Very Unprofessional Assassins

[Pathy 0]

It's called Identity Theft?

[walker 0]

Hi all

Pathy people can call all kinds of things all kinds of things.

I guess all will be revealed soon enough. :D

Kind regards walker

[Pathy 0]

Did you even read the article you posted, before you posted it? Or did you just see a story about someones passport being traced and jump into the thread waving the article above your head and yelling "See! Told you they were amateurs!" ("now they'll have to see i'm an expert!").

Now I think that would come under TRexian's definition of "Appalling" tradecraft.

The guy apparently looks nothing like the suspect.Now, i'm not saying it's not, but i'm not the one jumping in with an article rushing to conclusions (see above quote by yourself). Please explain how a spot of what looks like ID theft and spoofing someones passport makes appalling tradecraft. If anything, doesn't it do the opposite? (of course, I shall defer to your experience once you've explained...)

Edited February 16, 2010 by Pathy

[Scotty Boy 0]

Walker I have come to the conclusion your mind has run away with itself.

You are talking like your some sort of messiah on espionage. All you are doing is speculating.

Identity theft is rife, it really is no surprise. Who cares if they were captured on CCTV, once they are in country no one is going to recognise them.

You have formed your opinion on what you think you know with only half of the information, whereas you actually don't know anything about espionage or this event except what you have seen on TV, which lets face it is somewhat made up to entertain and any similarity to real events is a coincidence.

Whats next, you know that 9/11 was a conspiracy by the US government?

[TRexian 0]

Wow - a real Melvyn? :D I already knew that by a google search. :D

I'd bet a significant sum of money that he has an air-tight alibi.

And yeah, if you're going to forge a passport, not a bad idea to use one that belongs to a real person. As I understand it, the dates of birth are off....

[walker 0]

Hi all

Actually several of the UK Passports have turned out to be owned by people who live in Israel.

I will wait and see how well the faces on the original passport photographs held at the UK passport office compare to those at the Dubai passport control photocopies and the other images gathered of the assassins in the CCTV, all I have seen so far are passport photocopies held by Dubai, I have not seen the Dubai airport passport office boarding embarkation and disembarkation photos or any visa photos or indeed the UK originals. Or the Photos of the persons at their entry and exit ports. Before commenting on that aspect I would want to see each of them. I dare say that will come out as the investigation continues. As the journalists say this one has got legs.

Interesting that if the real passports of euro nationals are owned by Israeli nationals that in all cases their passports were cloned and all of them have cast iron alibis I wonder what the chances of that happening is?

I have analysed and commented only on what has been evidensed. This is a forum where one is free to comment analyse discuss and yes even "speculate" if you want to Scotty Boy.

If the alegation that Israeli Mossad may be using Israels Passport Control to clone the passports of UK and other nationalties passing through their channels and has caused the UK foreign Office to now investigate it disturbs you. That is not me, that is the British Government. They will also want to look into any conspiracy between a UK passport holder and others, to missuse a UK passport. Or indeed whether an agency out side the UK has been recycling its agents passports. Amazing what kind of stupid ideas arise when bean counter gets involved in such matters.

Of course it could be that Hammas has so infiltrated the Israeli Passport Office and Mossad that they can clone any passport in Israel. Hmmm...

Nor am I the only one who has said this looks like Amateur Hour it is being stated by several experts round the world and journalists quoting them.

I should point out that I have not stated one way or the other who I think the assasins worked for. I rather suspect that they may have been duped any way, and have pointed out that possibility several times already.

The Target's lack of counter surveilance makes me think this. That aspect just does not add up.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 17, 2010 by walker

[chops 111]

The dude's dead, mission accomplished. Time to go home and shag Katie Holmes.

[walker 0]

Hi Chops

Nah sorry mate it don't work like that.

If the assassins have been caught with their knickers on show for all and sundry to see; as I pointed out, that causes loads of ructions for the agency involved. 11 agents out of an agency of probably only hundreds is a big chunk of change. Add in spread to those agents and assets they have worked with these 11 in the past and it is in all honesty a worse disaster than any it may have fixed. This kind of episode has been known to cripple and kill an agency.

Then you have international repercussions if it is found that a country is cloning passports that go through their countries passport control.

In the UK for instance they will be looking at removal of dual nationality for passport holders of a country involved in cloning UK passports and identities in order to commit a crime.

Many countries may decide that you can only travel to a country that has been cloning passports on a one off travel document and cannot take a passport to such a country.

And that is before we get into other international matters like the very basic one of getting caught killing some one in another country.

The whole thing about a secret service is that is supposed to be secret, not flaunting its knickers like some two bit floozie. Deni-ability is a key aspect of a secret service when it ain't deniable it means that it is the Government who ends up carrying the can.

How can we negotiate with you if you are going to murder people in our country if we don't do what you say? Is the question that then arises along with all the results that fall from it.

As the saying goes: "Like Caesar's wife, a politician should be above suspicion." When they are not the sleaze tends to mount up like it did for the Cheney/Bush administration with predictable results.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 17, 2010 by walker

[mattxr 9]

They might have there faces weather the look like that or not! but it will be 100% thats there names are not those that were on there passports! not even amatures use there real names! that is what you call suicide.

I dont even use my real name when having a 1 night stand jesus.

[walker 0]

Hi all

For the moment assuming this was a Mossad lead killing, and I should point out I am not yet willing to state it is though like most I lean that way.

Then the prediction I made about the consequences of its amateurism are already starting to come to pass.

Last update - 03:53 17/02/2010

Amir Oren / Following alleged Dubai mess, the Mossad chief must go

By Amir Oren

An important figure with many followers goes overboard and gets exiled to a faraway village in the north. That creative solution comes courtesy of the rabbinical forum "Takana." But the sanction meted out to Rabbi Mordechai Elon should also be applied to another gentleman, who anyway already resides in the north: Maj. Gen. (ret.) Meir Dagan, the belligerent, heavy-handed chief of the Mossad.

The State of Israel did not claim responsibility for the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai. The entire matter is treated as AFMR - According to Foreign Media Reports. We can still argue both sides of the broader issue at hand: assassinating senior officials in hotels (see under Rehavam Ze'evi) and in public (Imad Mughniyeh, Fathi Shkaki, Abbas Mussawi, Ali Hassan Salameh, and the list goes on). But we could also narrow the question to the quality of the performance in Dubai. And what must have seemed to its perpetrators as a huge success is now being overshadowed by enormous question marks.

If the perpetrators were from the Mossad (AFMR, of course), Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu must be walking around with an acute sense of deja vu. Once again, an assassination of a senior Hamas leader in a friendly Arab country; once again, an operation designed to kill someone quietly and inconspicuously; once again, a diplomatic mess; and once again, it is all happening on Netanyahu's watch. In 1997, it was Khaled Meshal in Jordan. This time, it's Mabhouh in Dubai.

The anticipated diplomatic crisis is not, so far, with Dubai, but with the countries whose passports were used by the assassins. The United Kingdom and Ireland were used once again, and this time, a French connection topped it off. It is as if Israeli governments had never apologized to London for using British documentation; as if they had not promised solemnly, when passports of Her Majesty's subjects were found in a certain phone booth, that this would never happen again....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1150386.html

As always follow the link for the whole article in its true context.

As I pointed out in my first post in this thread this is exactly what I would have expected:

...If it was my Secret Service I would expect the head of the service on a platter and the government to fall...

As always follow the link for the whole article in its true context.

The complete failure to account for blow-back in this mission is frankly rank amateur.

The thing is that as I say I am almost convinced that this was a baiting operation. I think the organisation has been lead down the garden path to show their knickers. Possibly due to some internal or perhaps simply by having the wool pulled over their eyes by a more competent opponent

The fact that the target some one who has survived three previous attempts on his life and is supposedly a major asset of a multi million dollar organization with nation state support and supposedly training was wondering around without a counter surveillance or close protection team and not employing any counter surveillance methods just beggars belief.

I increasingly think these amateurs were duped, either by some one on their own side with political motive, or some one pretending to be an Allie or worst of all fed a worm on a hook by their opponents and they have swallowed it all hook line and sinker. If I were them I would check and see if the target had a terminal illness he was about to die from soon anyway.

Either way the benefits have not outweighed the cost.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 17, 2010 by walker

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

I think the earlier poster was right. They should have used the poison vial, or the piano wire.

[Takko 10]

At the end they shoul have used nothing

because its senseless

[Wull 10]

Walker, are you ever capable of putting your hands up and saying, 'yup sorry chaps, I ranted on there about something I didn't fully understand and now I realise that it looks like I'm full of it'. Or do you just assume that because you think something that it therefore must be fact and that the rest of the world is going to stop and lower itself to your half baked 6th form childish outlook on life.

'The target's lack of counter intelligence....'

Seriously, get a bloody grip. What the hell would you know about this guys security???????

I mean that with the utmost respect you understand.

Kind regards,

Hudjerma

The young think they know everything, the middle-aged think they know something and the old know they know nothing.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Wull

[Baff1 0]

They have killed their target and escaped.

The very idea that Israel will face "political repercussions" from Dubai is laughable.

What are they going to do?

The British Ambassador is going to lodge a formal protest because they used British passports.

Ooo. I bet that will make them sorry.

The end.

Another victory for Israel.

[walker 0]

Hi all

As predicted and pointed out the calls for the head of the security service on a platter are coming from the nation suspected's own media and citizenry. Embarrassing your nation by your secret service showing your knickers in public, perhaps even lead up the garden path by your opposition to do it, tends to do that. There are also now calls for government ministers to resign to be considered.

It is not just the actions that have to be considered; it is also the consequences.

It always amazes me how simplistically some people see such things, that it includes a nations security services is beyond stupid. Running around without caring for consequences is frankly childish.

As to what the countries who's sovereignty has been invaded will do:

1) Well first they will as always investigate it.

2) Then an ambassador of the nation that perpetrated the crime will be summoned by the government and presented with the evidence and asked to comment.

3) Depending on the evidence and the ambassador's comments and attitude there will be an immediate reprimand.

4) Followed up by a political cost for the nation involved.

Punishments being considered include:

a) Removal of dual nationality status.

b) Removal of ability to travel to the country on a full passport requiring a temporary travel document on all visitors

c) Trade sanctions

d) Visa restrictions

e) Travel restrictions

f) Increased surveillance

Blow-back is a standard factor that needs to considered in all operations. Failing to consider it is amateurish.

The problems for the nation involved is not that they killed someone, it is that they got filmed doing it, and thus tracked back in such a way as to preclude deniability. Allowing 11 of your agents to be photographed and filmed doing the dirty thus failing to prevent being tracked is amateurish.

Failing to consider that:

i) an oppositions leading asset of a multi million dollar organisation

ii) with nation state support and apparently training

iii) who has evaded death on three previous occasions

iv) on this occasion is without counter surveillance or close protection

v) and practices not a jot of the counter surveillance techniques he was supposed to be trained with

and thus might in fact be a worm on hook, and that the enemy might be feeding you the line is frankly amateurish.

When the opening is obvious it is often a trap. That Dubai came up with evidense so promptly, much quicker than either the US or UK did after the bombings, one is lead to the conclusion that somone was drip feeding them information.

It is not just an assassination mission it is a cost benefit analysis and on this one the costs outweighed the benefits.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 17, 2010 by walker

[Scotty Boy 0]

Who says they haven't considered all of the resulting factors? Unless you were a pillar in the planning process for it you don't really know anything about what they have considered.

And Dubai haven't been quicker, they have just gone to the media quicker than the UK or US.

All the information you have is speculative and/or fed from the media frenzy. Nothing is confirmed.

[Pathy 0]

I'd say to draw conclusions right now would be pretty......amateurish :D

[Wull 10]

Ahhh, I see what's going on here. You've got the wrong forum mate, I think you're actually looking for http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/54/t1470456-clue-cluedo/

[walker 0]

Hi all

Even former Mossad and CIA agents are now stating that the operation planners failed to consider the consequenses and further stating that the whole operation looked amateurish and sloppy.

The question being raised is whether the agency involved is out of control.

And the target:

i) an oppositions leading asset of a multi million dollar organisation

ii) with nation state support and apparently training

iii) who has evaded death on three previous occasions

iv) on this occasion is without counter surveillance or close protection

v) and practices not a jot of the counter surveillance techniques he was supposed to be trained with

That is the thing that most piques my curiosity.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 17, 2010 by walker

[Alex72 1]

I didnt read everything, but how the fudge did the agents (assassins) lock the door from "inside" and put the lock chain on? Some funky fiddling door kits?

[TRexian 0]

I didnt read everything, but how the fudge did the agents (assassins) lock the door from "inside" and put the lock chain on? Some funky fiddling door kits?

They were amateurs and got lucky....

[Herbal Influence 10]

As I already stated, I am not at all surprised by the probably correct analysis by walker done on the basis of facts delivered to the public.

Sure we don't know all - but by all you can read they failed in side aspects of it all.

How can anyone be surprised by the dumbness of decisionmakers since the start of the financial crisis?

There have been books predicting the crisis to come.

Well educated bankers and politicians bought "financial products" a simple man never would have bought.

The only explanation is: People are definitively less intelligent than we thought them to be.

In military operations it costs a thousands lifes, in secretservice operatons it costs a few mens life and in financial operations it costs billions of dollars (x 1,37 = Euros), millions of jobs, hundredthousands of lost homes.

We gotta wake up and think and decide ourselves.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Herbal Influence

[walker 0]

I didnt read everything, but how the fudge did the agents (assassins) lock the door from "inside" and put the lock chain on? Some funky fiddling door kits?

Hi Alex72

Technical equipment any organisation can manufacture.

I am no house breaking expert but the door chain is easy a simple wire arrangement will do it in some cases, here are some other methods off the top of my head, and if I can think of these in 10 minutes any organisation with decades to work on them will have them nailed down.

Glue of various sorts can cover a multitude of sins.

Set up

Option 1

Gain entry covertly

Simply remove the screws or bolts on the door jamb assembly of the chain latch

Take off the latch chain holder

Ream out the screw holes so the screws can be pushed home keeping the dust

Mix the dust with glue of desired setting time and consistency

Place screws back in the door jamb assembly and coat them with the dust glue mix

Clean up

With chain on the door

Pull the door semi closed

Slide the pre glued screws into the reamed out holes

Clean excess glue

Super glue the spot where door jamb and latch join

Affix the whole assembly on exit

Option two

Smash the door down

Gather up door parts and glue back in place

In all cases the damage to the door will be ascribed to the entry by the police or hotel security.

Where the door jamb is metal you need instead to snap the screws or bolts at a point close to the top but where when the police or hotel security beak down the door it would would break them, you then supper glue them back in position.

A similar process can be used on any surface mounted lock of the type you get in many hotels.

For those with a tight fit door chain fitting that cannot be moved or does not use screws or bolts and for internally latching door locks that are not surface mounted on wooden frame and door.

For internal lock doors simply replace the lug of a latch with a pre cut one then once again super glue is you friend.

Some newer plastic and alloy doors can be more complex, but in essence they are engineering problems for which there is always a solution.

Kind regards walker

Edited February 17, 2010 by walker

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Couldn't they just use the ventilation shafts?

[Scotty Boy 0]

They could have dressed up as cleaners and had a master key :O