Mid east

[Longinius 1]

"Yes, civilians have been killed. But I doubt that it was on purpouse, at least not officially. What the individual soldiers/commanders do is another question. As scout pointed out, if they were out to kill everybody then this would all go to a very quick end."

Yeah. But like I said, they can't very well do that because the world is watching.

On the other hand, they dont seem to go any great lengths to NOT kill civilians either.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 17 2002,09:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is an obvious lie since you HAVE fired on journalists for example. And on civilians, as shown in newspapers all over the world. I am thinking of the picture showing two dead people in a home, one elderly woman and one man. They were shot by the IDF through the door.<span id='postcolor'>

did we fire live bullets on journalists...no!

were the house of these ppl was used as a shooting post.....probably, almost certainly. there is no shooting spree around here.

and maybe that the problem. u see only picture, a scene nothing that happened before, after, if it was fabricated or not

all u see is a frame of a film. handed to u by some1 whose objectivity is unknown.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 17 2002,09:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"

On the other hand, they dont seem to go any great lengths to NOT kill civilians either.<span id='postcolor'>

how possibly can u know? u judge pretty quickly without enough data, i say ur wrong and its pretty insulting, its the same as Avon saying that all the europeans want to snuff us out.

[Longinius 1]

"did we fire live bullets on journalists...no!"

Blanks rarely leave bulletholes.

[Markov 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Markov @ April 17 2002,08:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 17 2002,08:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if we would target everyone, we would end it really fast.........really fast!<span id='postcolor'>

. . . LOL <span id='postcolor'>

What I should say is that : Do ya think Americans can just start targeting all Mexicans? and expect no financial & services loss. Same with Israel, it cannot target all Pals, because it will loose the majority of it's infrastructure and labor services.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 17 2002,09:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"did we fire live bullets on journalists...no!"

Blanks rarely leave bulletholes.<span id='postcolor'>

but rubber, plastic and sand do! and they are legit riot control weapons!

[Longinius 1]

"how possibly can u know? u judge pretty quickly without enough data,"

Not really. Using tanks and missiles to take out terrorists located in densely populated areas lead me to believe that the respect for the civilians, their lifes and their property isnt really a concideration. Attempting to kill a suspected terrorist by firing a missile at his car, while travelling with his family on a busy street, isnt really contradicting it either. To bulldoze entire neighbourhoods in search of terrorists is not really good for your cause either.

"i say ur wrong and its pretty insulting, its the same as Avon saying that all the europeans want to snuff us out."

This is such other bullshit. Just because I get upset when I see a democratic government, claiming to do the right thing, kill civilians does not mean I am...

1. Antisemetic

2. Want to kill jews

It simply means that I am sick of the hypocricy and the lies. Just admit to what is going on, round up all Palestinians and throw them out. Then stand up to what you have done. Stop beating about the bush about it.

[Longinius 1]

"but rubber, plastic and sand do! and they are legit riot control weapons!"

Are those fired with machineguns from tanks? Are those fired by snipers?

Since when is a car with two journalists a riot?

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 17 2002,09:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"but rubber, plastic and sand do! and they are legit riot control weapons!"

Are those fired with machineguns from tanks? Are those fired by snipers?

Since when is a car with two journalists a riot?<span id='postcolor'>

how do you know? did u see it?

if these two decide to break into area of op they will be forced out without harming them.

i again say, u make many allegations but u dont seem to base em.

it really is like the time u shouted all over the place:"ethnical cleansing, arial bombardment. its really outa taste and baseless.

[Guest]

I think that the current operations that Israel is conducting are wrong because they kill off any chance of a decent peace deal. On the other hand Israel has to defend itself against the terrorist acts. It feels and is threatend and must do *something* to assure its citizens that there is still law and order in the country. Very few condemned the American bombings of Afganistan, where a whole lot of more civilians were killed. Having said that, I still can't see what the current Israeli military operations can achieve, except for creating another generation of suicide bombers that grow up in these conditions.

[scout 0]

i didnt say that u hate jews or anything like it, isaid u rush into conclusions based on very small number of fact.

but what i see is that no matter what we'll do unless we take it quietly it wont be enough

and thats out of the question!

[scout 0]

anyway, im off to bed, been a long night.

[Longinius 1]

"how do you know? did u see it?

if these two decide to break into area of op they will be forced out without harming them.

i again say, u make many allegations but u dont seem to base em."

They were fired on when TURNING BACK. Not from behind, or from the side, but from the front.

"it really is like the time u shouted all over the place:"ethnical cleansing, arial bombardment. its really outa taste and baseless. "

I still believe that a form of ethnical cleansing is going on in Israel. When you force one kind of people away from an area, to give place to another people, you are cleansing that area.

I have never shouted about arial bombardment though. I dont know where you got that one from.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 17 2002,08:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it really is like the time u shouted all over the place:"ethnical cleansing, arial bombardment. its really outa taste and baseless.<span id='postcolor'>

It's hard not to, when Avon advocates 'population transfer' as a valid solution.

Perhaps one other thing is worth taking in consideration: Swedish media is very pro-palestinian and has always been. This is because the ruling party in Sweden (social democrats) have historicaly good realations with the PLO.

It is quite interesting, I mailny follow the news from two sources - CNN and Dagens Nyheter. Their reporting could not be more different, with CNN being pro-Israel, while DN is pro-Palestinian. You get two entirely different perspecitves of the situation, and I tend to think that the truth lies somwhere in the middle. Another thing is that a couple of Swedish reporters were shot at yesterday by the IDF, and that doesnt give any popularity points.

[Gaswell 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 16 2002,09:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">how do you know? did u see it?

if these two decide to break into area of op they will be forced out without harming them.

i again say, u make many allegations but u dont seem to base em.<span id='postcolor'>

The story from SVT:

SVT-journalister beskjutna i Ramallah

An article from a Norwegian newspaper:

Norsk fotograf beskutt pĺ Vestbredden

Describes how the news team, having turned around after overhead warning shots from a tank, was fired upon from 15-20m. One shot went through the vehicle. The article also mentions that the Swedish correspondent speculated whether they've been shot at with rubber bullets, since the only shot to actually penetrate the car went through a window.

Rubber coated steel bullet can easily kill, and have done so on several well-documented occasions. I don't really care whether the IDF threw wet paper towels; they shouldn't fire at civilians.

And as a comment to your remark, "did u see it":

It's very hard to get a proper picture of what's happening, because the IDF is keeping the international media out of the loop by force, threats and intimidation. In fact, I would think it's pretty hard for the average Israeli to know what's actually going on, too, because I have a slight suspicion that Israeli media aren't invited along for the ride.

[Longinius 1]

"Describes how the news team, having turned around after overhead warning shots from a tank, was fired upon from 15-20m. One shot went through the vehicle. The article also mentions that the Swedish correspondent speculated whether they've been shot at with rubber bullets, since the only shot to actually penetrate the car went through a window."

They found two bullets. One penetrated the back window and got stuck in some camera equipment in a backpack. The other went through a door and got stuck in the car itself.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 17 2002,05:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">by the way, the red cross has a local branch, which is composed from locals and as such have always delievered false data, the best example is the ambulances.<span id='postcolor'>

Now seriously, this is rude! This organisation saves life all over the world. And it can look back at decades of incredible work.

However they only can do so because they act fully independant from any party or government: It is highly arrogant to accuse such a glorious organisation without any proof just with a simple assumption.

If ever the case occurs that the Israeli army fires at a Red-cross ambulance I will definetly quit all my sympathy with Isreael. The same would be true for any country.

[scout 0]

were they were 5.56 mm? did they see who shot at them? were they in the middle of some kind of gun fight?

gaswell- the thing u dont appriciated is that most of the ppl my age are there right now, and they have cell phones and we just happen to talk amongst us, and they tell me just how it is going on there.

longinius - where are forcing them out? to jordan? to egypt? to lebanon? the answer is not, agreed? so where are they being moved to? thats pretty much sums your claim doesnt it?

do u see jewish settlers in Jenin? or anywhere else?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Markov @ April 17 2002,08:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You know in Kosova, the muslim terrorists (they were attacking Serb police often, which caused the 'ethnic cleansing' dressed their KIA members in civilian clothing, and they removed all weapons/camo stuff...to make it look like they were being killed by Uniformed 'nazi' Serbs.<span id='postcolor'>

You didnt learn much did ya? Still thinking poor old Serbia was attacked by the evil Nato for nothing? YOu were doing ethnical cleansing because they attacked your police? Well, That is an argument, (NOT)!

I agree, you know Germany was a beautiful peacful country too during WWII and we were just killing Jews because they were always so unfriendly and we wanted to have smiling faces on our roads! Why did the Allies attack us! I see no reason!

I mean you didnt explicitly say it, but I am convinced that you are still believe that Serbia was treated badly by the NATO and much of the slaughtering has only been NATO-propaganda!

[Longinius 1]

"If ever the case occurs that the Israeli army fires at a Red-cross ambulance I will definetly quit all my sympathy with Isreael. The same would be true for any country."

That has allready happened. A couple of days ago IDF soldiers fired at a Swedish group of red cross workers.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,155854,00.html

The man in that image is Graham Leman, he is the Red Cross chief of logistics for the Westbank. In that image, he is walking out into an open street in defiance, shortly after an IDF sniper has fired a shot. His vehicle has three bulletholes in it allready and he says in the article that it is not unusual for the IDF to fire on Red Cross vehicles.

"were they were 5.56 mm? did they see who shot at them? were they in the middle of some kind of gun fight?"

Dont know the caliber. They had gotten clearance to be in the area but not approach Arafats compound. They were driving past the compound, in the outskirts (where they were allowed to be) when a tank fired warning shots at them. They stopped, turned the car and headed away. Then they were fired at yet again as they were leaving.

"longinius - where are forcing them out? to jordan? to egypt? to lebanon? the answer is not, agreed? so where are they being moved to? thats pretty much sums your claim doesnt it?

do u see jewish settlers in Jenin? or anywhere else? "

No, but I see several Jewish settlements in Palestinian areas. I see no settlements in Jenin though because if there were any they wouldnt last long.

[scout 0]

do u mean the settlement Tel-Aviv? or Hadera too?

were these settlements u relate to were built on ground that was taken recently? and if they arent being moved, and no one takes their place, it takes some of the sting of youor claim, leaving u with some hollow propaganda stuff

[Gaswell 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 16 2002,16:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">were they were 5.56 mm? did they see who shot at them? were they in the middle of some kind of gun fight?<span id='postcolor'>

I only know what I have read and heard on the Norwegian and Swedish news, and AFAIK there's been no mention about calibre, only that it's likely that rubber coated steel bullets were used. The news sources refer to the shooter as an Israeli "sniper", or "soldier", standing 15-20m away from the car. The incident happened in an area controlled by the IDF, and there's been no mention of an ongoing fight in the area.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 16 2002,16:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">gaswell- the thing u dont appriciated is that most of the ppl my age are there right now, and they have cell phones and we just happen to talk amongst us, and they tell me just how it is going on there.<span id='postcolor'>

Your friends have my heartfelt sympathies for the hardships they're going through, and I sincerely hope they're doing OK, but I doubt they're in a position to give an unbiased view of the situation. And if they are, why not let the international media in to verify their stories?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

In fact I know how hard the situation is for the Isreaeli, and especially the soldiers. I would be hyper cautious too. But then again there are incidents where I ask myself: Is that realy necessary? " And I see pictures where I would say: "no, this definetly is not necessary and has nothing to do with war against terrorism!"

[scout 0]

i agree that they point of view is what they see from their side, but if extreme things happen, no matter how u twist it, it just wont do, no?

they are soldiers, reservists who were called to the army, and they have the means to defend themselves. the media doesnt and the most known case is that of an arab cameraman who just filmed near a palestinian sniper.  now, ofcourse our men have small personal tv's with them right?.....he got injured because he was standing near a gunman, without trying to distance himslef from them.

BTW. ive checked with some pals of mine, i dont know if its the same incident, but they told me that some guy got out of an ambulance and started walkin towards them, and when they challanged him he didnt stop.  so they shot near him rubber bullets to make him turn around cause that was just the way suicide bombers acted recently, they called him to stop and wiat there 4 inspection, he refused and turned around. thats one case. now there werent many cases when an ambulance evaced ppl, he didnt try to evac some gunmen or ammo with it.

edit: albert, do they show on tv how they try to break through? how they are cursing and spitting on the soldiers?

how they ignore soldiers challanges to stop and be inspected? how they ignore the fact that they sit with palestinian gunmen and then wonder why they are being shot at?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

We see a lot of images here even though they are restricted to film, and believe me, the media dont show it only from one point of view. But you must understand that being a journalist and being attacked like this may influence your sense journalistic-independance, you may be angry at those soldiers and therefore  reflect this through the articles and films they publish.

THis journalist is from the Reuters agency (dont need to say more) he was filming the Arafats 'palace' when two jeeps approached him, chased him, and threw shock grenades at him. He has serious problems with his ears since then.

Of course you may assume him to be a terorist since he has got dark hair and looks like a palestinian. But if the soldiers thought he would be a terorist, why didnt they shoot or capture him but let him run away? That doesnt make no sense. They knew he was a proper journalist (no terorist can afford a camera like this, this is worth about 20 AK's). I dont even know if Arafats palace is within the 'forbidden zone' of the press! This is a very rude and arogant behaviour and does not realy help to improve your global reputation. And of course it awakes the impression: the Israeli dont realy care what the press sais about them. they do what they want!