Toxic legacy of US assault on Fallujah 'worse than Hiroshima'

[gabe_ruckus 5]

Tungsten Carbide doesn't have the same incendiary effect as a DU sabot when it hits an armored target, and TC dust still causes fibrosis. It's still lighter, too, so it's not as effective a penetrating core in the calibers of weapons the US uses DU in.

On that Fibrosis, if enough TC was put into an Iraqi city, I'm sure there'd be people complaining about the negative health effects of that, too. Most metals have negative health effects when you crush them up and inhale them, but studies have shown that the vast majority of inhaled DU isn't absorbed into the bloodstream, and the majority of that is excreted through the kidneys as urine. You'd have to hold DU on your skin for literally weeks to get any reaction at all.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Asbestos was the first substance that sprang to mind. How long does asbestosis take to produce symptoms?

Depends on the exposure, but an avarage western construction worker could take decades before showing anything. (And thanks to regulations nowadays it is very rare)

[gabe_ruckus 5]

Also was depleted Uranium really necessary in Iraq's urban combat? Did the Iraqi army and/or insurgency really pose threats requiring depleted Uranium rounds to neutralise them?

Iraq fielded T-72 tanks and BMP infantry carriers, so yeah, I'd rather have a round that works. The US military's been created to counter cold-war style threats, and still has to be ready to take part in a high-intensity conflict against heavily armed and armored enemies.

[HyperU2 11]

Almost doesn't count bucko when compared to Bush. Clinton came closer to starting a war with Serbia and North Korea than he did Iraq..

I don't recall him bombing NK on a nearly weekly basis. Clinton was about 8 minutes away from putting troops on the ground in Iraq.

I doubt the fire protection standards in Fallujah ever lead to them using asbestos.

[TangoRomeo 10]

In construction, asbestos is primarily used as an insulation material.

[Big Mac 19]

I don't recall him bombing NK on a nearly weekly basis. Clinton was about 8 minutes away from putting troops on the ground in Iraq.

I doubt the fire protection standards in Fallujah ever lead to them using asbestos.

He was about 8 hours from bombing NK in 94. Either way both instances are not the same as what Bush did so stop trying to compare them..

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

US forces later admitted that they had employed white phosphorus as well as other munitions.

I find that amusing. WP is not a WMD. It's not even that bad compared to some of the weapons we use. Yes, it burns like a fiery hell, but that's on the idiots who were firing at our guys. WP is used for marking targets most of the time IIRC. It produces a nice big white cloud of smoke that the CAS supporting the ground units can zero in on.

[HyperU2 11]

He was about 8 hours from bombing NK in 94. Either way both instances are not the same as what Bush did so stop trying to compare them..

I'll keep doing whatever I want.

He bombed North Korea with large aid packages.

Edited July 27, 2010 by HyperU2

[Big Mac 19]

So you're going to troll here as well instead of being constructive? If that's so please find somewhere else to be a child.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Big Mac

[Big Dawg KS 6]

DU? I thought the controversy was the supposed use of WP by artillery crews. Either way, it's all a buncha BS. We've been using DU and WP for years in and nobody has ever given a shit until now...

[Big Mac 19]

Have you ever heard of Gulf War syndrome?

[walker 0]

Hi all

1st, Cockburn? LOL

2nd, and seriously, has this guy been to Iraq? This place is covered with garbage, the air's full of oil smoke, and I see kids playing around open sewers all the time. Some of the "doctors" in this country don't even know how to write to make out prescriptions, and give out valium for headaches, so I'm sorry if I don't take the word of an Iraqi doctor at face value.

The livestock here graze in the city, in the garbage and open sewers, and then get slaughtered and fed to families. If anything's to blame for higher incidence of cancers, it's extremely poor sanitation. Another theory is that Saddam's government suppressed actual facts on birth defects and infant mortality to make Iraq look better, and so the current numbers seem like an increased rate.

As to question of local environmental factors, the study compares Falujha with areas with exactly the same environment yet has 12 Fold increase in childhood cancers over those in the rest Iraq.

Consequently we then have to consider that something other than the common environment factors is at play in Falujha, so Gabe_Ruckus suggestion can be safely excluded.

Possibly Phosphorus, a lot of it was used in "Shake and Bake" artillery stonks as we all remember from the videos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus#Precautions

But my bet would be on DU as the culprit.

People may wish to peruse our very own Depleted Urainum thread as it deals with much of the issues and it will ensure we are all up to speed on the arguments before we continue and rehash them in the light of new information.

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 27, 2010 by walker

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

Of course it has to be a sanitarian or other "3rd world" problem. In an other forum some people even were so bold to state that these birthdefects are caused by incest because the Iraqis all merry their cousins.

I really don't know what the people need to comprehend what happend.

[gabe_ruckus 5]

I don't know what you people don't get about Iraq. Walker, you write well, but I'm out here in Iraq right now, and I see kids playing in open sewers, and I breath the oil smoke from their refineries that are located in the same places they live. People don't have any concept of what causes cancer here, they do what they want without any idea of the health risks. There's people smoking indoors, teens smoking, they drive up the wrong side of the highway in a sandstorm because they want to go 15 mph faster than our convoys! I've seen cars full of families swerving to avoid head on collisions driving the wrong way on a 4 lane highway. These people live very unhealthy lives in a very unhealthy environment, and unless you remove them from that, you can't conclusively say that illnesses in any particular population here are caused by anything. This is the 3rd world, and it sucks.

[max power 21]

I don't know what you people don't get about Iraq. Walker, you write well, but I'm out here in Iraq right now, and I see kids playing in open sewers, and I breath the oil smoke from their refineries that are located in the same places they live. People don't have any concept of what causes cancer here, they do what they want without any idea of the health risks. There's people smoking indoors, teens smoking, they drive up the wrong side of the highway in a sandstorm because they want to go 15 mph faster than our convoys! I've seen cars full of families swerving to avoid head on collisions driving the wrong way on a 4 lane highway. These people live very unhealthy lives in a very unhealthy environment, and unless you remove them from that, you can't conclusively say that illnesses in any particular population here are caused by anything. This is the 3rd world, and it sucks.

That's all well and good, but we're talking about an alleged increase in cancer and birth defects since 2004. If that is true, something must have changed since the US Marines invaded Falluja. Whether it be the release of uranium oxide or other mutagenic or toxic aerosols, something in the water, poisonous dust from burnt buildings, the inability to eliminate or properly store some kind of contaminant due to a smashed infrastructure, or what have you- or something that doesn't have anything to do with the marines at all, maybe.

The statistics are allegedly pointing at a sharp, significant incline in biological problems since 2004, above the usual unsafe behaviour.

[HyperU2 11]

Maybe they've just gotten better cancer testing since 2004.

[Daniel 0]

I wouldn't dismiss potential impact from DU so easily. I'm sure people scoffed at the idea of Agent Orange causing widespread birth defects in Vietnam. I personally know people whose colleagues died decades after having snowball fights with asbestos, that's how harmless they thought it was.

Depleted Uranium rounds were specifically designed for defeating Cold War armour threats in desperate "end of the world" battle, as were many other Cold War weapons. So just because our weapons make use of DU doesn't mean it's going to be suitable for use in populated areas.

[walker 0]

Hi HyperU2

The comparison is against other places in Iraq not against historical data.

The rise in childhood cancers is 12 times what the rest of Iraq has experienced, there by excluding time factors or improvements in cancer detection methods.

I don't know what you people don't get about Iraq. Walker, you write well, but I'm out here in Iraq right now, and I see kids playing in open sewers, and I breath the oil smoke from their refineries that are located in the same places they live. People don't have any concept of what causes cancer here, they do what they want without any idea of the health risks. There's people smoking indoors, teens smoking, they drive up the wrong side of the highway in a sandstorm because they want to go 15 mph faster than our convoys! I've seen cars full of families swerving to avoid head on collisions driving the wrong way on a 4 lane highway. These people live very unhealthy lives in a very unhealthy environment, and unless you remove them from that, you can't conclusively say that illnesses in any particular population here are caused by anything. This is the 3rd world, and it sucks.

Gabe_Ruckus I traveled extensively throughout Asia, often for years at stretch, including the Turkish border with Iraq, through Iran from the western border with Turkey to the eastern border with Pakistan and on in to the tribal and border areas and various cities of Pakistan and India and Nepal. I stopped mostly in local hotels and guest houses, not the big chain western hotels, sometimes just in local houses. I traveled almost exclusively on public transport, ate local food at local restaurants and often went in mufti casually passing myself off as a local.

I am fully aware of the sanitary and the pollution status in those countries. I remember well the green sunsets of Tabriz and the fetid stink of open sewers and rotting rubbish piles in cities from Quetta to Karachi. Once while walking across the central divider of a main road in central Delhi north of PharGange on our way to a famous restaurant near the Delhi Campsite; I was among a group of people who found and reported the rotted and long dead corpse of a person among the bushes.

I think I know far more about the way people live in central and east Asia than you do.

While such things make an interesting back ground story the fact the data compares Fallujah to other cities in Iraq and not to Other cities in Europe or America makes your interjection irrelevant to the scientific facts.

If on the other hand you wish to knock the scientific findings you need to find a better scientific study comparing Fallujah to the rest Iraq.

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 27, 2010 by walker

[njmatrix 2]

This is a crap play on bad information and biased conjecture. The article it's self halfway thru semi dismisses the possibilities due to sewage and other factors. All this topic was for was to try n blame Americans for a spike in Cancer that the people whom wrote it can't even definitely prove it or even try to.

[max power 21]

blame Americans for a spike in Cancer

Interesting statement.

Are you saying that this topic is suggesting that all Americans are to blame for the decisions of the leadership of the marine corps? That's not what I got out of it at all.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

The United States Army uses Depleted Uranium as well Max, and I believe what he is saying, is all that news story was meant to do is turn people against the United States. Even if it's a military decision, the finger pointers can blame the United States Government. If the American Government is to blame, then it can be generalized to "America/Americans Are to Blame for Rising Cancer Rates in Iraq".

On a not as serious note, I believe if there are more than one persons using this/causing this, then "Americans" would be right. America would be blaming the country as a whole, American would be blaming 1 person, so if your attempting to blame more than one person, it would be "Americans". :cool:

Edited August 3, 2010 by Darkhorse 1-6

[max power 21]

The United States Army uses Depleted Uranium as well Max, and I believe what he is saying, is all that news story was meant to do is turn people against the United States. Even if it's a military decision, the finger pointers can blame the United States Government. If the American Government is to blame, then it can be generalized to "America/Americans Are to Blame for Rising Cancer Rates in Iraq".

On a not as serious note, I believe if there are more than one persons using this/causing this, then "Americans" would be right. America would be blaming the country as a whole, American would be blaming 1 person, so if your attempting to blame more than one person, it would be "Americans". :cool:

The article seems to single out the Marine Corps. The Army has not been accused of shelling an entire city with depleted uranium as far as I know.

[Big Mac 19]

The article seems to single out the Marine Corps. The Army has not been accused of shelling an entire city with depleted uranium as far as I know.

Yea with a "a new weapon against buildings to break through walls and kill those inside." The guy who made this report is perverting his findings to paint the US in a bad light, when the healthcare and sanitary conditions in Iraq are enough to cause a rise in cancer, but hey bashing the US is all the rage these days...

[HyperU2 11]

Yea with a "a new weapon against buildings to break through walls and kill those inside." The guy who made this report is perverting his findings to paint the US in a bad light, when the healthcare and sanitary conditions in Iraq are enough to cause a rise in cancer, but hey bashing the US is all the rage these days...

And Fallujah is the rallying cry for that.

[walker 0]

Yea with a "a new weapon against buildings to break through walls and kill those inside." The guy who made this report is perverting his findings to paint the US in a bad light, when the healthcare and sanitary conditions in Iraq are enough to cause a rise in cancer, but hey bashing the US is all the rage these days...

Hi Big Mac

As I keep pointing out sanitary conditions is not a factor.

The survey shows that Fallujah has 12 times more childhood cancers than the rest of Iraq.

The comparison is between Fallujah and the rest of Iraq, which have the same sanitary conditions.

The comparison is not between the Fallujah and Washington which have the different sanitary conditions.

Please stop chasing that sanitary towel Big Mac you will only get all ichygoo on you.

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 3, 2010 by walker