Can red-dots be made realistic in Arma2?

[Nielsen 10]

Hi all.

Since I started playing Arma1 I've had serious issues with the way red-dots are depicted ingame.

The problem is this:

Red-dots are designed to let you aim with both eyes open. The resulting increased depth-vision makes the frame of the sight almost invisible to the user. In Arma2 the red-dots are depicted at full opacity when you aim. This is restricting your FOV and thereby your awareness in an unrealistic manner, since depth-vision lets you "see through" the frame IRL.

After searching for similar discussions on this forum, I found an old thread where it was suggested that the 3D modeling of the sights poses limitations in this regard. This seems reasonable to me, and would explain why only sights that are depicted as "overlays" have reduced opacity while aiming.

I would like to ask this very competent community, if this is final, or if something can be done to combat it.

In your considered opinion, is it possible to make the red-dot sights semi-transparent while aiming your rifle?

The unrealistic red-dots are my key annoyance with this otherwise awsome game, and I have a hard time shaking it off. I would like to know if I should hold my breath for a mod that lets me enjoy these wonderful sights, or I have to just accept the way it is, and either use the crosshairs/lasers as a more accurate red-dot simulation (:(), or just stick to ACOG and IS.

Any qualified thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards

R. Nielsen

[Laqueesha 474]

This is a small detail, yet it has an insurmountable effect on gameplay. I remember there was one addon for ArmA 1 with proper red-dot sights.

[Beagle 684]

Me personally did overcome this problem by using a widescreen TFT and assigning a "Field of View" axis to one of my X52 sliders. This is the best solution for me and I can live quite well with it.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Beagle

[Nielsen 10]

Thanks for responding!

@Laqueesha:

Interesting. I cant recall to have seen this mod. Was it still 3D modeled, so that you raised your weapon as usual? If a mod could change the opacity of the sight in Arma1, there's good reason to think that it can also be done in Arma2. This cheers me up quite a bit. I guess my next step would be to start brownnosing skilled mod-makers :D

@Beagle:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "assigning a "Field of View" axis".

I aint got a X52, but I've got a stick with throttle. What do yo mean, and how did this overcome the problem? I am intrigued by all possible solution!

[Beagle 684]

@Beagle:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "assigning a "Field of View" axis".

I aint got a X52, but I've got a stick with throttle. What do yo mean, and how did this overcome the problem? I am intrigued by all possible solution!

There is a control function zoom in/out configurable in settings. By default it is assigned to "Track IR". You can assign any joystick slider axis to this and have a adjustavle field of view in all situations. You can quickly zoom out for a wide FOV in CQC or zoom in for better target aquisition with Iron sights or Aimpoints at long range. Edited March 25, 2010 by Beagle
grammar correction

[Nielsen 10]

@Beagle:

Ah I see. I've bound 'zoom in' to another mouse button, so I can zoom without holding my breath. Maybe I should have a look at binding it to a slider and see what it does for me. Thanks for your input!

I would however (virtually) kill for a mod that reduces opacity when aiming.

I'm still very much interested in hearing about the possibilities of this. Anyone knows if it can be done, and how hard it would be?

[instagoat 133]

I think all solutions that have been tried so far by the community (and possibly BIS too, they know about the problem. There´s at least one, if not multiple tickets on the CIT) have involved texture trickery and magic of one sort or the other.

What would be great if the red dot could somehow be turned into a part of the GUI that only shows up when looking down the sights, because that would solve many problems at once, in my opinion. (I´ve to admit I´m no programmer, and not very familiar with how RV works on the inside since I don´t do any modding, though)

You could scale/alter the sight according to the gun very easily, you could set brightness/dimensions/type very easily, and it would always be projected at infinity, as a red dot/holo sight should.

The feature is already implemented in the default "crosshairs" that you can enable on lower difficulty levels. It would be like that, except permanent and only working when looking down the sights of a red dot scope.

I´m going to go check on Devheaven if this has been suggested already tonight, because this solution has been talked about before on the forums, and maybe it´s been tried and found impossible already too. Would be a pity if that, because right now, Red dots are pretty much useless. If they could be made to work, the headbob could be brought back too, so you´d have a definite advantage with red dots over iron sights.

Ironsights I prefer in many situations right now, simply because a few of them have less obstruction than red dots, and you can aim just as well. It really shouldn´t be that way.

[Nielsen 10]

@InstaGoat:

Great post. Thanks.

Yeah, I guess it would make it much easier if the sight was like an "overlay" and not part of the models. I really like putting my rifle to my shoulder though. But I'd be willing to stretch pretty far to get a decent red-dot.

I've begone using weapons with lasers, as they're pretty much like a red-dot. Theyre not really working like lasers, and way more like the red-dots (the dot dont show on objects, and can be seen while aiming up in the air). It's just to bad that the laser dot only shows instead of the crosshairs, so I cant use it while having my rifle combat-ready.

I totally agree regarding the ironsights - it's really a shame.

Cool that you'll check to see if it have been suggested on DevHeaven. Let me know what you come up with.

[sakura_chan 9]

It would be really simple to make the dot transparent. Its just a texture so making the alpha channel different would make it transparent.

[Nielsen 10]

It would be really simple to make the dot transparent. Its just a texture so making the alpha channel different would make it transparent.

Just so I'm sure were on the same page, it's not the dot itself that needs to be transparent, it's the frame of the sight when aiming the weapon. I know nothing about moding, but I figure it's a little more complicated when the rifles are modeled, am I right?

[galzohar 31]

Yes, the problem is not making the actual dot transparent, but rather the entire sight model that is difficult yet important.

The problem of "the dot doesn't point where you aim but is a part of the sight model" is also a problem, though not nearly as significant, as after all whenever you're actually aiming it'll be centered anyway and when you're not aiming it's purely eye candy to have it fixed (as in, not visible when it shouldn't be).

[sakura_chan 9]

I see, you want to simulate having both eyes open when aiming? I'm sure that isn't possible, because you would have to make the whole rendered weapon a transparent layer. Arma can't do that yet. Simply making the weapon transparent is also impossible currently and wouldn't give a nice effect anyways. My suggestion: Wait a few years for 3d vision technology to come in full force, hopefully then BIS will release a patch for that :)

[Nielsen 10]

Yes, the problem is not making the actual dot transparent, but rather the entire sight model that is difficult yet important.

The problem of "the dot doesn't point where you aim but is a part of the sight model" is also a problem, though not nearly as significant, as after all whenever you're actually aiming it'll be centered anyway and when you're not aiming it's purely eye candy to have it fixed (as in, not visible when it shouldn't be).

Yeah I've noticed that to. But as you say it's not really a significant problem. I've never found myself annoyed by it during a firefight :). I would however love that being depicted more realistic to. But the main issue is the sight model. With the model at full opacity there is no point in using red-dots (pun intended :p).

EDIT:

I see, you want to simulate having both eyes open when aiming? I'm sure that isn't possible, because you would have to make the whole rendered weapon a transparent layer. Arma can't do that yet. Simply making the weapon transparent is also impossible currently and wouldn't give a nice effect anyways. My suggestion: Wait a few years for 3d vision technology to come in full force, hopefully then BIS will release a patch for that :)

Exactly... Oh, that's kinda discouraging. I figured it would be more or less impossible with the models. It is really such a shame. I just love this game so much, and the fact that I cant use a proper red-dot is killing me, or - more accurately - getting me killed :)

I'd be willing to settle for a solution like the ACOG without magnification, just to be able to use it properly. I hope someone releases a mod where that is possible.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Nielsen

[instagoat 133]

Hello again

I checked Devheaven, and this is the relevant ticket to the topic: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/5290

It says that BI themselves tried various solutions, so I´m a little reluctant to post the GUI Idea there.

I doubt that, if they searched for a way to fix this, they overlooked this solution. Should I post the suggestion on there nontheless?

Cheers

Insta

[Pain0815 10]

At 2.50 you see the eotech, its much better than the current a2 stuff. And this is Arma1. So it should be possible to make it better as it is atm.

M9AW6d-14kk

Edited March 26, 2010 by Pain0815

[instagoat 133]

At 2.50 you see the eotech, its much better than the current a2 stuff. And this is Arma1. So it should be possible to make it better as it is atm.

It worked in Arma, but it´s a far from perfect solution... At 3:36-3:37 you can briefly see the reticule floating in mid air as he´s reloading the gun.

In Arma 2 this trick doesn´t seem to work at all, and even in Arma 1 it was hit or miss. Some guns with proper collimators worked on my PC, and some gave me permanent floating reticules or dots even when not looking trough the gunsight itself.

If it can´t be done with textures, then it´s either leaving the sights alone altogether, or using UI red dots/reticules instead. Considering how important and widespread these sights are, and that most (if not all, and even those that do not really need them) other shooters get this right, it would be really nice to see Arma fix this up too.

[max power 21]

ArmA 2 has some kind of localize blurr effect. You can see it in some vehicles. Some parts of the vehicle will blur as you move around. It's especially evident in turrets where you can see the gun barrel through the sights. As you rotate the turret, the gun will blur... which is strange because the gun itself is static in the view, since the gun barrel is constrained to the sights. So, it is possible to blur objects but I don't know if it's possible to get the effect you desire. Extreme DOF blurring may also be possible.

[Deadfast 43]

In Arma 2 this trick doesn´t seem to work at all, and even in Arma 1 it was hit or miss. Some guns with proper collimators worked on my PC, and some gave me permanent floating reticules or dots even when not looking trough the gunsight itself.

ATI cards were immune to that "hack" if I remember correctly.

[Guest]

From my understanding, when using a scoped weapon the ingame view actually transitions when you aim down scope.

For example, on a large scoped rifle like the m107, the scope doesn't actually do anything until you right click to zoom in. Then the screen will fade black, and will fade in again with the new scope view.

Instead of having a scope fading back in, maybe a modder could have a realistic red dot fade in?

Just a though for our minds.

[max power 21]

From my understanding, when using a scoped weapon the ingame view actually transitions when you aim down scope.

For example, on a large scoped rifle like the m107, the scope doesn't actually do anything until you right click to zoom in. Then the screen will fade black, and will fade in again with the new scope view.

Instead of having a scope fading back in, maybe a modder could have a realistic red dot fade in?

Just a though for our minds.

Yeah, it's possible, like in the OFP days. Instead of 3d models, you'll have 2d plackards with cutouts of blurry guns on them.

[Nielsen 10]

Sorry for the late reply. I've been AFK for a couple of days.

Hello again

I checked Devheaven, and this is the relevant ticket to the topic: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/5290

It says that BI themselves tried various solutions, so I´m a little reluctant to post the GUI Idea there.

I doubt that, if they searched for a way to fix this, they overlooked this solution. Should I post the suggestion on there nontheless?

Cheers

Insta

That was a very informative post. The link to DevHeaven, and the link from there to an old thread here was very enlightening. I feel a bit stupid though, after seeing that you all have had this exact discussion before. I should have known, and searched a bit more thoroughly. Had I found and read that thread there wouldnt really be a need to make this thread. But then again, I guess it's a relatively important issue, that bears continued focus ;)

I think it's great that you take it up again. It's awesome that this game has such a dedicated community. You're propably right about BIS having thought about this, but I dont see no harm in suggesting it - just in case.

@all:

I must say that I'm really pleased to see so much positive and serious response on this. For my first post, with an obviously outdated question, I feel welcome in this forum. I think that is kinda rare on the internet, at least these days ;). Thanks!