your opinion. You are blaming the gun and not the criminal who uses it illegaly.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">70% of the 24,526 murders in 1993 were committed with firearms.<span id='postcolor'>

You are using dated statistics.

So, 17,168.2 people in the U.S. were killed by a firearm in 1993.

Thats about 6.86 people per 100,000. So on average, in a town of 100,000 about 0.0000686% of people would be killed by a firearm.

So in a nation of 249,975,000 people, 0.0000686% of them were murdered by a firearm. How many of those cases were criminals killing criminals?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many are you willing to sacrefice for your right to bear arms? <span id='postcolor'>

LOL, thats quite a point you make.

Hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers died to preserve that right and all the others in the U.S. constitution, like the right to free speech.

Tyler