Mid east

[scout 0]

so long!

[Major Fubar 0]

forget it

[Longinius 1]

"isnt it a war? when an authority is funding and sponsoring terror, how else do you call it? its a war against a terrorist authority! didnt you hear a thing?"

Those exact arguments can be turned around and used by the Palestinians you know.

Anyway, scout, if you are right and there was no massacre at Jenin... Then why were not UN aid workers and observers allowed to go in? Why are they STILL not allowed to enter?

Don't give me "for their own security" bull because they are aware of the risks, its part of their job, and they STILL want to go in. If Israel has nothing to hide, why stop them?

[Oligo 1]

I saw a documentary last night in which they had an interview with an israeli official who is in charge of making popular opinion samplings. She pointed out that 70% of israelis currently think that 100% of the West bank and Gaza should be given to the pals IF there would be peace after that. Furthermore she stated that more than 50% of israelis currently think that the settlers are a bunch of hicks.

If she is correct, there might still be hope in the Middle East, since most of the israelis seem to think that Lebensraum policies are wrong.

They also had an interview with some Israeli university professor. He made an interesting analogy to the 'give them 95% of the land' plan that some people in these forums seem to think of as fair and square: Think of a prison. There the inmates have 95% of the territory, but still the walls and bars (making just 5%) are owned by the real masters and these are what matter.

We have heard way too many right-wing statements in this thread. makes you wonder what sort of people OFP attracts.

[Gaswell 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 23 2002,03:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW. want to comment about the statement that the Berlin police said it cant defend jewish citizens, and they better hide their jewish identity?<span id='postcolor'>

Sure do. In this article the statement you mention is said to come from a radio station controlled by the IDF. The Berlin police spokesman Lars Sunnman is mentioned as the source.

However, the article also claims that there's no Lars Sunnman at the Berlin police department. A spokesman for the department states that this message is a "lie" and that "we'd never make such a statement".

If there really was a Lars Sunnman representing the Berlin police and he really did make these statements, wouldn't you think Mr. Sunnman would find himself out of a job before you could even say "recent German history"?

[Gaswell 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 22 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">thats a really good excuse. lets not go after terrorists because ppl might get hurt.

<span id='postcolor'>

No, by all means go after terrorists, just don't use a sledgehammer where it will do more harm than good. I'm not talking only about collateral damage, but also in terms of international negative reactions and long-term adverse effects. Don't know if that is even a consideration, but I'm giving the Israeli leadership the benefit of doubt here.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 22 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lets not engage any threat that is sheilding himself in the midst of civilians because they might get hurt.<span id='postcolor'>

Again, don't use a sledgehammer. Force isn't the answer to everything, although for someone it is an attractive short-term fix. Maybe you need to study the reason behind the threat to avoid creating more threats as you eliminate one.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 22 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so your accusation that we elected a leader ship and  then violence errupted is wrong.<span id='postcolor'>

You gonna quote me as having said this?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 22 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and sharon has to thank Arafat for his elections. he wouldnt be elected unless Arafat opened fire.<span id='postcolor'>

By "Arafat" you mean "one of the various Palestinian extremist groups that Arafat couldn't control even if he wanted to"? But I agree with you; Sharon probably did benefit from the cowardly attacks against Israeli civilians. Isn't it suspicious how Arafat, if I understand you correctly, worked so hard on his terrorism act so that he could get a hard-liner such as Sharon voted in as his future "adversary"? Or are you saying that Arafat is a vegetable?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 22 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i say that our troops checked fire far more then any other country.

<span id='postcolor'>

Well, you're certainly allowed to make statements. If that is true, the Israeli military leadership should revise its PR strategy, 'cause that's not how it looks to the outside world. In fact, it looks very much like your military wants to hide the truth, whatever that may be. Your military's concern for the safety of international reporters and journalists is almost touching.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 22 2002,19:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you couldnt hear a word from europe when suicide bombers exploded amongst us, but the minute we lift a finger, we're being compared to the nazis.<span id='postcolor'>

That's just plain wrong. We get a lot of bomber reports where I'm at, and they're not too shy about telling the details, either. I'm not even gonna comment on the "nazi" part.

[Gaswell 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 23 2002,05:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the point is that they decided to use a heavily populated area as a defence, using the civilians while endagering them with their own boobytraps.<span id='postcolor'>

You can't be serious. How did they "choose" where the Israeli military would move in?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 23 2002,05:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">about any financing i might ask you if your willing to pay for any damages done to Iraq in the gulf war?<span id='postcolor'>

No, that damage was caused during military action against an agressor. However, it could be argued that Iraq should pay for damages caused in Kuwait. I'm not even gonna apply the correct analogy to the current situation, simply because I doubt either of us would like the resulting comparisons.

Are Israel gonna pay the PA for damages caused to the infrastructure in Palestinian areas? When? Who should estimate the total costs? How about damages caused to UN property, and the property of various humanitarian organizations?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 23 2002,05:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">do you pay your enemy after the war for any damages done to him by you?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, in some cases.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 23 2002,05:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">does anyone in the PA is paying any damages done to any of our structures by suicide bombers?<span id='postcolor'>

Now you go off postulating that the PA is responsible for every suicide bomber whacko out there. Is the Israeli government responsible for every right-wing Jewish extremist, such as the one that killed Yitzhak Rabin? Or Folke Bernadotte?

[Oligo 1]

They have a peculiar way of putting it...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

president of the police of Berlin:

Polizeivizepräsident Gerd Neubeck

the name Sunnman sounds very odd to me, it doesnt realy sound very German. But you never know.

Anyway we got some Internet-sites here specially made for the interests of the jewish community. I searched through it, but couldnt find a "german" reference to the whole issue!

Haligal.com

I searched also throught the Jewish Online Forum if this was discussed anywhere, unfortunately I could not find any reference!

Jewish Forum

Please, if you make such an accusal, then post a link, so it can be verrified (or researched). I mean, after all that is the advantage of discussing online!  

The reference article:

"Tyskland" it is funny that it is called like this, it is a very very old name here! (tusk = german )"

[Gaswell 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 23 2002,16:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The reference article:

"Tyskland" it is funny that it is called like this, it is a very very old name here! (tusk = german )"<span id='postcolor'>

The article is from a Norwegian newspaper, and "Germany" is "Tyskland" in Norwegian. Hence, a "German" is a "tysker".

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Any news from the Front?

[scout 0]

u say Arafat, cant control any whacko. ill defer.

when he wanted to he did that pretty well, why didnt he continued? why he arrested and released them on the spot?

the problem is that he has shown us that when he wants to he can stop them to a mere trickle, and because of a trickle, no one would retaliate. on the other hand, when his own people, the Fatah, the El-Aqsa brigades, and gave free hand to the Hamas and Jihad, then he didnt do even 1% of his ability, and dont say that we ruined his ability. he had almost 18 months before we've done it.

next: as i said some 50 pages ago, i dont mind giving them a country, but ill doubt they'll stop there. and to move back 200000 ppl is no small feat. so that a thing thats gotta be done not in a hurry, thats no south lebannon for you.

btw. didnt he also say that most of those supported the military op? there is no connection to what ppl think is right to do in general. and the pollist said: "if there will be peace"

do you know how many of them think its possible now? you really dont want to, and most actually dont believe Arafat personally.

the professor you quoted has a really hard illness, many israelis have. they think that the pals wont be able to stand on their feet alone. i disagree, they have egypt to one border and Jordan to another, and all these countries eager to assist them, so they have every oppertunity to build themselves.

u want to know whats a prison? think of a prison. there are 6 mil inmates surrounded by 400 mil ppl that want to break in.

ring a bell?

Red cross is in Jenin as soon as the army completed it op in it and there were no battles, as i said the red cross used for 2 days our SAR perssonel until the army pulled out, check your data.

about the police thing. it something i heard on the radio on the way to the university and one german jews was interviewed. im not gonna argue about that cause it really doesnt worth the bother, it just....well.....didnt sound right.

and gaswell, please, want to compare how many israeli extremists killed pals and how many moderate pals killed israelis? do you? that was a very weak argument, all u've got to say is one that was killed in 1948 and an israeli PM right........

and i didnt mean i needed sympathy but fact is that europe didnt raise a finger to pressure arafat to stop suicide bombers or any attacks rather then threaten him once in a while, and nothing like what europe is trying, threatening, etc. to do to us.

sympathy wont stop them, and if u didnt even try, all we've got left, is again, only us.

Quote (scout @ April 23 2002,055)

about any financing i might ask you if your willing to pay for any damages done to Iraq in the gulf war?

"No, that damage was caused during military action against an agressor"

hmmm.....thats exacftly how the PA is acting.

btw. allmost all infrastructure.....is paid by and maintained the israeli tax payers: and israeli companies: the electricity, water, gas, sewer. i think i've paid enough, time for some self financed work.

the PA actually owes about 500 mill to our electric company. who'll pay them?

well, last but not least. our PR suck big time, and every time i hear an army spokesman i have an urge to throw someting at my TV. luckily i remember i dont have money to buy another one.....

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 25 2002,23:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and i didnt mean i needed sympathy but fact is that europe didnt raise a finger to pressure arafat to stop suicide bombers or any attacks rather then threaten him once in a while, and nothing like what europe is trying, threatening, etc. to do to us.

sympathy wont stop them, and if u didnt even try, all we've got left, is again, only us.<span id='postcolor'>

You have to understand one thing, it is your and the partly the American theory that Arafat has any connection with the suicide bombings. Nobody else in the world shares that view.

This conflict will have to end like this:

1] The Palestinians get their country. Israel has to accept that.

2] The country of Israel is there to stay. The Palestinians have to accept that.

As for Arafat.. they can choose whoever they want as their leader...

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 25 2002,23:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and i didnt mean i needed sympathy but fact is that europe didnt raise a finger to pressure arafat to stop suicide bombers or any attacks rather then threaten him once in a while, and nothing like what europe is trying, threatening, etc. to do to us.

sympathy wont stop them, and if u didnt even try, all we've got left, is again, only us.<span id='postcolor'>

It's not that long ago that Sharon didn't even let the euro diplomats to meet Arafat. How are we going to tell him to stop his shit if you don't even let us to see him? Anyway, I know you are going to let them see Arafat now, so no point arguing about this particular matter.

The israelis like the yanks as mediators, since they are pro-jew. The pals like euros as mediators, since they are pro-pal (at least more so than yanks). The way I see it, there are not any countries suitable to be mediators, since everybody has some kind of opinion on this conflict. It's a major problem.

One interesting thing I read in the paper today (Time Magazine). Harry Kney-Tal, Israel's ambassador to the E.U. said (and I quote): 'These people (Euro leaders) are all pacifists. They don't like Israel or U.S. because we use force.' I wonder what is so goddamn wrong with being a little pacifist? Could this have something to do with two world wars that have been fought on european soil? Could euros be a little tired of war?

[Longinius 1]

I might have missed it, but I'd still like an answer to my question.

Why are not the UN observers allowed to enter Jenin if there is nothing to hide? Why were the UN aid workers stopped from entering the camp if no crimes were being commited?

[Guest]

Their safety cannot be guaranteed.

[second_draw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 26 2002,12:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Their safety cannot be guaranteed.  <span id='postcolor'>

Are the palenstinians afraid that the peace keepers will make peace & therefore leave them will nothing to hate? I think they must have temporarily forgotten about the capatilist scum in the "west"?

[Longinius 1]

"Are the palenstinians afraid that the peace keepers will make peace & therefore leave them will nothing to hate? I think they must have temporarily forgotten about the capatilist scum in the "west"? "

If this was the case then it would be the Palestinians who tried to keep the UN out and not the Israelis.

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (second_draw @ April 26 2002,13:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are the palenstinians afraid that the peace keepers will make peace & therefore leave them will nothing to hate?<span id='postcolor'>

This seems to be the case for both sides, this conflict seems to be a big and dear part of their life, it has become part of life; one never know what would be there instead if its gone......

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Harry Kney-Tal, Israel's ambassador to the E.U. said (and I quote): 'These people (Euro leaders) are all pacifists. <span id='postcolor'>

LOL

Thats the most terrible accusition I have ever heard. Europeans called something as low, dirty, disgusting as pacifists??          Kill them all!!!!!!!!!!!

(BTW, personally I cant think of it as anything else than a compliment, concrete actions -war- never solves problems, abstract actions - research (destruction of ideologies etc), diplomacy - does in the long run)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ April 26 2002,17:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (second_draw @ April 26 2002,13:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are the palenstinians afraid that the peace keepers will make peace & therefore leave them will nothing to hate?<span id='postcolor'>

This seems to be the case for both sides, this conflict seems to be a big and dear part of their life, it has become part of life; one never know what would be there instead if its gone......

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Harry Kney-Tal, Israel's ambassador to the E.U. said (and I quote): 'These people (Euro leaders) are all pacifists. <span id='postcolor'>

LOL

Thats the most terrible accusition I have ever heard. Europeans called something as low, dirty, disgusting as pacifists??          Kill them all!!!!!!!!!!!

(BTW, personally I cant think of it as anything else than a compliment, concrete actions -war- never solves problems, abstract actions - research (destruction of ideologies etc), diplomacy - does in the long run)<span id='postcolor'>

Pah, Pukko, you are nothing than a Pacifist! You peace-keeper, you arguer, you that you believe in diplomacy! Didnt you learn from the past? Only war can solve conflicts, damm what do you people learn in school nowadays? Freudt or what?

[PitViper 0]

http://www.memri.org/news.html#1019657885

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 26 2002,08:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's not that long ago that Sharon didn't even let the euro diplomats to meet Arafat. How are we going to tell him to stop his shit if you don't even let us to see him? Anyway, I know you are going to let them see Arafat now, so no point arguing about this particular matter.<span id='postcolor'>

hm.. doh! where have you been the last 16 months? or 8 years for that matter? why didnt you do a thing then?

or didnt it matter before?

@longinius, UN aid workers and IRC are in Jenin since IDF completed its occupation of the Jenin camp. they actually used the help of SAR teams of the IDF until the IDF pulled out.

since there are no troops there about a week now, there is no way we can hold them back are we?

if uve got reportes there, then everybody is there already.

edit: if Arafats own faction is involvedint the suicide bombing and attacks in israel, i dont know what another proof you need.

[scout 0]

15 litres of Iodine were captured before an attept to poison the water wells of jerusalem.....sweet.

edit: i didnt answer longinius in whole so here is the rest -

the FACT finding comittee was supposed to look into the battle of Jenin, on the military side. yet the was only one member who had prior military experince, and only as observer.

the comittee was to give a report on their findings only.

why there arent experts in the area of combat and counter-terrorism?

only after long talks did Anaan agree (today! to add couter-terror specialists members to the comittee.

secondly,it was agreed that they would only hand a report of WHAT HAPPENED, no recomendations or anything else.

Anaan suddenly changed that too. whats next?

if Anaan tried to increase our sense of paranoia, well, the next time you meet him you can tell him he couldnt do any better.

[Longinius 1]

"@longinius, UN aid workers and IRC are in Jenin since IDF completed its occupation of the Jenin camp. they actually used the help of SAR teams of the IDF until the IDF pulled out.

since there are no troops there about a week now, there is no way we can hold them back are we?"

Very fine and dandy. But why werent the observers let in during the offensive?

[scout 0]

dandy......you are starting to sound like a brit

any way the comittee is due tomorrow and no one will prevent them to go inside.