Macser

@Snafu I'm not promoting the Skyrim scheme or any attempt to bring it elsewhere. But I don't agree that the product of hobbies has to be free.Just because they're hobbies. There's nothing technically stopping donations.Apparently they just aren't offered very often. I suppose people would rather spend a few cents on something else.Arguably of lesser value. Like a small chocolate bar. @Akvadakar Is that worth 10,20 or 30 cents here and there? That's what I was getting at.Although I should've been clearer.There's nothing wrong with donations.People just don't seem to bother with them much. Why should I use a space after punctuation? If your eyes are bleeding you should see a doctor.Don't tell me about it.

I don't know what that means.Genuinely. :) You're right about it ultimately being up to the modders though.That's something I've said since I started posting in this thread.In fact I'm not saying anything contrary to what Fennek just said.You can't create decent material without investing time into learning the skills necessary.If people suggest that they spend less time on it,or even leave the scene altogether that's not going to benefit anyone. I doubt Valve or Bethesda want to harm a potential customer base.Even if that's what they end up doing.They're trying to cash in on something they don't really understand.And making a pig's ear of it.

@Snafu,Akvadakar I don't think I've ever met a modder that had it get in the way of their life. A person can walk to the shop to get a chocolate bar for a few cents.It's tasty,but it's gone pretty quickly.That same person would come home and sit down to play their favourite game and load up their favourite mods.Which they'll get hours,days,weeks or months out of.But they wouldn't consider throwing the same amount to the authors of those mods and addons.Despite the fact they can afford to. People routinely supplement their meager wage with tips.The patron doesn't have to provide those tips.But they do it anyway most of the time.For various reasons.Tips,donations aren't a bad idea if people actually offer them. If modders get jobs in the gaming industry they likely won't be modding.Certainly not to the same extent. But modders don't get that.Perhaps not the best example. If modders don't put in a few hours you may not get ANY content.Value has been mentioned a few times previously.Players and other modders alike get plenty of value out of addons and mods.Is that worth 10,20 or 30 cents here and there? The system Valve is operating is stupid.There's no denying that. But if nothing else,this debacle should encourage people to actually put a few cents in the tip jar. It might convince the humble modder to put off watching the TV,or going to the pub.Or trimming their toe-nails. I don't support what Valve/Bethesda are doing.But I don't think that modders should be denied the possibility of earning some money out of something that requires skill and talent.Whatever the case regarding talent,you certainly can't develop skills without investing time into it.

@Nodunit Valve are perfectly willing to facilitate it though. The Skyrim debacle is the pilot episode in this melodrama. Everyone who thinks they can make a few quick quid is going to give it a go. I've seen that elsewhere.But why would they remain if people refuse to buy what they put up? This "experiment" is not a surprise.It was conceived well in advance of the announcements. I say "experiment",because it may not actually work.If people don't buy anything it can't. I'm quite sure BI is taking notes. Just because you can make money,doesn't always mean you will. I don't know if the "nice" reference was meant for me.Maybe I come across that way. I get angry up to a point.Then I realise,"wait a sec.It's just a fucking video game". :)

Donations are historically a hit and miss affair. But given the response to the current setup for Skyrim,it might make the idea of donations more appealing to modders and users alike.Perhaps people will be more willing to actually throw a few cents to the author,where they didn't before.

@CosmiC10R I'm not fond of society.I like people though.And people have the potential for good and bad. I know that because I see it,and experience it.I'm not an isolated case. @Probad There's valid concerns being voiced on either side. @Chairborne I see people being passionate about their opinions.That's all.I haven't seen anything like the abuse people have been throwing around elsewhere on the net. As for sharing with the "competition".I see that happen all the time in daily life.Small companies sharing information and techniques.Even lending each other equipment if needed.These are things I've personally witnessed,experienced and partaken in.Even though they may be in the same business. I suppose it depends on the people.And there's a difference between rivalry and dislike.It's far more likely you won't help someone you don't like.Maybe someone who actively goes out of their way to cause you problems,or obstruct you. But it is possible to respect someone you're competitive with.

@CosmiC10R Ok.No harm intended on either side.Communication by text is tricky at times. It can be hard to get the emotion behind the words.I sounded angrier than I was. :) Some people will take advantage of the opportunity.That's true.But some will not.There will be some individuals who exploit it at the expense of others.But they'll reveal themselves by doing so.And of course some may earn a bit of money,and still share what they know.And may even continue to share some assets free of charge. A marketplace may reduce the size of the open community.But sometimes a smaller community is stronger. Genuine,passionate modders are not here simply as a result of the game's popularity.Or how large the following is. That's a welcome bonus I think.

I don't know you.And you don't know me.I've written nothing to warrant being spoken to like I'm an idiot.I've met plenty of people who revere money,and make it their life's work to accumulate as much as possible.Sometimes to the detriment of others.And I'm not talking about video games.I mean genuinely nasty people. But I've met many who view it as what it is.A means to facilitate a living.And nothing more. A thing.And a secondary one at that. I'm not talking about the monetary system though.I'm talking about a very specific group of people. And as it relates to this group,it is a new situation.That's why it's causing so much angst. Blender,for example,has always been open source.It still is.Despite the fact that paid addons and assets(Extensions,Scripts) now exist.Some of the people who sell their content,be it educational or otherwise,continue to help the community they grew from.It's a different model from what I can see.But the point is that it didn't disintegrate.And people haven't devolved into horrible greedy monsters. You won't believe me.But yes I would.By denying even "competitors" you seek to isolate yourself.And it's only information.You can't share skill or innate talent.You learn one and have the other.More technical information may help you with certain aspects of modding.But if you're only capable of basic things,it won't be much use.And if you're more advanced you'll likely find a way to get the results you want.Modders have been hiding "trade secrets" for years.That won't stop.It doesn't make them horrible people. And as amazing as it seems people who earn money from past-times and professions do still share what they know. Think about the concept you're putting forward.That a lot of the people here are nasty already.And the only reason they haven't started cutting the legs from under each other is because there was no possibility of earning money from it.But now that the opportunity has materialised,it's open season? As for newcomers,you only need a couple of skilled and/or talented people willing to share knowledge openly. Literally a handful.

Ok.Why do you feel that way?If this is a new situation then what's the basis for comparison? :) Why do you assume that everyone who was previously nice and helpful,will suddenly become evil and callous?

This has always been inching it's way towards the modding scene.It shouldn't be surprising. Look.Not all modders are going to buy into this.Especially in it's current form.Wait and watch how it pans out.In the mean time appreciate what free content you have access to.Keep tempers in check.I know things are generally more respectful around here,but let's make sure there's none of that abusive nonsense that's been taking place on steam. If a modder wants to sell their content that's their right.Leave it alone.Don't buy it if you feel it's not worth it.I see a danger of people being demonised because of their choices on this matter.That's not acceptable.Use the most viable weapon you have.Disposable income.Don't spend it.Nothing sends a message more clearly to any company than that. I'm not saying anyone here is attempting it.But it's worth pointing out anyway.Going after modders is only going to have one effect.Pushing them out of the scene altogether.Looking around the net at the moment,I'd have second thoughts about getting into it,if I was interested. With respect,who exactly are you addressing that comment to?To BI or to the many modders here?Because if it's the latter then that sounds like,"What you do is sub standard.The only reason I like it is because it's free". It's always been free for two reasons.Licensing and the fact modders wanted it that way.Not to keep users happy.

Sure,if they add that value.Do they? Of course you need the base game.But that's just a base game.Unless it gets some expansions,it's lifespan is at an end once played through.Multiplayer might provide some entertainment for a while.But nowhere near the extension that mods and addons bring.And not just extension.But a potentially larger customer base.

Windies,I disagree on that.I think that's a central point in this whole thing. I'm not misinterpreting anything. Let me quote one knuckle-dragger from the Steam side: "Dev of the mod,go ♥♥♥♥ yourself.You have ZERO integrity,and you're attempting to ruin something that has been free for decades.You are a ♥♥♥♥ing scumbag.And I seriously hope any and all reputation you have is lost." That may not be representative of the majority.But it's not an isolated case of open hostility. Yes.But who are you helping?Who are you giving advice to?Who would you share your work with?Primarily other modders.Or people interested in getting into it.They know what you do takes some effort.They understand the limitations you have to work with.They likely don't demand anything from you.The fact that players who never mod can access what you share,is a luxury.You are not required or obligated to do so.You choose it.Not all members appreciate that.Perhaps this situation can highlight that. I don't honestly believe there's going to be any modding millionaires.But a person can still have passion for what they do while making money from it.They are no less deserving of respect than anyone else.

People have said they will never pay for mods.If this applies to material they haven't actually seen or used yet,then it can't relate to pricing,functionality or quality.All this leaves is the fact it was created by a modder.As opposed to a game developer.There are people who believe content should be free because it's user created. It might.Although I was asking about the attitudes some people seem to have about modding. As if it's something altruistic that must never be touched by commerce. If I'm to be honest I don't give a toss about a potential marketplace.It's the attitudes towards modders I'm most interested in.That reddit link and some posts on steam about the subject have revealed some people to have a complete lack of respect for other human beings.And from what I can gather they aren't modders.I hope they're a small isolated group,because they'll kill any mod scene just as surely as they claim commercial content will.

I was talking more about people who restrict themselves to playing,and want access to free stuff.The best way to get that,is to create it yourself.If they are sincere about the sharing ideal,then they'll have the opportunity to do that. :) There's nothing wrong with that idea either.But isn't that a personal choice?The question is,would you like that choice to be taken from you?Especially when it relates to something you created.Something you invested time in. Shouldn't you be the one to decide how your work is presented?Shouldn't it be up to you whether or not it is sold,or shared?Wouldn't you feel the tiniest bit of irritation seeing someone actively lobby to prevent you from availing of a choice.Even if you never intended to take advantage of it in the first place? @no-one in particular I just don't understand the logic some people are putting forward.As if modding is some kind of humanitarian effort. Or that it's somehow sacred and should be unsullied by the evils of money.Can anyone tell me where that comes from?Or why it applies to modding? Is it because it has entertainment value?That it's not something practical?Like a saucepan?People pay for films and music.Some of which they may only see or listen to on occasion.Far less than their favourite collection of addons and mods. If there's a problem with functionality or quality I could understand.That's reasonable.That's sensible. But saying you would never pay for something just because it was made by a modder,makes no sense to me.

It looks like now's the time for people to stop being just players and actually get into modding. Which wouldn't be a bad thing,would it? Besides saving cash,it will give people some appreciation of what goes into a mod or addon. Even a seemingly simple one.

This is a rig for Blender,that may be useful to anyone interested in creating their own animations for OFP/CWA.It's based around one of Sanctuary's WW4 meshes.As that was the primary reason for creating it.So any animations made with it,will obviously work best with either WW4 characters or the Resistance Civilian mesh. Although the requirements are listed in the readme I'll outline them here. You'll need Blender.Any version from 2.69 to 2.73. You will need a copy of O2 personal edition for animations which move position.Such as walk cycles. This is a limitation in the rtm export of the Arma toolbox.Note that you don't need buldozer to work,for this process. You will need to grab a copy of Alwarren's Arma toolbox to export your rtms. The video below was created for another file called ArmaRig.The information contained in it also applies to OFP/CWA.It deals with creating and exporting a couple of static animations. Which should be enough to get you started. FlashRigV1 (Use the "click here to download from Sendspace" link)

:D Fair enough.In lieu of a soul,a digital thumbs up will do. I do have to make something clear to everyone.All 6 of ye. :D Al's toolbox can only export rtms,in it's current form.Importing is not possible. Not that I've ever found that a problem personally. So if you just want to make little tweaks to existing animations OFPanim would be just as useful.

Hey guys.Hope you can get something out of it.And thanks for the replies. Sorry for the confusion Kenoxite.I meant any version of Blender from 2.69 to 2.73. :)

That likely relates to the error Drakedaeron mentions.If an animation (RTM) is not present,or is not where it's supposed to be,when called,the character will revert to the "T-pose".

@Kayvaan With regard to frame rate drop. Seeing as the frame rate drop relates to weapons,particularly with high fire rates,it might be your soundcard.I get the same issue with CWA/OFP on occasion.Especially as the weapon starts firing. If it is that,I don't know of any way of curing it,short of getting new hardware. Have you noticed it happening anywhere else?

A marketplace may or may not happen.I'm not all that interested in that. What has been interesting and revealing,is seeing the underlying reasons for preventing it. And getting a little more insight into the relationship between people who create and people who play. It should be of particular interest to modders,or anyone considering getting into modding.

I don't think anyone would be surprised by people not wanting to spend money. It should also not be surpising that modders don't like being taken for granted. It's also true that people have come here,or bought into the Arma series,for the modding scene. But the modding scene is not to be confused with people interested in free stuff.Those are two different things. Modding is an activity.It's a hobby.A craft.Even an art form.Usually not done with the intent to provide free content.That's probably the last thing on a modder's mind when they set out to start a new project.People share what they share for a number of reasons.To show off their skills.To compare their own work with that of others.To share knowledge.To learn and possibly improve the gaming or modding experience.By providing mods,addons,missions and tools. If support is given to commercialised mods,addons and missions then the wider community will just have to adjust to that.Some people may leave because of it.A lot maybe.I don't know.But I doubt the vast majority of those would've been interested in modding.In any case,I know for a fact there are modders who don't have an interest in selling their work.And would continue to provide it free. Still.I don't recall seeing any advertisements/commercials stating that the Arma series is a source of free content.There's certainly no suggestion of an all you can eat buffet of goodies,provided by enthusiasts working on their spare time. Somewhere along the line,people formed this concept themselves,and now see it as part of the purchase price of the game.I don't see any evidence that this was ever an official marketing strategy.

Yes.Bis has provided great games for us to buy and provided some tools to create content.Although modders have provided many tools themselves.Some of which are superior.You still have to purchase a game.Whether you're playing or modding. I don't see how that means we must have free access to anything we want.That the modder should provide content free of charge,in perpetuity. The modder does what they do on their time.It is their effort. It's not up to you or I,modder or player,to determine how an individual presents their work.And it's only up to BIS when it relates to copyright/IP and use of works covered by it.Or in how it relates to forums and sites under their control. Modders are also part of that "audience " you mention.And always have been. :)

I apologise for directing that at you in particular. :) My point was something that this thread has served to highlight.I didn't think much of it until recently.I was aware that some members have always had a sense of right and entitlement.But it seems to have become slightly more aggressive over the years. Some members seem to think modders should remain within the open community,but only on their terms.This is the part that irritates me the most.Not the possibility of a digital marketplace.But that modders would be denied the option to present their work in a commercial way,if,the opportunity presented itself. It is a hobbyist environment as far as I'm concerned.This community did not start out as a way to acquire free content.This has simply been a circumstance.Circumstances can and do change. That's absolutely true.It has gotten along just fine.But that's only because it didn't affect peoples access to free content.No-one who wants free stuff sees a need for money to be involved. If that was applied to any other situation outside these boards would it sound fair? :)

How would you lose money?Surely you would've made the choice to purchase something you wanted. "lose" makes it sound like an automatic process out of the user's control. That's true.It doesn't.Why is there an expectation that it must?Why do you feel a modder must facilitate the player's need to save money?It's a modding community.Where people generally share their work with other modders.So they can learn from and enjoy the work,then pass that knowledge and experience on. That players get to use that content free of charge should be considered a bonus.A much appreciated bonus.Not something we have a right to,simply because we purchased a game.That was a transaction between BI and the purchaser. BI do not create the mods and addons in question.Modding enthusiasts do. They are not contracted to provide anything.We did not pay them.They owe us nothing. If they choose to change that arrangement and sell their work then that's different.There will be some expectation.But it would be justified in that case.Yet choice would remain for the end user. I don't think the vast majority of modders really mind this one-sided arrangement between them and others.It benefits BI that more people purchase the game to access this wealth of material.It may be argued that it benefits the modder too,having a willing audience to enjoy it.But that's where that ends. If this situation was to push most of the current mod community towards a commercial model,it might make the members here a little more appreciative of the few willing to forego it. Not that I think there would be any mass exodus. :)