TDM; any takers?

[MirindoR 10]

i'm working on a small TDM mission based on the editor wizard; 16v16

opfor vs blufor.

im doing it on namalsk as there is a really nice zone that includes a town and woods in a very small area allowing for varied gameplay without player dispertion; the zone is limited on every side so thatg you can't run out of it.

by adding a few buildings and static weapons on each spawn point, maybe a even an AI controlled tank at each spawn point it should be easy to limit spawnraping.

got a few more ideas to make the game intersting and i'm working on it but first i'd like to see if anyone's interested.

i dodnt have a dedicated server but i can host on my machine just to try it out.

I remember i had done this ages ago with a few friends of mine (4 of us total) editing, changing and tweaking the map after every game with the wizard,

and we started to get people connecting immediately, to the point i had to put a password or the rest would lag like hell.

pvp has been discussed a lot and arma 2 doesn't have a lot of it, but i think all we need is a server with few or no addons required, and a simple game mode like TDM. arma provides the template, i can handle the rest. what's really hard to come by is players.

let me know in this thread what you peeps think, maybe those interested can get together and start a game up.

[JCarter 10]

Sounds like fun as long as the restricted zones don't detract from the tactical aspect; which I think is one of the key selling points for Arma2 in the first place - the expansive maps.

[jblackrupert 14]

I can never understand the postage stamp size map thing

Arma 2 has oooooodles of space yet map makers keep insisting

on teeny tiny maps.

Edited May 28, 2010 by jblackrupert

[Zipper5 74]

Quality over quantity. ;)

[MirindoR 10]

quality over quantity indeed; make no mistake 16 v 16 players with no vehicles moving around a small town with enterable buildings + some surrounding woods is fine i think.

make it any bigger and it would be more running than anything else.

of course playing 50v50 on a much bigger map would be twice as fun, but then again 100 players is pretty much the total number of arma 2 players in all the servers at a given moment :/

[Erratic 10]

quality over quantity indeed; make no mistake 16 v 16 players with no vehicles moving around a small town with enterable buildings + some surrounding woods is fine i think.

make it any bigger and it would be more running than anything else.

of course playing 50v50 on a much bigger map would be twice as fun, but then again 100 players is pretty much the total number of arma 2 players in all the servers at a given moment :/

It sounds nice, but I usually see much more than a 100 players on Arma 2

[galzohar 31]

You can't really run a TDM without having a very strict zone restriction. Players will simply not meet eachother if you let them roam freely, as there is no objective that needs to be attacked/defended. Even when I made a very small TDM (~50X50 or so zone size, for up to 12 players though usually played with ~4) you'd find yourself running around looking for the other guys quite often, as there's simply nothing that makes you meet eachother.

What I did try for zone restrictions is that you don't just die when leaving the zone, but instead you get marked on the map/GPS for the enemies. That way you can leave the zone but you wouldn't survive long if you do. I'd release the missions but the script that does that still has some slight bugs that I cannot find a fix for (probably has something to do with the list of the zone trigger not updating properly).

[Taxman 10]

We play a bit of TDM on the SBS server, although we do not use other islands..... The TdM's we play were made by Tom Anger, and have restricted Lives .... only 3 lives per player allowed.. makes you think twice about running around like a headless chicken...

[galzohar 31]

We play a bit of TDM on the SBS server, although we do not use other islands..... The TdM's we play were made by Tom Anger, and have restricted Lives .... only 3 lives per player allowed.. makes you think twice about running around like a headless chicken...

That kinda beats the purpose of TDM though, doesn't it? If people are too afraid of dying in TDM, all they do is sit in a corner and await the arrival of the messiah (or someone that ends up getting bored waiting for the messiah and happened to run into their sights, which is probably what ends up happening most of the time as eventually the will to do something overcomes the will to win). Realism/fear of death/etc requires some kind of an objective other than killing if you want the game to actually go anywhere.

[Taxman 10]

Try a time limit Galzohar and then play with some peeps who actually want to win... works every time. ITs not headless chicken which is why its better.

[ryguy 10]

I think TDM is awesome, but I swear to god there is no other game mode where teamwork is less common. Everyone just goes rambo.

[Zipper5 74]

Unless you play with a clan competitively. ;)

[Taxman 10]

Try tom angers version,,,, you cant rambo it,, just doesnt work,

[Infam0us 10]

Clearly you've never played CTF Corridor :o

[Taxman 10]

:) inf.. thats CTF, this is TDM diff kettle of fish buddy...

[galzohar 31]

If you want to win in a TDM you will do nothing but find a good spot and wait until someone comes in your sights. Anything else will increase your chances of losing. And of course if the other side does the same this is even more correct.

TDM will always be the "headless chicken" game or a "everyone that want to win camp until time runs out" game since there is no objective and you don't lose when the time limit runs out so you have no motivation to risk your life in order to get something done beforehand, as what you need to get done is not die in the firstplace.

Defenders in any realistic game have the advantage. If you make any kind of symmetric game mode in a realistic game, nobody (that wants to win) has any reason whatsoever to attack, as by doing that he loses the "defender's advantage". The only way to get people who want to win to actually do something is make them lose if they run out of time, but obviously that means the other team wins. In the end if you want something tactical you have to make an objective that one side defends and the other attacks and the attacking side loses when time runs out but gets other advantages to compensate (be it equipment, positioning or anything else you can come up with).

For actual TDM, you can't force players to not camp, but you can at least not totally kill their fun (by taking them out of the game because they ran out of lives) when they try to stop camping and end up getting killed.

[Infam0us 10]

:) inf.. thats CTF, this is TDM diff kettle of fish buddy...

You are correct my friend, I misread the title of the post! I was just using it as an example of a map that if you "Rambo" on you die pretty quickly :) At least I do whenever I play it :D

[galzohar 31]

All CTFs I've tried out in Arma 2 seemed to be more of a TDM and the flags were really there just for looks - nobody bothered capturing them as that wasn't a very feasible task. Maybe CTF have been improved since then, though.

[Taxman 10]

Maybe you should try playing some first Galzohar, the aim of the game is to WIN regardless of Kill count so how you can justify that the flags are there just for looks is way beyond me, you obviously play a totally diff game to myself and the majority of CTF players.. regards to the TDM's actually try it B4 you voice such an opinion at least you can truly state some facts then.... you are welcome to try them on our server one night... maybe you will realise that NOT ALL play the game the same as you buddy..... some of us actually try to win..... Any decent player should know that if he camps for more than one kill he is then on the back foot if the opposite number has called in his position which nearly always happens....

Infamous,,, Corridor.. omg... fun though just for limited amount of time... gets you finger twitching :)

[Infam0us 10]

Infamous,,, Corridor.. omg... fun though just for limited amount of time... gets you finger twitching :)

Aye very twitchy map with lots of leaning around corners only to be shot in the back! Get this fella on your SBS Server or into APL and see how many people go for the flag then ;)

[-sbs-Karlos 10]

All CTFs I've tried out in Arma 2 seemed to be more of a TDM and the flags were really there just for looks - nobody bothered capturing them as that wasn't a very feasible task.

lol...what a bizarre statement. I've never, ever played a CTF since playing arma 2 where nobody bothered with the flags. However, there is a world of difference between CTF with random public players and playing competitive clan matches.

The Team DMs I have played have been very good, tense and not at all about sitting back and waiting for a 0-0 draw. Not to plug another mode but the Siege mode we have been playing is also a cracking mode played in a smaller area.

People seem to believe Arma 2 should be played over umpteen kilometers and anything smaller is a waste. I think these smaller game modes are completely underated due to the fact that they dont often lend themselves to a public game. But in match environment they are thrilling.

[galzohar 31]

I did mention they were the CTFs I joined into. Obviously not a competitive one. But after trying to get the flag myself a few times I could see why nobody bothers - the mission was designed in a way that made it nearly impossible to capture. Respawn point was too close to your own flag and the area was too open making it easy to overwatch your flag and kill anyone who tries to capture it, while someone who wants to capture would have to clear a large area first, which of course is not possible because of how close the respawn is.

I'm sure you have some better CTF missions now that actually work competitively, but the CTF servers I joined didn't have any of those.

I'm not against smaller game modes, not at all. Just that you need to have some kind of defense/attack (such as in siege) in order to actually get the game going. In TDM you can't really say that those who aren't camping are actually trying to win. They're more "prefer to have a 60% lose 40% win chance than a 100% tie", and if both teams are like that it actually balances out. But place a "camper" team against a so called "'try' to win" team, and given equal skill on both teams, the "camper" team should win every time.

Note that you don't necessarily camp in the same place all the time, once you got a kill if the enemy now has your position obviously you will swap, but even getting a single kill like that means it was being effective. Think about it - 1 free kill and THEN go out for a 50%/50% kill/die, much better than going for 50/50 from the start. And that's assuming the enemy can get to your now known position before you moved to a new one, or else camping is even better.

TDMs can be fun if both teams are playing them for pure fun with not a huge care for winning. But I just don't see how you play it competitively without having most of the players camp most of the time. And yes, I've tried TDM with friends a few times, and as soon as someone gets tired of dying too much and just camps a decent spot, it takes a while and usually at least 1 death to find him, meaning it was being effective (but again not very fun).

Edited June 2, 2010 by galzohar

[jblackrupert 14]

People seem to believe Arma 2 should be played over umpteen kilometers and anything smaller is a waste.

But some of the deathmatch maps are so tiny you can't take 50 steps before

you find yourself at the enemy base.

I've seen Bachelor Apartments with more Lebensraum :D

[galzohar 31]

Well, any game mode with an objective in a known position can theoretically be played on just about any zone size and still be interesting. TDM, though, since it's based on objectives in unknown locations (the players you need to kill can be anywhere), the zone size has to be limited or else you'd end up looking for them forever.

[Taxman 10]

Well, any game mode with an objective in a known position can theoretically be played on just about any zone size and still be interesting. TDM, though, since it's based on objectives in unknown locations (the players you need to kill can be anywhere), the zone size has to be limited or else you'd end up looking for them forever.

Completely agree... you could fall asleep waiting to find a player on too large a map.. then get killed and have to do it again... TDM lends itself to small to medium maps... CTF can be small/medium/large... Siege can be small/medium/large DM small maps also....