Suppressive Fire, any luck?

[rotkeps 10]

Seemed to good to be true when seen in the patch notes so it was the first thing I jumped in on to test, not having any joy with it so far.

Maybe I'm just not understanding its actual usage here, but ordering my men to use suppressive fire is resulting in the same inaction as in previous version.

I tried:

- Ordering them to suppress anything, a house / empty car / open ground - nothing.

- I made a mission with an enemy soldier in my line of sight but way out of the light of sight of a squad mate... ordering him to suppress the known enemy location, he does nothing.

- Same mission this time with the enemy soldier in line of sight but far away - knowing the presence the AI wouldn't shoot anyway, using suppression.. still nothing.

- Dead enemy targets in line of sight also gets nothing.

So am I missing something glaringly obvious here? If its a case of only being able to be used upon living enemy targets that are also in line of sight, then they are being shot at anyway so why is suppression required? or am I simply bugged in some way and this is working in the above scenarios for everyone else?

Thanks.

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

Right I am picking up on pretty big problems here which I would like for someone else to confirm / deny. The AI soldiers seem to be having two very major issues, the 2nd might be related to the first:

1) Their aiming speed is painfully slow, talking here of the AI having to aim a few degrees either direction to have the shot and taking a very long time to do so, that mixed with a slight delayed reaction on firing is seem quite bad. Even on the highest skill setting this behaviour prevails.

2) When grouped on me, seem to prioritize remaining in formation / movement over killing enemy targets regardless of combat mode ... this means that during the agonizingly slow aiming most of the time they give up altogether to move 2 steps to the side then repeat the process, leaving them entirely unreliable.

As a further update:

- This isn't effecting all soldier classes, those using rifles seem mostly unaffected by the turn speed but still seem quite fidgity leading to (2) still being an issue

- Those using heavier weapons, in particular machinegunners, are useless, something definitly wrong here - rifleman instantly react, aim and shoot at the known enemy, machinegunners take around 5-10 seconds just to react, let alone start to aim, when they do start to aim it is subject to (1).

- Snipers also seem somewhat subject to this, I noticed that when spotted the snipers would stop, instantly react and shoot. Yay? If they miss they start acting exactly as machinegunners, they now start moving around alot not firing and when they do they show very poor reaction time and aiming speed.

Edited December 22, 2009 by rotkeps

[idiosis 10]

Installed 1.05 without issue and disabled Zeus AI;

My squadmates and I were assaulting an airfield in the Seal Team Six campaign, on the smaller island (Utes?) from the south end of the island with a clear LOS to two squads spread out across the airfield, but regardless of being set on disengage and 'no target' they went willy-nilly all over the shop refusing to regroup, with the 'engage' text above their portraits.

Irritatingly though they won't attack targets when I order them to :rolleyes: Maybe I've been spoiled by Zeus AI!

Suppression works ok though, at least for me it does.

[rotkeps 10]

How are you using your suppressive fire command may I ask? even if ordered to suppress a random position they fire?

[JuggernautOfWar 1]

Does Zeus AI work with 1.05?

[stun 5]

I can't get them to suppress objects or units either. I give the order and my character says "All, open up" but nothing happens.

[Bouben 3]

Installed 1.05 without issue and disabled Zeus AI;

My squadmates and I were assaulting an airfield in the Seal Team Six campaign, on the smaller island (Utes?) from the south end of the island with a clear LOS to two squads spread out across the airfield, but regardless of being set on disengage and 'no target' they went willy-nilly all over the shop refusing to regroup, with the 'engage' text above their portraits.

Irritatingly though they won't attack targets when I order them to :rolleyes: Maybe I've been spoiled by Zeus AI!

Suppression works ok though, at least for me it does.

Yes, I am also VERY interested in how is your suppresive command working :)

Because I think it actually isn't.

So, I am another one who can't get suppresive fire to work.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Uhm, I'm not even getting the oppurtunity anymore. I've had it during beta, I'm pretty sure of it. But not anymore. Is there anything special you need to do to get it?

Edit: Oh never mind. It was in the number menu, not the space menu...

And, it's working for me. Setup a west fireteam with you in control of it, behind some building.

Setup an east rifleman with no ammo (via ammo slider) and "this allowDamage false" in his init field.

Start and set all to hold fire. Get into position so you can reveal him to the rest of your squad.

Select the automatic rifleman and tell him to suppress. Then order him to fire.

It takes a hell of a time (!), but once the rifleman reacts, he will try to get out of there.

Once he clears some buildings, your suppressing automatic rifleman will continue to shoot where the rifleman was last seen.

That's how it works. Meaning, you cannot suppress an area or something that for the AI doesn't show up as a yellow square.

At 100m, my automatic rifleman wasted around 200 rounds before he started to hit the guy, who couldn't even shoot back, from standing up! I mean, wazzup with that? :D Hilarious, and quite worrying.

So, I did another test. A couple of opposing teams with two T90s and a T72 grouped together facing away from us. The M136 unit opened up and scored, but none of that tanks even reacted to it. We won over the AI team, but the tanks just sat there. I ordered my units to hold fire and stay put, and I was able to sneak up on two of the tanks. I could have satchelled them off if I wanted to. Crawling slowly onto the last tank, the two other was faced so that they couldn't avoid spotting me and finally killed me. Now, this is actually a good thing, unless they're actively scanning the area, since it allows stealthy approaches which is natural since AI can't hear shit from inside a tank. But just sitting there while being shot upon? Meh...

I'm guessing it's a result of us complaining about some magical abilities. Which is good. But, instead of a tank totally ignoring being shot upon or instantly knowing where the shot came from, I'd rather have it evade and search/scan the area. No commanders turret was ever in movement.

Edited December 23, 2009 by CarlGustaffa

[jasonnoguchi 11]

I was already getting these issues (not engaging, not regrouping and no suppressive fire on command) in the latest beta patch. I am surprised they released it as it is...sigh...

Guys, just go grab Zeus. the game has become unplayable without it. Without Zeus, you can put an enemy right in front of your squad mate and he probably take 5 to 10 seconds just to decide whether to shoot or not. In the past, i was able to strafe a LAV into an enemy camp as a driver and my AI gunner will go all hell on them very quickly but since the latest beta patch and 1.05, the AI gunner just kept reporting enemy positions and rarely fired even when put on "Engage at will".

SIGH!

Edited December 23, 2009 by jasonnoguchi

[Bouben 3]

Uhm, I'm not even getting the oppurtunity anymore. I've had it during beta, I'm pretty sure of it. But not anymore. Is there anything special you need to do to get it?

Edit: Oh never mind. It was in the number menu, not the space menu...

And, it's working for me. Setup a west fireteam with you in control of it, behind some building.

Setup an east rifleman with no ammo (via ammo slider) and "this allowDamage false" in his init field.

Start and set all to hold fire. Get into position so you can reveal him to the rest of your squad.

Select the automatic rifleman and tell him to suppress. Then order him to fire.

It takes a hell of a time (!), but once the rifleman reacts, he will try to get out of there.

Once he clears some buildings, your suppressing automatic rifleman will continue to shoot where the rifleman was last seen.

That's how it works. Meaning, you cannot suppress an area or something that for the AI doesn't show up as a yellow square.

I am sorry, but automatic (autonomous) suppressive fire was already there. And you didn't have to say anything to your AI mates. But what for is this command then?

EDIT: allright, got it working. But this kind of suppressive fire is quite useless. I mean, you can suppress last seen enemy soldier and that's all. You don't even need to bother about direction. Just press number of soldier, 3 and then 9 and he automatically starts to suppress somebody. At least these are my experiences now. I'll write more, when I test it more deeper.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Bouben

[rotkeps 10]

Still not got anything suppressive fire related to work, I'm just going to roll with it still being broken. Trying to concoct some bizarre scenario that would simply never occur just doesn't seem like a valuable endeavour. Nothing gained nothing lost though, better luck in 1.06 I suppose.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

I am sorry, but automatic (autonomous) suppressive fire was already there. And you didn't have to say anything to your AI mates. But what for is this command then?

EDIT: allright, got it working. But this kind of suppressive fire is quite useless. I mean, you can suppress last seen enemy soldier and that's all. You don't even need to bother about direction. Just press number of soldier, 3 and then 9 and he automatically starts to suppress somebody. At least these are my experiences now. I'll write more, when I test it more deeper.

Seriously, before 1.05, we don't even have to give any orders for the MG guy to suppress "last seen enemy".

[idiosis 10]

Nah sorry for the previous post, I've tried again since and suppression does diddly squat. I presume before they were just shooting at something at exactly the same time I was issuing a suppress order. :confused:

[stun 5]

This is seemingly what it is supposed to do: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Suppressive_Fire

I haven't been able to make this happen using the Suppress command in 1.05.

Edited December 23, 2009 by stun

[jasonnoguchi 11]

@Stun, thanks for digging up this excellent information!

Well, so we have here guys, the ANSWER: suppressive fire command makes the guys doing suppressive firing "fire more intensely". That's all. Even with no command given, suppressive fire will still be given by default but its just not that "intense". I can use the bullet saving...hehehehe

[stun 5]

I still can't get units to suppress an enemy if there is no direct line of fire in 1.05.

[Bouben 3]

@Stun, thanks for digging up this excellent information!

Well, so we have here guys, the ANSWER: suppressive fire command makes the guys doing suppressive firing "fire more intensely". That's all. Even with no command given, suppressive fire will still be given by default but its just not that "intense". I can use the bullet saving...hehehehe

Well, I can not imagine, how I can make some useful use of this kind of suppressive command.

I am quite disapointed, to be honest.

[7 0]

This is seemingly what it is supposed to do: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Suppressive_Fire

I haven't been able to make this happen using the Suppress command in 1.05.

The f**k? That's lame, yo. The least one would expect is a command to order AI units to suppress an area. But not even that?.. :confused:

[jasonnoguchi 11]

Yup, so we are now clear.

Suppressive Fire = Do what you have always been doing at your own timing and pace but using more bullets. :)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

No. AI will usually stop doing suppressive fire after a while. A rather short while. Keep issuing the suppress command and he will continue to suppress the last known AI spot for a very long time.

Suppressive fire is not only for machinegunners and automatic riflemen. Suppressed by a sniper? KSVK? Oh my god :) Or even better, an M242 bushmaster with HE rounds slamming into your cover wall. Needs to be scripted though, but very nice experience.

Why would you have someone suppress an area if you don't have positive confirmation than someone is there? The AI shifting around creates for me a sense of being smart about it. Not sure just "how" smart they are, if they do general direction you're pointing or anything they've witnessed.

Maybe we should have a different command for preemptive fire, where you actively deny an area to the enemy, even if there is someone there or not? Not sure if this is practiced by infantry though, as it is highly ineffective use of rounds compared to proper suppression. Preemptive might be used only for mortars and artillery, not sure.

Current implementation is probably not perfect, but a nice addition nonetheless. Scripters and modders have a "new toy", so I expect more special uses for it in the future.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

@Carl, what you are describing is clearly not what was being implemented. :) Try playing the game more without issuing the command and read the wiki release at http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Suppressive_Fire

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Ok, I should have written:

No. AI will usually stop doing "suppressive fire" after a while.

That kind of suppressing fire has nothing to do with the command to do so. That part happens automatically. The wiki only describes the commanded suppressive fire. The automatic version will stop rather quickly and he won't continue shooting unless the target makes himself visible again. That's what suppressive is for - to prevent the target from peeking out and check for other units flanking maneuver. Without the command, that won't happen, other than the built in very short period.

[stun 5]

I have finally managed to see the forced suppression command in action. It did the job, although I would like to see a suppress area command. Not sure why I couldn't get it working yesterday. I had a 2 v 1 scenario and the opfor guy just stayed prone for a long time after the suppression stopped. I got bored waiting to see if he would stand up. It would be interesting to be able to monitor opfor morale in realtime to see the effect of suppression.

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

I have tested the suppressive fire command (3-9) and I thought it worked relatively good. When the enemy disappears behind some hard cover, your selected squad member(s) will suppress the spot where he was seen last. It opens up new tactics.

The only problem is friendly fire, the automatic rifleman has injured/killed myself and others squad members several times already :D It seems as soon as the enemy is killed, he will immediately watch a new direction while still firing his machine gun : this sometimes results in a blue-on-blue.

I have finally managed to see the forced suppression command in action. It did the job, although I would like to see a suppress area command.

+1,

If it could work within the quick command menu (space+alt), it would be great. (maybe for a future patch ?...)

[jasonnoguchi 11]

@Stun, could you advise us of the exact steps you took to see suppression effect please? I would like to test that same scenario and see if its the command working or just the default AI working.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Yeah I agree. The actual pull on the trigger could be delayed a second or something. They will start shooting while rotating or changing stance, and yeah, I've had some casualties because of it.