Mid east

[ran 0]

just a question , does anybody knows the lyrics of the Hatik Vah ?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Aug. 15 2002,16:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">just a question , does anybody knows the lyrics of the Hatik Vah ?<span id='postcolor'>

Read The FAQ.

Back from vacation.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 15 2002,13:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am really amazed that we get this sort of thing in here, this is such I diverse place, It has made me realise hoe small the world is. How on earth can you take offence at someone flying their national flag?<span id='postcolor'>

If the world were that small, we'd be back to Mel Brook's 2000 year old man, when each cave had an anthem.

"Let 'em all go to hell - except cave 76!"

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Aug. 15 2002,10:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 15 2002,13:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am really amazed that we get this sort of thing in here, this is such I diverse place, It has made me realise hoe small the world is. How on earth can you take offence at someone flying their national flag?<span id='postcolor'>

If the world were that small, we'd be back to Mel Brook's 2000 year old man, when each cave had an anthem.

"Let 'em all go to hell - except cave 76!" <span id='postcolor'>

Paratrooper, did you know that in Auschwitz (Oswiencim) Poland, Jews took offence when Christian mourners put up a crusafix?

In this prisonner camp (or whatever you want to call the hell hole) Poles also died for helping Polish Jews. In return they are not allowed to put up their cross on their own land.

If anyone sees a good reason for this, I don't think I want to hear it!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Aug. 15 2002,17:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Aug. 15 2002,10:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 15 2002,13:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am really amazed that we get this sort of thing in here, this is such I diverse place, It has made me realise hoe small the world is. How on earth can you take offence at someone flying their national flag?<span id='postcolor'>

If the world were that small, we'd be back to Mel Brook's 2000 year old man, when each cave had an anthem.

"Let 'em all go to hell - except cave 76!" <span id='postcolor'>

Paratrooper, did you know that in Auschwitz (Oswiencim) Poland, Jews took offence when Christian mourners put up a crusafix?

In this prisonner camp (or whatever you want to call the hell hole)  Poles also died for helping Polish Jews.  In return they are not allowed to put up their cross on their own land.

If anyone sees a good reason for this, I don't think I want to hear it!<span id='postcolor'>

No, I didn't know that, I was talking about the forums really.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 15 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, I didn't know that, I was talking about the forums really.<span id='postcolor'>

Ah ok, I thought it was about someone putting their flag up somewhere in real life.

Still you learned something.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Aug. 15 2002,18:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Paratrooper, did you know that in Auschwitz (Oswiencim) Poland, Jews took offence when Christian mourners put up a crusafix?<span id='postcolor'>

Here's why.

As someone who has personally visited Auschwitz and has lost several relatives there, I can tell you that there is almost no indication of the fact that 85-90% of the 1.5 million people who died there were Jewish.

This includes no such accurate information (the words "many Jews" was used) being given by the official site guide who lead us through the camp.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Aug. 15 2002,19:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Aug. 15 2002,18:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Paratrooper, did you know that in Auschwitz (Oswiencim) Poland, Jews took offence when Christian mourners put up a crusafix?<span id='postcolor'>

Here's why.

As someone who has personally visited Auschwitz and has lost several relatives there, I can tell you that there is almost no indication of the fact that 85-90% of the 1.5 million people who died there were Jewish.

This includes no such accurate information (the words "many Jews" was used) being given by the official site guide who lead us through the camp.<span id='postcolor'>

Well i don't think it matters what race or creed they were, they were innocent living human beings. Being Jewish does not make the atrocity any better or worse. Murder is murder. The Beth Shalom Holocaust memorial museum opens to the public tomorrow in Nottinghamshire, if you can go you should. I went a few years ago with school, I spoke to a survivor of Dachow, a Hungarian. You'll learn a few thing there.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 15 2002,21:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well i don't think it matters what race or creed they were, they were innocent living human beings.<span id='postcolor'>

The only reason it makes a difference is because the Nazis chose to differentiate. Of course, all the victims are each a grievious loss.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Being Jewish does not make the atrocity any better or worse.<span id='postcolor'>

I never said otherwise, in case you thought I did.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Aug. 15 2002,13:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here's why.<span id='postcolor'>

Avon, there is no good reason, it's just wrong not to allow the crosses.

I agree with the numbers...

EDIT: ofcourse I have been there as well

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Aug. 15 2002,21:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Aug. 15 2002,13:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here's why.<span id='postcolor'>

Avon, there is no good reason, it's just wrong not to allow the crosses.<span id='postcolor'>

So let's leave it at we agree to disagree.

[Hostile 1]

"A teenage Palestinian, Nidal Abu M'khisan was shot dead on Wednesday night after being forced by Israeli soldiers to go to the door of a house sheltering a Hamas militant in Tubas.

Leading Israeli human rights group B'Tselem issued a statement denouncing the action, shortly before the army sparked fresh condemnation by shooting dead a five-year-old Palestinian boy.

.....

A number of government ministers told Israeli media that the country was in a war situation, and sometimes the lives of Palestinian civilians had to be endangered, to prevent attacks in Israel, or to protect Israeli soldiers."

news/bbc.co.uk

I'm sure the boy's parent's could see it that way.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Aug. 15 2002,15:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So let's leave it at we agree to disagree.<span id='postcolor'>

Why not.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Aug. 15 2002,22:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Aug. 15 2002,15:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So let's leave it at we agree to disagree.<span id='postcolor'>

Why not.  <span id='postcolor'>

Here's why (again).

[bn880 5]

What where? I see nothing. We have agreed.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A number of government ministers told Israeli media that the country was in a war situation, and sometimes the lives of Palestinian civilians had to be endangered, to prevent attacks in Israel, or to protect Israeli soldiers."<span id='postcolor'>

Just to point out, using civilians to protect soldiers sickens me. It blantently goes against everything I have ever been taught and believe in. The military should never hide behind civilians. Its own, or any other nations.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Before every one starts talking about soldiers here, I would like to remind you all that a thread has been started called 'the role of a soldier' this also includes discussion about using civilians deatsh to take the place of the deatsh of soldiers. This thread was created due to the discussion in the Hiroshima topic. The Hiroshima topic is locked now, but you may view what was posted This topic is a surviver, dont let it get the Denoir Happy Face closing treatment becasue it goes off topic.

[Chill 0]

Hey Kurtz!!! Guess who it is? starts with M??

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Yesterday I read that Isreal, in case of another attack by Iraq, would hit back wiht nuclear arms! Well the Middle East is a quite a bit away but I hope we can enjoy the firework even here! But as my father used to say: how can the state afford a firework if the economy is on its feet. Israel right now is facing another great problem, the total economical breakdown.!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hostile @ Aug. 15 2002,21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"A teenage Palestinian, Nidal Abu M'khisan was shot dead on Wednesday night after being forced by Israeli soldiers to go to the door of a house sheltering a Hamas militant in Tubas. -- BBC<span id='postcolor'>

If the Israeli army would be willing to have a teenage Israeli civilian approach the militant's house then their policy would not be racist.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hostile @ Aug. 15 2002,21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A number of government ministers told Israeli media that the country was in a war situation, and sometimes the lives of Palestinian civilians had to be endangered, to prevent attacks in Israel, or to protect Israeli soldiers." -- BBC<span id='postcolor'>

Around 400,000 Israeli civilians live in the occupied territories.  If the Israeli government could demonstrate any similar incidents of having endangered the lives of Israeli civilians  to prevent attacks in Israel then their policy would not be racist.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Merc you pirate!

get your ass onto MSN before I have you shot! And what do you have to do with the middle east? ITS TIME BOTH SIDES STOPPED BEHAVING LIKE SCHOOL CHIDLREN, AND GREW UP[ AND WORKED TOGETHER, BOTH TO SORT OUT THEIR DIFFRENCES, AND TO GAIN PEACE! WE DONT HAVE TO KILL! IF WE CAN WORK TOGETHER, PEACE SHALL RAIN FOREVER(or reign, both sound good )

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

"If the Israeli army would be willing to have a teenage Israeli civilian approach the militant's house then their policy would not be racist"

It would still be wrong regardless,

and to step out of the glass house- certain British units in Northern Ireland reportedly used similar tactics in the past, no no doubt the US in Vietnam and other countries have acted similarly.

Using civilians as cannon fodder seems to be (or have been) a common tactic where a military force does not respect or has little sympathy with the local civilians, and terrorist campaigns tend to ensure this is the case.

[Hostile 1]

The action itself is indefensible either morally or according to International and Human Rights laws (granted there's not a lot of complicity to any when it comes to this conflict).

Worldwide (with the possible exception of a few banana republics) the armed forces take an oath to protect civilian populations, it's not the Palestinian's "job" to protect the IDF.

The IDF is engaged in "a war" as they have stated themselves, therefore there shouldn't be a need to take along a collection of civilians to protect themselves.

I think it's speaks volumes as to how both sides have degenerated into hate and distrust and that the real need for third-party intervention is needed more than ever.

and as far as the IDF using Israeli Civilians to knock on the door of suspected individuals, let's face it there's not a great likelihood it would happen is there? and therefore it's a moot point.

don't get me wrong I live nowhere near that part of the world and I'm not flag waving for either "side". It "appears" to me however that the moral highground is somewhat ambiguous.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hostile @ Aug. 17 2002,17:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> ...and as far as the IDF using Israeli Civilians to knock on the door of suspected individuals, let's face it there's not a great likelihood it would happen is there?<span id='postcolor'>

I agree.  So it's a great pity that the IDF doesn't value all civilian lives equally the way that so many of our Israeli forum colleagues claim to.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Aug. 17 2002,14:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Using civilians as cannon fodder seems to be (or have been) a common tactic where a military force does not respect or has little sympathy with the local civilians, and terrorist campaigns tend to ensure this is the case.<span id='postcolor'>

Or perhaps it's the other way around.  Military forces using civilians as cannon fodder and not respecting or having little sympathy for local civilian populations tends to ensure the continuation of terrorist campaigns.