The AI's Biotic X-Ray Vision through certain objects: A bit of research on the matter

[Tonci87 163]

No he means some kind of mapklick Teleport

[old_painless 182]

Interesting test, PoorOldSpike. I am not really familiar with setting up such a test, but could Red's behaviour/mode be a factor?

Ie. if above he was "careless" while running towards Blue behind the bush; would it then be different if Red was made Aware or put in Danger mode during his travel. Perhaps more on watch and scanning more frequently/intensely.

Perhaps that could alter the outcome, ie. make him "see" Blue earlier.

-OP

[NeMeSiS 11]

Interesting test, PoorOldSpike. I am not really familiar with setting up such a test, but could Red's behaviour/mode be a factor?

Ie. if above he was "careless" while running towards Blue behind the bush; would it then be different if Red was made Aware or put in Danger mode during his travel. Perhaps more on watch and scanning more frequently/intensely.

Perhaps that could alter the outcome, ie. make him "see" Blue earlier.

-OP

It would matter if blue wasnt hiding behind an object the AI fucking cant see through. Its not magic: viewblock lods block the AI's view, this bush has them, the AI cannot see through it. It doesnt matter if its a bush or a house, if the viewblock lod is present the AI cannot see through it, the only difference is that the AI can shoot through bushes and will do so if its likely you are behind it.

[metalcraze 290]

Except as proven by these tests AI does need improvement in this area. I mean you would know there's an enemy in the bushes if you've seen him running behind the bush so you would open fire.

Why AI won't unless by some magical coincidence?

[pooroldspike 129]

..but could Red's behaviour/mode be a factor?

Ie. if above he was "careless" while running towards Blue behind the bush; would it then be different if Red was made Aware or put in Danger mode during his travel. Perhaps more on watch and scanning more frequently/intensely.

Perhaps that could alter the outcome, ie. make him "see" Blue earlier...

Yes perhaps, but like I said the permutations are endless and it'd take forever to run tests for every one.

My testing policy is just to do a few basic "skeleton" tests, which we can all then interpret, meditate on,extrapolate from and found new religious cults upon as we see fit.

The bush tests show that if you're lurking quietly behind a bush, the AI bots are much less likely to spot you, but if they see you move behind it you're likely to get bullets ripping through the bush at you just as in real life, and that's all I personally need to know..:)

What words of wisdom can you give us Master?

"You must expect the unexpected, grasshopper"

Edited April 8, 2011 by PoorOldSpike

[LeadCommando65 10]

It would matter if blue wasnt hiding behind an object the AI fucking cant see through. Its not magic: viewblock lods block the AI's view, this bush has them, the AI cannot see through it. It doesnt matter if its a bush or a house, if the viewblock lod is present the AI cannot see through it, the only difference is that the AI can shoot through bushes and will do so if its likely you are behind it.

It would be interesting how much of the hiding soldier has to be "unblocked" by the view LOD to make the AI see it.

As you could imagine, if the AI detects a soldier hiding behind a bush because his left toe was exposed, you would might say the AI can see through bushes.

I'll try to make further investigations on that as soon as I have the time.

[metalcraze 290]

if the AI detects a soldier hiding behind a bush because his left toe was exposed, you would might say the AI can see through bushes.

That's a new stupid myth that appeared when "baaawww AI can see through bushes" myth was proven wrong?

Have you seen his screenshots? He was standing behind the not too dense bush and AI couldn't see him point blank.

In my game AI couldn't see the enemy behind the bush with both of his feet exposed.

AI doesn't cheat. In fact AI is more blind than it needs to be.

[4 IN 1 0]

Together they are living in a world of their own and no one, no matter what have been said, will affact their through.

[LeadCommando65 10]

That's a new stupid myth that appeared when "baaawww AI can see through bushes" myth was proven wrong?

Have you seen his screenshots? He was standing behind the not too dense bush and AI couldn't see him point blank.

In my game AI couldn't see the enemy behind the bush with both of his feet exposed.

AI doesn't cheat. In fact AI is more blind than it needs to be.

I never said the AI cheats nor did I say, that AI can see through bushes.

My intent was to give a new impulse on the issue that people sometimes have the feeling that the AI has X-ray vision. I suggested further investigations cause the thread creator had the ambitions to do some "research" on this issue which could be very helpful to reveal the cause of people still complaining about X-ray AIs.

I created some simple and fast test missions regarding the bush type and level of exposure:

AI_bushtests.zip

In every scenario the player stands behind a bush, which should cover him clearly, at least for human eyes.

The "kav" box in the upper left corner displays the knowsabout value of the enemy soldier.

Settings:

skillFriendly=1;
skillEnemy=0.55000001;
precisionFriendly=1;
precisionEnemy=0.55000001;

ArmA:CO 1.59/1.09

And here's one picture from my test:

Can you see the soldier which is detected by the player character? (The other AI in the group waits on the other side of the map.)

My test results:

AItest_bush: no detection; enemy does not see player or vice versa; crouch/prone/stand has no effect

AItest_bush2: detection of enemy immediately after mission start; enemy can also see player in standing position; if player crouches/is prone, no detection occurs

AItest_bush3: detection of enemy immediately after mission start; player gets shot only in prone position, but detected by the enemy in every position (knowsabout 4)

In all scenarios the player should not be able to detect the enemy soldier as his view is blocked by the bush (and vice versa).

It would be very interesting, if someone gets other results or confirms this.

If this gets confirmed, there are definitely one or more major bugs out there, which allow the AI to see through particular bushes in certain situations. (Ok, now I did it ;) ...)

Edited April 11, 2011 by LeadCommando65
updated test missions with proper description

[igneous01 19]

problem with your experiment is that your spawning the units to face each other when the mission starts.

im not sure what tree that is, but if your spawning it, then chances are the units are being created first, see each other momentarily (knowsabout increases) and then the tree is created creating blockage of LOS.

the best way to test this would be to have the unit face the other way (not looking) and give him a waypoint to walk towards you and then see if that has any effect.

from my experience, you will always be spotted if you are facing an enemy at the start of a mission, because the objects are created and rendered afterwards.

[LeadCommando65 10]

problem with your experiment is that your spawning the units to face each other when the mission starts.

im not sure what tree that is, but if your spawning it, then chances are the units are being created first, see each other momentarily (knowsabout increases) and then the tree is created creating blockage of LOS.

the best way to test this would be to have the unit face the other way (not looking) and give him a waypoint to walk towards you and then see if that has any effect.

from my experience, you will always be spotted if you are facing an enemy at the start of a mission, because the objects are created and rendered afterwards.

Have you played the test mission(s)? I believe no, cause what you are saying about my missions, is not correct.

Just play the missions, before you are judging about my tests... :mad:

You can even modify the missions (what a wonder :rolleyes:) to suit your test conditions. The enemy is always facing away from the player, but in case of the player I have tested both: player facing away at mission start and player facing the enemy at mission start. It makes no difference. Sadly, I saved the missions after the second test conditions so you need to turn the player around manually. But I think you can do this by yourself....

I have also included a negative control, which excludes the possibility of detection in case the bushes are created after the characters. If you have read my post carefully, you would have seen that the first test gave a negative result about the detection at mission start. Your arguments were long disproved by my earlier post....

Edited April 10, 2011 by LeadCommando65

[h - 169]

It would matter if blue wasnt hiding behind an object the AI fucking cant see through. Its not magic: viewblock lods block the AI's view

Dunno about A2 but in A1 I tested this once and the AI could actually see through an object that had view geo but transparent texture.

Same object with non-transparent texture and it couldn't see through it..

Obviously I might have f'd up something but it was the same model just with transparent and non-transparent texture (for the two test classes I used).

The object had heavy geometry mass so dunno if it was because of that it didn't shoot me until I came out from behind the object but it's knowsabout raised to 4 when he arrived near the object..

Edited April 10, 2011 by h -

[pooroldspike 129]

STONE WALL COVER TEST

Anything that stops bullets and completely blocks line of sight is real cover (such as this wall), but anything that won't stop bullets and may only intermittently block LOS (such as a bush) is not real cover.

Blue guy is safely prone behind a wall, he can neither see nor be seen-

The 3rd person view reveals an enemy machinegunner (circled)-

I order blue to stand up and the MG immediately spots him and begins firing, and Blue gets wounded-

So I order him to drop prone again. The MG keeps firing for about 8 more seconds even though he can no longer see Blue, and his bullets splatter harmlessly against the wall-

[wipman 1]

Hi, if you move left or right in that situation you'll notice that the AI's fire follow you, even when your shadow isn't casted by the other side of the solid object or building; the AI seems to know where you're and where you're going 'matrix style'.

During the SP missions, Camapaign and in MP you'll be informed many times of NMEs behind buildings, forests and entire hills; on ocasions also behind 400m of buildings (in electrochernagorsk or whatever) during the campaign. Same as they know that you're on the cargo seats of BRDMs, LAVs and BTRs 90 that have the engine turned Off and didn't shoot or was on the move before the AI begin to fire at you (on the vehicle's cargo) with their GLs, RPGs or MGs. Let's C ya

[metalcraze 290]

Every time I change a position behind the building I can still hear AI firing at the corner I was at and see him aiming there when I look from another corner. As soon as I do that however AI immediately starts turning his gun to my side as it should be.

I haven't seen any bugs like "enemy behind the hill 1km away" since ArmA2 1.00

Why AI didn't see the guy behind that low wall then if it has magical x-ray vision? Why when I was lying 500m away from AI on the absolutely empty hill without any concealment on Takistan and firing from an unsilenced M110 AI never seen me even though I fired ~50 shots? This myth needs to die, seriously.

AIs also have the time you need to be in their line of sight that is dependable on the distance to be able to detect you - and with vanilla AI you may as well dance for seconds 300m away from them, they are as blind as a bat unless you use mods. I've seen multiple times how when I saw an enemy patrol immediately 200m away it took my AI team members about 4 seconds before they spotted the patrol.

Edited April 10, 2011 by metalcraze

[pooroldspike 129]

HUG THAT TREE!

(vanilla Comb Ops 1.08/1.57, Regular difficulty)

In this test I started Blue guy behind the tree, then sidestepped him out to reveal his position to the Red rifleman up on the slope (circled), then quickly stepped back behind the tree as the bullets began coming in.

The tree gave him total protection; you can see the wood dust and chips flying as the bullets smack into the tree-

PS- 'Cover and concealment' test thread here- http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/showthread.php?7915-Cover-and-concealment

Edited April 10, 2011 by PoorOldSpike

[NeMeSiS 11]

kAetUEISzt8

Description has downloadable demomission so you can try it yourself. Edited April 10, 2011 by NeMeSiS

[pooroldspike 129]

Sorry, I couldn't understand exactly what the video was trying to demonstrate..

[NeMeSiS 11]

Sorry, I couldn't understand exactly what the video was trying to demonstrate..

Exactly what you did, except i show the place the AI actually thinks where you are once you start hiding. I prefer seeing raw data rather than just playing and interpreting what is going on.

[pooroldspike 129]

When your man in the video ran behind the bush, why didn't the enemy fire through the bush?

Here are two screenshots from one of my tests, and we plainly see the enemy fire through the bush-

I decide to taunt Red, so I move Blue sideways out into the open, and Red INSTANTLY BEGINS FIRING-

So I run Blue back behind the bush but Red KEEPS FIRING THROUGH THE BUSH, ouch that hurt-

And the fat lady sings..

[NeMeSiS 11]

When your man in the video ran behind the bush, why didn't the enemy fire through the bush?

Because i was 100% behind the viewblock lod, hence he couldnt see me at all and the red arrow (where he estimated i was) was meters away from me.

I encountered what happens to you several times as well, if you move behind the bush while he is firing at you he may keep on firing for a while longer. Also, any suppresive fire would be directed at the arrow, not at me. Firing through bushes is rather rate, not usual behaviour.

I provided the demomission for a reason, try it yourself.

[maturin 12]

Maybe it's the bush type or the weapon type. Maybe it's the skill level or the distance or the framerate. Maybe it's the horoscope.

It would be interesting to see the viewblock LoDs for many bushes. The bush in Nemesis' mission has very ample viewblock, and too much of it at the base, whereas others seem rather lacking.

[NeMeSiS 11]

It would be interesting to see the viewblock LoDs for many bushes. The bush in Nemesis' mission has very ample viewblock, and too much of it at the base, whereas others seem rather lacking.

The middle of a bush is almost always safe, just stop hiding behind the edges of bushes, been like that since OFP.

[pooroldspike 129]

Thanks, the video confirmed what we already knew, namely that sometimes the enemy will fire through the bush, and sometimes he won't, so bushes are never guaranteed to block LOS..:)

Edited April 11, 2011 by PoorOldSpike

[NeMeSiS 11]

Thanks, the video confirmed what we already knew, namely that sometimes the enemy will fire through the bush, and sometimes he won't, so bushes are never guaranteed to block LOS..:)

You do realise that the AI is able to fire without a direct line of sight? :rolleyes:

Viewblock lods are guaranteed to block LOS, they just dont block bullets and the AI knows it.