Toxic legacy of US assault on Fallujah 'worse than Hiroshima'

[Big Mac 19]

Please stop chasing that sanitary towel Big Mac you will only get all ichygoo on you.

Like you get when you throw the "Oh no WW3 is starting." towel?

[walker 0]

Yea with a "a new weapon against buildings to break through walls and kill those inside." The guy who made this report is perverting his findings to paint the US in a bad light, when the healthcare and sanitary conditions in Iraq are enough to cause a rise in cancer, but hey bashing the US is all the rage these days...

Hi Big Mac

Here let me try it with some grade school arithmetic.

Iraq (the whole of Iraq) has really bad sanitary conditions lets call it a 10 shit country.

Since Fallujah is in Iraq it is a 10 shit town too!

Washington is quite clean lets call it a 3 shit town.

Fallujah has 12 cancers per kiddies.

Iraq has 1 cancer per kiddies.

Washington has 0.00005 cancers per kiddies.

Now here is the question since Iraq has 10 shits just the same as Fallujah has 10 shits. And the number of cancer kiddies in 10 Shit Fallujah is 12 times what the 10 shit country Iraq has and since

Cancer kiddies = Shits + X

12 cancer kiddies = 10 shit Fallujah + X

1 cancer kiddies = 10 shit Iraq + X

Now Since we are comparing 10 shit town Fallujah to 10 shit country Iraq, X has to be bigger in Fallujah than in Iraq.

Notice 3 shit town Washington has nothing to do with this. 3 shit town Washington is a red herring.

That is because we are not comparing the number of cancer kiddies in 3 shit Washington to 10 shit Fallujah. We are comparing the number of cancer kiddies in 10 shit Iraq to 10 shit Fallujah.

In fact Shits has nothing to do with any of this either! We can cancel shits out because they are the same in Iraq as they are in Fallujah. You remember canceling out dont you.

12 cancer kiddies = Fallujah + X

1 cancer kiddies = Iraq + X

So what is X Equal too?

I will give you a star if you can get it right other wise you have to sit in the corner and wear the dunce cap.

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 3, 2010 by walker

[Big Mac 19]

I will give you a star if you can get it right other wise you have to sit in the corner and wear the dunce cap.

Ha ok bud. So in your infinite wisdom what do you believe the cause is since the guy in the report pretty much lost his creditability? It's either DU rounds or shitty health care which is it? Or maybe it's the mishandling of radioactive materials and/or toxic waste at some point. You don't have clue, so how about you go back to what you're good at, predicting the next world war... Edited August 3, 2010 by Big Mac

[walker 0]

Hi Big Mac

As I keep saying it is not sanitation, as the report compares Fallujah to Iraq.

Sanitation is there for canceled out as a factor.

Arithmetic and Mathematics eh. Tough subject for you?

Kind Regards walker

[Big Mac 19]

Hi Big Mac

As I keep saying it is not sanitation, as the report compares Fallujah to Iraq.

Sanitation is there for canceled out as a factor.

Arithmetic and Mathematics eh. Tough subject for you?

Kind Regards walker

That still leaves 3 other possibles. Besides if there's the possibility of mishandled toxic waste or NBC materials that would kinda fall under sanitation.. Edited August 3, 2010 by Big Mac

[Dwarden 1124]

erm how much of the DU ammo was used in the Fallujah battle ?

cause between all the arguments i have yet to seen any factual data about amout of ammunition used for each type ...

[walker 0]

That still leaves 3 other possibles. Besides if there's the possibility of mishandled toxic waste or NBC materials that would kinda fall under sanitation..

Hi Big Mac

Have you ever heard of the saying, "Flogging a dead horse"?

Kind Regards walker

---------- Post added at 11:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------

erm how much of the DU ammo was used in the Fallujah battle ?

cause between all the arguments i have yet to seen any factual data about amout of ammunition used for each type ...

Hi Dwarden

The only people who can answer that question for you is the US Pentagon.

The Pentagon closed down the study they were doing on DU and classified all data. So good luck on getting them to answer you on that one :D

The general scientific opinion is that it could be either DU or Phosphorus.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2010/03/what-is-causing-deformities-in.html

Unless there is another formal study on Fallujah the current study is the only valid scientific data we have.

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 3, 2010 by walker

[Big Mac 19]

Hi Big Mac

Have you ever heard of the saying, "Flogging a dead horse"?

Kind Regards walker

Have you ever heard of "Dodging the question"? People tend to do it when they can't answer the question.

[walker 0]

Have you ever heard of "Dodging the question"? People tend to do it when they can't answer the question.

Hi Big Mac

That still leaves 3 other possibles. Besides if there's the possibility of mishandled toxic waste or NBC materials that would kinda fall under sanitation..

You only enumerate 2 I will answer the third of the

3 other possibles

when you post it.

1)

NBC materials

US forces still remain in Fallujah and any release of NBC materials would trigger a full Mission Oriented Protection Posture (MOPP) Alert. Are you saying NATO Chemical and biological (CB) warfare environment warning systems no long work? Because I think the Pentagon would like to see your scientific paper that tells them their CB warning systems no long work.

2)

mishandled toxic waste

Where is the factory that is producing your supposed waste? I think people would notice a gigantic factory being built in Fallujah within months of the city being leveled. Note the birth defects and childhood cancers happen just after Fallujha was leveled.

The chemicals that cause both birth defects and childhood cancer are reasonably well known. Certainly anything Iraq could produce is. Most are also ones that would trigger a MOPP alert as they are all big nasty poisons, anything with a big chlorine ring would certainly set off the CB alarms of the US Military. The Glycol Ethers, Halogenated Carbon, Benzene and few others might get missed by a CB warning system. The real exceptions are the heavy metals the biggest being mercury though this would show up in standard tests. Then you are looking at radiological effects which of course includes DU. The big Beta and Gamma producing sources would show up on a Geiger counters. The big Alpha producing sources like DU would only show up in contact scanning.

Of course the ONLY scientific paper investigating this is the one talked about in the first post of this thread. I presume you have read the paper, have you not?

http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/7/7/2828/pdf

If you would be so kind as to show the scientific paper that shows the existence of a pollutant we could take this debate further. Until then the only scientific data that stands is that paper linked. So until then QED.

A contact scanning system using dust filters, soil samples and sampling of old grease (on machinery), would pick up whether DU was present in high concentrations. That would be the next set of observations to perform.

I think a long term study of birth defects among the children of US Fallujha veterans in on the cards. You can find out more here:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/07/29/the-suffering-of-fallujah/

Oh by the way on the matter of

"Dodging the question"?

you may want to get on with giving the link to that US Government Report; the one you said you had spotted that says WMD was found in Iraq after Gulf War II as I am sure the Bush Administration, Beck, Rush and Fox News will all want to shout it out!

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 4, 2010 by walker

[Big Mac 19]

US forces still remain in Fallujah and any release of NBC materials would trigger a full Mission Oriented Protection Posture (MOPP) Alert. Are you saying NATO Chemical and biological (CB) warfare environment warning systems no long work? Because I think the Pentagon would like to see your scientific paper that tells them their CB warning systems no long work.

Who said anything about a release? You should learn to read. I was referring to the mishandling on NBC materials and I didn't give a specific time frame. That could mean something as simple as exposing the soil or water supply to these materials and it could have happened with the past 30 or so years.

when you post it.

Reading is key. 1. DU rounds 2. Mishandling of NBC materials. 3. Mishandling of toxic waste.

you may want to get on with giving the link to that US Government Report you said you had spotted that says WMD was found in Iraq after Gulf War II as I am sure the Bush Administration, Beck, Rush and Fox News will all want to shout it out!

WHAT?! I never said anything about WMDs being found in Iraq.

Where is the factory that is producing your supposed waste? I think people would notice a gigantic factory being built in Fallujah within months of the city being leveled. Note the birth defects and childhood cancers happen just after Fallujha was leveled.

The chemicals that cause both birth defects and childhood cancer are reasonably well known. Certainly anything Iraq could produce is. Most are also ones that would trigger a MOPP alert as they are all big nasty poisons, anything with a big chlorine ring would certainly set off the CB alarms of the US Military. The Glycol Ethers, Halogenated Carbon, Benzene and few others might get missed by a CB warning system. The real exceptions are the heavy metals the biggest being mercury though this would show up in standard tests. Then you are looking at radiological effects which of course includes DU. The big Beta and Gamma producing sources would show up on a Geiger counters. The big Alpha producing sources like DU would only show up in contact scanning.

Walker There are many factories in Iraq, I wasn't referring to fallujah specifically and toxic waste can be one of many things and the devices that are used in detecting them are not in the standard gear of every soldier,airmen,sailor,or Marine. What I was referring to was the MISHANDLING of toxic waste and/or NBC materials which could mean improper disposal, to storing it in improperly sealed containers in and around the city of fallujah and any point during the past 30 or so years. And when I say NBC materials I'm referring radioactive materials, chemical weapons (if there were any left after the Iran Iraq war) or in the the extreme unlikely event the Iraqis managed to make a bio weapon.

I'm going on pure speculation and nothing further since the person who conducted these tests mentioned in article only conclusion was that the US was using a new weapon to blow holes in buildings and killing everyone in the process. Which to me smacks of BS. There are many conventional tools of war that can do that already.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Big Mac

[walker 0]

WHAT?! I never said anything about WMDs being found in Iraq.

My heartfelt apologies Big Mac.

I was mixing up replies in two threads and cross posted my self I was replying to this:

Walker, if you go back to the last page, you will find that you are wrong. Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction. We FOUND WMDs inside Iraq.

I'm not sure how hard this is for you to understand. "Weapons of Mass Destruction" does not mean nuclear weapons".

And I conflated you with Darkhorse 1-6; once again my apologies for that.

I have never been much good at this multi tasking malarkey not enough famine genes I guess.

Kind Regards walker

Edited August 4, 2010 by walker

[Baff1 0]

The effects of DU are pretty well documented.

That's why the Brits stopped using it.

We had no end of studies after Gulf War one similar to this one. It's accepted wisdom where I live.

[max power 21]

I think that UN Inspectors closed down a factory in Fallujah that was reportedly manufacturing substances that could be used in chemical weapons after the first gulf war.

[TristanYockell 0]

Tungsten Carbide doesn't have the same incendiary effect as a DU sabot when it hits an armored target, and TC dust still causes fibrosis. It's still lighter, too, so it's not as effective a penetrating core in the calibers of weapons the US uses DU in.

On that Fibrosis, if enough TC was put into an Iraqi city, I'm sure there'd be people complaining about the negative health effects of that, too. Most metals have negative health effects when you crush them up and inhale them, but studies have shown that the vast majority of inhaled DU isn't absorbed into the bloodstream, and the majority of that is excreted through the kidneys as urine. You'd have to hold DU on your skin for literally weeks to get any reaction at all.

Yes DU gets excreted through the kidneys for the most part. However, DU contamination also attributes to fairly high levels of kidney and liver cancers, In Coalition troops "aswell".

Uranium and Depleted Uranium is an alpha and beta emitter for the most part.

Alpha and beta Rays are pretty much harmless outside the body, inside the body however is a different ball game, they wreck havok on cells. DU aerosolized particles from impacts of targets and "natural decay" lodges in the lungs and can take years to migrate from the lungs to filtering organs.

DU and heavy metals also very easily gets deposited in bones "because they are treated as a mineral", Lymphatic systems IE lymph nodes "they attack all dangerous foreign invanders", spleen ect.

The whole concept of DU being pissed out or flushed out of your system with no cancerous or health threatening effects is pure government bullshit propoganda at its finest.

I agree that all Heavy Metals are hazardous to your health if ingested, however to say that metals like Tungsten and Lead are even remotely as hazardous as unstable substances like Uranium and Depleted Uranium is simply not true.

I will also agree that DU makes an excellent weapon, it punches and burns through dense armours and materials like no other, the problem is contaminating the land its fired on for literally beyond the feasible life spand of the human race as we know it.

The land we use these weapons on is rendered tainted for eons and that my friends is a sick proposition.

Edited August 5, 2010 by TristanYockell