Mid east

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 20 2002,02:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont know if you follow the Champions League, but im a liverpool fan <span id='postcolor'>

It doesnt belong here! PLEASE MODERATORS; DONT CLOSE IT AFTER THIS COMMENT; I WILL STOP; PROMISED!

but the match against Liverpool was a good match! They impress me more than any other team, not because they play especially well, but because their supporters are known in Germany! There seems to be a great athmosphere in the stadium and they even cheer if the opponent made a good move! (Dont think I kiss your ass, you lost and thats it for your, see ya next time! Ouch, I shouldnt read the upcoming response to my comment, I should jsut ignore it!

Now I am back to the discussion!

[scout 0]

Albert. u actually triggered my memory on this.

i've checked and there is a whole paragraph that is quoted from a Cahana leaflets that are hanging just outside my workplace, the person is the second man to Meir Cahana (murdered in N.Y.). but again i dont know. altoughim gonna dig in the archives in israel. this one i want to check thoroughly!

[KingBeast 0]

Im talking to an Israeli girl on ICQ right now, and it is horrible to see that she is completely unwilling to admit any wrong doing on behalf of the Israelis. She even thinks Sharon is a saint!

Its been the same with the last 5 or 6 Israelis I spoke to.

Scout, would you openly criticise your country for any of its wrongdoings?

[scout 0]

depends what u want me to refer to.

i dont say we're saints, and i dont say we've done everything right, but then again i view the PA, and its leaders as the responsible for the last 2 years.

i want also to turn your attention that in the eve of elections sharon got 50%~ of the votes and only because Peres was the other candidate. actual support of sharon was 25%~

now more then 85%~ support him. what do you think caused this? and as i asked before, what caused more then 60% of the public to go from left to right?

[KingBeast 0]

When one wins wars, public support increases hugely. For instance, thatcher and the falklands. Bush and Afghanistan.

Actions speak louder than words. Sharon makes things happen, thats al lpeople care about. The yfeel secure that they are doing something, desptie the fact that the results arent going to be very nice in a couple of years (ie huge increase in suicide bobmers would be my guess)

[scout 0]

ur right and ur wrong.

the whole process of moving of the public from left to right has been done in the years 1993-2002. that was because of continueos actions done by the PA.

the statistic ive brought up was taken PRIOR pass-over. in the midst of it, it was 93(!%.

so it really was a sense of helplessness felt by many israelis.

if u want me to refer to any wrongs u think we've done pls feel free to do so.

edit: where the heck did that facce come from??

[Guest]

I bet that you can see the same demographics in the Palestinian community; that Arafats popularity has shot through the roof since the start of the infantiada.

[scout 0]

the problem is that Sharon is facing elections in the next year, and if israelis will feel that there is a chance for peace, he wont get elected again, but a more moderate leader.

Arafat on the other hand really doesnt care, he'll lead till the day he dies. and thats the main difference. the ppl in israel gave peace a chance by selecting Rabin and Barak, while Aradat was and still is the leader. the change to sharon came after israelis decided there is no hope in the moderates.

so i say, if Arafat really wants to arrive a solution, he will act in order to bring back the popularity of moderates, which also leads to a question: did Arafat REALLY wanted a peaceful solution?

[theavonlady 2]

Here's another Israeli girl who has almost nothing against Sharon's actions except that they were a year and a half late and they excessively risked the lives of IDF soldiers (23 died in Jenin) in order to minimize the risk to civilian casualties.

Now you can all go on with your rants and raves.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 20 2002,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here's another Israeli girl who has almost nothing against Sharon's actions except that they were a year and a half late and they excessively risked the lives of IDF soldiers (23 died in Jenin) in order to minimize the risk to civilian casualties.

Now you can all go on with your rants and raves.<span id='postcolor'>

Not tonight! It is spring-time and I have this emotional drive to talk to girls tonight! Politics can rest till tomorrow!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 20 2002,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here's another Israeli girl who has ....<span id='postcolor'>

Why do you call scout a girl! How rude...

I must admit, Avon, without meaning it evil: Sometimes I ask myself where in your postings I could find indicators for 'caring human emotions' (yes something like this exists). You often sound very cold heartet and it appears you have a heart time to develop sympathy for your enemy. You often post very intelligent, logical and informative comments. But due to this lack of 'emtional background' they dont have the impact they could have on me.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 20 2002,02:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Im talking to an Israeli girl on ICQ right now, and it is horrible to see that she is completely unwilling to admit any wrong doing on behalf of the Israelis. She even thinks Sharon is a saint!

Its been the same with the last 5 or 6 Israelis I spoke to.

Scout, would you openly criticise your country for any of its wrongdoings?<span id='postcolor'>

Good point...

Just see how the Americans still cant see any wrong in what they have been doing the last 30 years

[Gaswell 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 19 2002,22:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and they excessively risked the lives of IDF soldiers (23 died in Jenin) in order to minimize the risk to civilian casualties.<span id='postcolor'>

Y'know, it's hard to take people seriously when they say shit like this and make it sound like they mean it. Sure you're not out trolling, Avon? If not, it's just... sad.

[scout 0]

yes GASWELL its serious, and if u knew HOW dangraous is to fight CQB, that the americans and british troop didnt enter Kandahar because of that reason u're either dreaming or u dont know shit about warfare.

what u probably forgoten (and i'll help u to remember! is that they boobytraped the whole place, never mind about the families, they also booby trapped the mosques and churches (the Maria Church in beth lehem was booby trapped by more then 200 Lb of explosives) in order to show that we did it all, but the fact is that most of the ruins was caused by THEIR explosives. and if u would think a bit u'll see that if we didnt care we could just napalm the whole thing. want an example? take Chechnia - 100000 civvies dead, use of Artilley and aircraft with no regard. why dont you boycott them too? send in UN troops? or maybe any other thing you are offering?

What about sending a UN commision to investigate the INTENTIONAL PRE PLANNED MURDER of civilians on our side?

how about you boycotting the PA about their involvement of these acts?

how about admitting that when you booby-trap your own houses they can be blown up?

NO one found any evidence about a massacre, all evidence show an intentional mining of the whole city by the pals (just ask the medic that got hurt by a pal charge)

yet you all already take it at face value.

the IRC asked the IDF to dismantle these booby traps and the explosive belts that are still on the bodies of the dead gunmen.

our men entered the cities without firing without being fired in order not to hurt civvies.

a company CO was shot dead and his men were unable to retrieve gim for 4 hours because he was shooting between civvies. the soldiers had to close up in order to kill him,

3 tanks could finish the job but didnt fire 'cause of this.

REMF!

[Major Fubar 0]

Backwards and forwards, and back again.

Face it, neither side is in the "right" here.

Suicide bombing of civilian targets is wrong.

So is moving in the military to disperse civlians and take their land.

Pull up all the facts, figures and quotes you want, what it really boils down to is both sides are too arrogant to back down and talk compromise.

Until this happens, both sides are going to keep killing each other, and claiming to be the good guys.

What amazes me is that it has taken Western media/public this long to look at this conflict in a deeper aspect than the "good" Jews fighting the "evil" Muslims. (This is not me taking sides, but showing how I despise mainstream media and the messages they send us).

As sorry as I feel for the innocents killed in this conflict, until both sides can moderate their hate for each other nothing will be resolved.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ April 22 2002,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So is moving in the military to disperse civlians and take their land.<span id='postcolor'>

mind telling me how do you know it? where did you get it from?

where are all those settlers? they should be out there visible.

do you know about any village that our army "confiscated"?

in the last op, no civvies were evcuated from any village and no settlers cought their place. be accurate please.

edit: Oh, u didnt watch BBC for the last years, havent you?

[Major Fubar 0]

Always a negative response. Always "my side is right". This debate is pointless, did you read the rest of my post? Did you see I am not "picking sides". Do you disagree the only way to resolve this is through compromise?

I think your response proved exactly the point I was trying to make in my post.

BTW, do you deny Israel is trying to take back land from the Palestinians? If they are not, I'm afraid I've missed the whole point and cause of this conflict.

[Longinius 1]

"Ungefär samtidigt, sent pĺ mĺndagskvällen, kastade israelisk polis ut nio palestinska familjer frĺn hus i östra Jerusalem som judiska bosättare gör ansprĺk pĺ, sade israeliska och palestinska källor till AFP."

Yes, this is Swedish. What it says is that late monday night Israeli police evicted nine Palestinian families from buildings in eastern Jerusalem because Israeli settlers had laid claim to those buildings. I thought you were saying Palestinians werent moved for the benefit of Israelis?

[Gaswell 1]

@scout:

CQB being dangerous sounds like a pretty lame excuse for being heavy-handed in civilian areas. Of course it is dangerous. If you're brave or stupid enough to become a soldier you implicitly accept the risks involved in your line of business. Not so for civilians.

As for "terrorists"/"criminals"/"partisans" (or any similar political word) making your CQB dangerous - you knew what you were getting yourself into when your elected leaders sent the IDF into booby trap heaven. You can be pretty sure that your military leaders estimated the number of soldiers killed, as well as the number of civilians killed, and found the numbers to be acceptable. If the death tolls on both sides are getting too high for comfort, maybe you should question your military and political leadership instead of blaming the Palestinian gunman who probably fights back with the same belief that his cause is just as you do.

Mentioning Chechnya is a dirty trick, and not really comparable if you wanna talk international law or political/regional background. But I agree that the Chechnya conflict hasn't gotten nearly enough attention, especially compared to your never-ending self-destructive poorly-handled Middle East conflict. Why are you even mentioning Chechnya? Is it a threat, such as "look how nasty we could have been"? Is it an attempt to compare favourably to someone, like "at least we didn't commit genocide like these guys"? Yes, I agree that compared to the Allied bombing of Dresden you're bonafide saints. However, I still think you should have tried harder to avoid uneccessary damage and deaths.

In fact, the Norwegian UN envoy Terje Rřd-Larsen said a similar thing, and for some reason this has earned him a surprising amount of flak from the Israeli side. Now why is that, exactly?

I'd love to see the UN go into the conflict to lead negotiations, to observe a cease fire, and to investigate the recent events, but last time I heard the Israeli government strongly objected any investigation and had a hard time complying to UN resolutions. It's good to hear that you support an UN investigation, scout.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 23 2002,09:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, this is Swedish. What it says is that late monday night Israeli police evicted nine Palestinian families from buildings in eastern Jerusalem because Israeli settlers had laid claim to those buildings. I thought you were saying Palestinians werent moved for the benefit of Israelis?<span id='postcolor'>

yeah, let me add some things your paper seemed to "forget":

the pals are israeli citizens.

the land owner, a israeli-arab sold the land to some israelis.

the ppl living there, were noticed 2 years in advance to evacuate the area.

they have gone to court, but as the houses and land were sold, there was no legal base for any law suit.

but i guess because they were pals and the ppl that bought the land were jews gave an exellent excuse to bash us after no evidence of any "massacre" could be shown by the pals, no?

major fubar, i just gave u another point of view thats all.

GASWELL:

thats a really good excuse. lets not go after terrorists because ppl might get hurt. lets not stop iraq because there is a risk of iraqi ppl getting hurt in the process (and they did, didnt they?), lets not engage any threat that is sheilding himself in the midst of civilians because they might get hurt.

let us get killed and not move a finger in our defence right?

WRONG. our leadership DIDNT send suicide bombers into civilian areas, our leadership DIDNT send gunmen in order to kill civilians, our leadership DIDNT promote the killing of palestinian no matter who they are. so your accusation that we elected a leader ship and then violence errupted is wrong.

check the dates.

the violence started in end of sep. 2000 and elections were only couple of months later.

and sharon has to thank Arafat for his elections. he wouldnt be elected unless Arafat opened fire.

and why cant I compare Chechnia? what the difference? makes you uneasy? just compare the casualties.

and any way i was bringing it as a military comparison. i say that our troops checked fire far more then any other country.

find yourself a colonel, a captain in the infantry, ask them. maybe they'll explain you.

yes we could enter wearing flowers and straw skirts, but i doubt it'll do a thing other then make em laugh for a while.

its a pitty no news letter bothered writing the interview of a reserve doctor who was in Jenin, all through the fight. you tell him that the action was too brutal, he'll slap you shitless.

as i said. NO army EVER endagered more his soldiers in order not to hurt civvies. and he succeeded. almost all civvies dead are of the result of boobytraps made by pals.

its very comfy to criticise and say we could be more mild in the couch when you dont know even 1% of what the figthing been like, and how our soldiers sacrificed themselves.

i dont think u've any other better solution. and i'm willing to bet most of you wont jump over your head calling vengence if only a fraction would happen to you.

you preach for tolerence, for us to hold our fire, to accept our losses, yet you dont do even 1% to any other country that uses much more force then we do.

germany is broadennig its trade with russia, a country that used, aerial bombardment, heavy artillery, ans such, and caused 100000 civilian casualties. and boycott us when we respond after 18 of being bloodied. u wonder why we think europe has double standarts? here is your answer.

you couldnt hear a word from europe when suicide bombers exploded amongst us, but the minute we lift a finger, we're being compared to the nazis.

so forgive me if i hold any resentment.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

And all our yesterdays have lighted fools ,

The way to dusty death.

Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more:

it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing.

-W.Shakespere

Enough!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

-!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

So, noone will be able to check what happened in Jenin! How trustworthy! Okay then, who is gonna take the bet? I assure you that the Isrealian court will announce (after a long and intense investigation of course) that each and every death in jenin is justifiable and only terrorists were harmed!  

[KingBeast 0]

Ah would seem Israel are delaying the UN investigation into Jenin. Just a little bit suspicious no?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 24 2002,02:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ah would seem Israel are delaying the UN investigation into Jenin. Just a little bit suspicious no?<span id='postcolor'>

If it will be allowed in the end at all! Anyway, what is it worth, a delayed investigation?