The aftermath of erfurt

[Wobble 1]

In an ongoing DOJ-funded study on juvenile delinquency in Rochester, New York, 7th- and 8th-grade adolescents who owned one or more legal guns - i.e. obtained a gun from a parent - were tracked for 4-1/2 years. By the time they reached 11th- and 12th-grade respectively, not one had committed a firearm-related crime.

Children given guns, and provided the education to handle them responsibly and with respect for what they are capable of, are the most non-violent of all groups studied--and are less violent than teenagers who do not own guns, according to the Rochester data

again.. responsable gun owners pose no threat.. its always the idiots.. (.01%).. I think its less a gun issue than a responsability issue.. responsable people take care of shit.. irresponsable people dont.. same goes for cars, knives.. everything..

Joel Myrick is a hero.  In 1997 this Mississippi high school principal  prevented a psychotic teenager from killing students at Pearl Junior High,  potentially saving numerous lives and immeasurable grief.

But according to Federal law, Principal Joel Myrick is a criminal.

You see, in order to stop the deranged teen (who had opened fire at a high school) from leaving the high school  to continue his killing spree at the junior high, Myrick retrieved a  handgun from his truck, loaded it, and held it on the youth until  authorities could arrive.  "I've always kept a gun in the truck just in  case something like this ever happened," Myrick said.

Myrick clearly saved  lives. He also clearly violated the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act (18 US Code sect. 922(q)(1)(A)), which specifies,  "It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm... at a place that the individual knows... is a school zone."

Of course, the Federal law doesn't seem to have held much sway over  criminals.  Perhaps Luke Woodham, the murderer in Mississippi, and Eric  Harris and Dylan Klebold, the Columbine murderers, simply forgot to review  the relevant Federal statutes before they went on their killing sprees.

As Joel Myrick proved, responsible armed adults on school property can save lives.  If Luke Woodham had expected to face several armed adults, he may never have even  tried to attack the high school in the first place.

good points, but a tad speculative.. I dont encourage gun toting teachers.. but better armed security is a good idea IMO

This is the 1998 "suspicious incident" report prepared by sheriff's investigators after Eric Harris reportedly threatened the life of a Columbine High School classmate and posted warnings on the Internet that he was detonating pipe bombs and wanted to commit mass murder. The report, loaded with chilling details, had been forwarded to the sheriff's deputy stationed inside the Littleton, Colorado high school, though apparently no further investigation was done. The document was released by the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office after the Denver Rocky Mountain News disclosed details of the report in its April 30 edition

so they totally and utterly ignored EXACT AND COMPLETE DETAILS and ALL warnings that the attack was going to take place.. that they were going to go in and do exactly what they did..  so whos fault is it this happened?  guns of course!!

again.. total disregard for the motives, the warnings, the people who did it.. EVERYTHING.. just blame the weapon... bah!

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Civilian militia has no place in a civilized socitety. If you have a problem with that you should require more of your police force, it's their job to protect you against the criminals.

<span id='postcolor'>

Tell that to Switzerland. They have a VERY low incedence of gun crime yet they have a strong 'civilian' militia.

I wont disagree with you on making rather strict regulations for the ownership of firearms. I for instance would have to redo a great deal of gun safetly courses to buy a gun in Canada at the moment, because it's been so long since I had a Firearms Aquisition Certificate. And if I chose to do that, I wont balk att taking the required courses and training.

I think what we're all arguing about is the US.

And...well..that's a situation that defies logic. The American psyche seems to be fixated on guns. From the Old West to the Roaring 20's to WW II to Vietnam to Miami Vice to today, the gun has a powerful place in the collective unconcious of American culture. It's reflected in almost every form of media that comes out of the US. So trying to say 'if sweden had the US's gun problem' doesnt really make a lot of sense, does it?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ April 28 2002,23:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Civilian militia has no place in a civilized socitety. If you have a problem with that you should require more of your police force, it's their job to protect you against the criminals.

<span id='postcolor'>

Tell that to Switzerland.  They have a VERY low incedence of gun crime yet they have a strong 'civilian' militia.<span id='postcolor'>

Switzerland hasn't got a civilian militia at all. Their military is the same as the national guard, and they keep the guns at home. Those guns are only allowed to be used in the event of war, not for stopping criminals. That is what the police does.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I wont disagree with you on making rather strict regulations for the ownership of firearms. I for instance would have to redo a great deal of gun safetly courses to buy a gun in Canada at the moment, because it's been so long since I had a Firearms Aquisition Certificate. And if I chose to do that, I wont balk att taking the required courses and training.

I think what we're all arguing about is the US.

And...well..that's a situation that defies logic. The American psyche seems to be fixated on guns. From the Old West to the Roaring 20's to WW II to Vietnam to Miami Vice to today, the gun has a powerful place in the collective unconcious of American culture. It's reflected in almost every form of media that comes out of the US. So trying to say 'if sweden had the US's gun problem' doesnt really make a lot of sense, does it?<span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps you are right about that.

[Wobble 1]

Civilian militia has no place in a civilized socitety. If you have a problem with that you should require more of your police force, it's their job to protect you against the criminals.

FACT: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals.

444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,22:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so they totally and utterly ignored EXACT AND COMPLETE DETAILS and ALL warnings that the attack was going to take place.. that they were going to go in and do exactly what they did..  so whos fault is it this happened?  guns of course!!

again.. total disregard for the motives, the warnings, the people who did it.. EVERYTHING.. just blame the weapon...  bah!<span id='postcolor'>

Don't you agree that it is a pretty fucked situation when a teacher has to pull a gun on a student to prevent him killing other students?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Switzerland hasn't got a civilian militia at all.<span id='postcolor'>

Now you're splitting hairs! (as am I, I suppose)

Their military is a militia. The members are in theory part of a military organization, but they are in essence civilians for the most part. That's why it's a militia versus a national guard.

And we are in total agreement that the need to pull a gun to stop a student is a bad bad thing!

In the same post, Wobble pointed out tha major problem in all of these school shootings...

Even when there are warning signs, they ften go unheeded. The heads only get pulled out of the sand when it's too late. I guess that goes to looking at the reasons behind this sort of thing, and working on assuring the sitaution never degenerates to this point again.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,22:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Americans are per-capita the wealthiest people in the world.. and thats a major contributer to our high crime rates compared to other countries)<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, dear! That reminds me that you watch to many films where you see Norwegians living in Iglos and spanish riding to town on a horse, french being painters, ....

Unfortunately that is very hard to estimate if you are the richest or not. For this you must include, how long you have to work, what remains after taxes, what you can buy with it, and what you get offered for free. (and how many people are actually having all that damm money) This is why an international comparison (e.g. GNP) always fails. If you want to get a serious overview of how to find out:

have a look here (Site by UPS = big international bank)

You will see that small cities like little Zürich have no problem to compete with such giants such as Abu Dhabi and New York in terms of richness!

To buy a hamburger you need to work in minutes

37 in Abu Dhabi

45 in Bangkok

9 in Hong Kong / tokyo

146 in Jakarta (fucking expensive)

13 in Chicago

12 New York

15 Zuerich

16 Frankfurt

[Wobble 1]

Don't you agree that it is a pretty fucked situation when a teacher has to pull a gun on a student to prevent him killing other students?

yes.. but it has nothing to do with gun legeslation..

and I find it more fucked up that schools ANY schools are totally and utterly defencless in that sense..

kids having guns is already illegal, taking them to school is DEFINATLEY illegal.. so the legality and law is more or less moot.. the PENALTIES should be increased and active preventin shuold be a goal.. I.E. a means of some sort to defend the school, armed security.. etc etc

I dont think teachers should carry guns at achool, but I do thing an ARMED preasence of some sort would be nice.. insted of the current "lets jsut hope nothing happens" stance.

as for the teacher better him hold the student at gunpoint then let him go apeshit..

[Wobble 1]

To buy a hamburger you need to work in minutes

37 in Abu Dhabi

45 in Bangkok

9 in Hong Kong / tokyo

146 in Jakarta (fucking expensive)

13 in Chicago

12 New York

15 Zuerich

16 Frankfurt

thats dumb.. work where?

my stat is based on FTC stats and include the average household income level, average hours worked to achive a retirement sum capable of sustaining one in their laters years.. the average amount of vacation time.. and numerous factors...

basically its about household wealth accumlated by age 60.. your house, your car(s) other assets..

remember the US has some awsome retiremnt plans.. you can open a 401 k type setup where for every dollar you put in your company puts in 50cents.. or 25.. whatver.. so you can save 1000 and it becomes 1500/1250.. etc etc.. investing in IRA.. etc etc.

believe it or not its alot more complex than buying a handburger  

but the bottom line turns out that the average american household is has the most accumulated wealth.. cars.. couse.. whatever.. the best shit to STEAL, or rob or kill for.. (crime stats)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Damm, you are so horny about guns over there, that you have a hard time giving them out of your hands. And the funny thing is that you keep them even though they dont serve any purpose anymore. Is shooting hair-spray cans so important? Use a bow and an arrow!

For the purpose of self-defense a gun loaded with tear-gas could do it too. But you want the semi-automatic riffle to feel secure. The whole discussion sounds as if you would have to give up 30% of your life-quality (someone here even compared it to cars )! As if someone discusses whether you should give up electricity.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 29 2002,01:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,22:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Americans are per-capita the wealthiest people in the world.. and thats a major contributer to our high crime rates compared to other countries)<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, dear! That reminds me that you watch to many films where you see Norwegians living in Iglos and spanish riding to town on a horse, french being painters, ....

Unfortunately that is very hard to estimate if you are the richest or not. For this you must include, how long you have to work, what remains after taxes, what you can buy with it, and what you get offered for free. (and how many people are actually having all that damm money) This is why an international comparison (e.g. GNP) always fails. If you want to get a serious overview of how to find out:

have a look here (Site by UPS = big international bank)

You will see that small cities like little Zürich have no problem to compete with such giants such as Abu Dhabi and New York in terms of richness!

To buy a hamburger you need to work in minutes

37 in Abu Dhabi

45 in Bangkok

9 in Hong Kong / tokyo

146 in Jakarta (fucking expensive)

13 in Chicago

12 New York

15 Zuerich

16 Frankfurt

<span id='postcolor'>

I can buy a hamburger for 50 cents on wednesday and tuesday,damn i'm rich.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

might be, but you have to include that you pay taxes, and for paying taxes you get something back. E.g here school system, universities are all for free (you even get pocket money if you want)! How much you got to pay for Infrastructure, how much for medical care, for lawyers....and there even stupid communist Berlin (I hate East Germany) is ahead of Zürich (and NY )

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Hey foxer, I bought one today! I hope it will last till Wednesday, (then maybe I can afford some chicken wings too)

[Wobble 1]

Is shooting hair-spray cans so important?

important? no.. fun YES

and ill tell you this.. you havnt experenced TRUE stress relief untill you have spend a nice sunny afternoon... blowing up old toilets with a shotgun.. pure enjoyment

For the purpose of self-defense a gun loaded with tear-gas could do it too

could do what? piss someone off? weve all seen how effetive tear gas is on riots in the middle east LOL..

would be just enough to really get yer ass kicked (or worse)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 29 2002,01:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is shooting hair-spray cans so important?

important? no.. fun YES

and ill tell you this.. you havnt experenced TRUE stress relief untill you have spend a nice sunny afternoon... blowing up old toilets with a shotgun.. pure enjoyment  

For the purpose of self-defense a gun loaded with tear-gas could do it too

could do what? piss someone off? weve all seen how effetive tear gas is on riots in the middle east LOL..

would be just enough to really get yer ass kicked (or worse)<span id='postcolor'>

what about a gun that shoot rubber bullets (they knock you out badly)

(shooting toilets) where I live we destroy porcelane the day we marry (brings luck),

but I have never seen a grandma shooting a toilet to wish her son god luck for his marriage!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 28 2002,22:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Americans are per-capita the wealthiest people in the world.. and thats a major contributer to our high crime rates compared to other countries)<span id='postcolor'>

What are you insane? It has nothing to do with wealth, it has to do with social differences. You have a much larger gap between poor and rich people then in any European country.

Switzerland has a higher GNP/capita and much less crime.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ April 29 2002,01:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Their military is a militia.  The members are in theory part of a military organization, but they are in essence civilians for the most part.  That's why it's a militia versus a national guard.<span id='postcolor'>

No, there is a big difference between a militia and a national guard. It is the same difference as between the police and the military. The Swiss military's weapons are not used to stop crime, they are there in case of a war.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even when there are warning signs, they ften go unheeded. The heads only get pulled out of the sand when it's too late. I guess that goes to looking at the reasons behind this sort of thing, and working on assuring the sitaution never degenerates to this point again.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, and giving lunatics access to guns cant be all that fine and dandy.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 29 2002,01:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and I find it more fucked up that schools ANY schools are totally and utterly defencless in that sense..<span id='postcolor'>

Now, that makes sense. Arm the schools. Eh?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont think teachers should carry guns at achool, but I do thing an ARMED preasence of some sort would be nice.. insted of the current "lets jsut hope nothing happens" stance.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't you see that a good solutions is to REDUCE, I'll say that again just in case you missed it REDUCE guns in schools. That means that you make sure that the kids can't get guns to bring them to school, and *not* bringing in guns so that you can shoot armed kids. It is a spiral of violence and makes no sense.

[Wobble 1]

Yes, and giving lunatics access to guns cant be all that fine and dandy.

and neither is taking them away from law abiding citizens who havent done anything wrong, and deserve to be able to protect themselves should something come up..

and nobody "gives" them anything... "lunatics" as you call them would never be able to legally get a firearm.. only illegally.. so they are already circumventing the law.. so changing it wouldent help..

Now, that makes sense. Arm the schools. Eh?

yes.. why not?, some hospitals have armed security.. so do banks, subways.. large office buildings of all kinds.. the malls... almost everywhere EXCEPT schools have some formed of armed police/security..

is a building full of money.. or full of sick people.. worth protecting.. but a building full of children not? why? what would be wrong with schools having a few armed security officers? I see no problem with it.. it may seem like overkill.. but so does anything else untill the shit hits the fan..

you act like there is some taboo against defending a school.. there is no logic behind leaving a school defencless

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 29 2002,02<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and nobody "gives" them anything... "lunatics" as you call them would never be able to legally get a firearm.. only illegally.. so they are already circumventing the law.. so changing it wouldent help..<span id='postcolor'>

We seem to go around in circles here. Illigal guns in the US are for the most part (79%) former legal guns that have been stolen. It is a simple fact that the more guns you have in the country the easier it is obtaining on legaly or illegaly.

Besides, the most of the guns in school shootings were legal, since the kids take their parents gun.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yes.. why not?, some hospitals have armed security.. so do banks, subways.. large office buildings of all kinds.. the malls... almost everywhere EXCEPT schools have some formed of armed police/security..

<span id='postcolor'>

Not here. None of the ones you mentioned. Our banks, subways, and office buildings do not have armed guards. As a matter of fact we have no armed guards at all, only the police are allowed to carry guns for self defense and crime prevention.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you act like there is some taboo against defending a school.. there is no logic behind leaving a school defencless <span id='postcolor'>

There is no logic why a school should have to defend itself. You are trying to cure the symptom instead of the desiese.

[Wobble 1]

Don't you see that a good solutions is to REDUCE, I'll say that again just in case you missed it REDUCE guns in schools. That means that you make sure that the kids can't get guns to bring them to school, and *not* bringing in guns so that you can shoot armed kids. It is a spiral of violence and makes no sense.

I think idiots would be less likley to try shit at a school if they knew they would meet IMMEDIAT armed response.. insted ofhaveing a good 15 min of free reign to condict whatever they want..

also "REDUCE" guns? how? take them from everyone.. the automatic AK-47 is now the #1 long weapon of choice by gangs. yet it is completely and utterly illegal in the US.. it has been REDUCED.. and its more popular than ever before..

sure a law abiding citize such as me cant get one.. but someone with the mantality to murder people and who has no fear of the law can get one no problems..

[Guest]

8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 29 2002,028)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">also "REDUCE" guns? how? take them from everyone.. the automatic AK-47 is now the #1 long weapon of choice by gangs. yet it is completely and utterly illegal in the US.. it has been REDUCED.. and its more popular than ever before..<span id='postcolor'>

Automatic rifles are only used in about 1% of crimes where firearms are used. Handguns are the most commonly used.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think idiots would be less likley to try shit at a school if they knew they would meet IMMEDIAT armed response.. insted ofhaveing a good 15 min of free reign to condict whatever they want..<span id='postcolor'>

No, since the ones committing the school shootings were not not sane.

[Wobble 1]

We seem to go around in circles here. Illigal guns in the US are for the most part (79%) former legal guns that have been stolen. It is a simple fact that the more guns you have in the country the easier it is obtaining on legaly or illegaly.

Besides, the most of the guns in school shootings were legal, since the kids take their parents gun.

so.. how do you "reduce" the numbers of guns? ban them? It will NEVER EVER happen.. not in the US thats for sure, our history going way back is full of firearms, from the colonies, to the setteling of the west.. etc etc.. its so ingraned in us that nobody will ever manage to take our guns away.. not a chance in hell..  so sonce that option is literall and figurativley impossable.. why not be realistic... stricter penalties, more stringen background checks..

oh, something else I would like to see..  owners of gund haveing to go to get a mental evaluation say.. once a year.. or something... sounds kinda harsh but a few hourse a year wouldent bother me.. and yes let the goverment pay for it..

Besides, the most of the guns in school shootings were legal, since the kids take their parents gun

kid stole parents gun=illegal

parents were carless, didnt lock the guns up.. their fault, its not a law.. its people being irresponsable..

Not here. None of the ones you mentioned. Our banks, subways, and office buildings do not have armed guards. As a matter of fact we have no armed guards at all, only the police are allowed to carry guns for self defense and crime prevention.

im talking about the US as an example..

your banks have no security at all?  thats strange  (well to me)

[Wobble 1]

No, since the ones committing the school shootings were not not sane

not sane?

wow, nutty people.. ahh yes.. crazy kids going on a killing spree maby somebody should address this and remove the cause insted of bitching about the effect..

Automatic rifles are only used in about 1% of crimes where firearms are used. Handguns are the most commonly used.

I said gangs.. gangs dont usually dont go reporting attacks from other gangs to the cops.. but when the police bust them the #1 rifle found is the AK..

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 29 2002,02:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so.. how do you "reduce" the numbers of guns? ban them? It will NEVER EVER happen.. not in the US thats for sure, our history going way back is full of firearms, from the colonies, to the setteling of the west.. etc etc.. its so ingraned in us that nobody will ever manage to take our guns away.. not a chance in hell..  so sonce that option is literall and figurativley impossable.. why not be realistic... stricter penalties, more stringen background checks..<span id='postcolor'>

Not necessarily a complete ban. Make it just much harder to people to get a license. Require of them that they have to be active members of a shooting club for some amount of time. Have requirements on shooting abilities and firearms knowledge. Make it a law that guns must be locked up in gun safes. Mental evaluation, as you suggest would be excellent too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

parents were carless, didnt lock the guns up.. their fault, its not a law.. its people being irresponsable..

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, my point. Irresponsible people should not have guns.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

your banks have no security at all?  thats strange  (well to me)<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, we have bank robberies perhaps a couple times of year max (in the entire country), and they are almost always caught. No need to shed blood. We think that life is more importrant then money. (Wobble is getting a heart attack now)