Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted April 6, 2002 Yes, okay, we announce it to be the mission statement of this thread! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted April 6, 2002 wow....a thread that's not a spam thread, but is nearly 40 pages long...this is a record.... As for what i see, Israel guards fired rubber bullets at western media. not a good idea. I saw from a MSN news some pics, and it was hilarious. media cameramen standing right behind IDF soldiers with cameras in hand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted April 6, 2002 but those soldiers are not trained in dealing with the press. They just dont know how to put the 'no press' order into practice. I saw soldiers calmly throwing tear gas out of jeep into a crowd of journalists. There are many stars in Germany that wish to be able to do the same thing! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nordin dk 0 Posted April 6, 2002 @Avon and scout- A question in all sincerity, out of curiosity: How are your viewpoints compared to the "average" israeli? Would you consider yourself extreme, normal, soft? Is there a great divide among the israelis or more of a broad concensus? I am trying to understand some of the social aspects of what a war can do to a person. What the climate is like in your immediate surroundings... This is very interesting to me, and I only wish we had palestinian people here to even out the debate somehow (although it would probably get ugly pretty fast ) Hope you will give my question some serious consideration... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted April 6, 2002 Palestinians? wihtout electricity? I think they got better things to do right now than to hang around in an PC-GAME Forum! You are a funny man. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nordin dk 0 Posted April 6, 2002 Well you could imagine Avon and scout having better things to do, or, for that matter, you could easily imagine all of us having better things to do, but we're still here aren't we? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 06 2002,22:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but those soldiers are not trained in dealing with the press. They just dont know how to put the 'no press' order into practice. I saw soldiers calmly throwing tear gas out of jeep into a crowd of journalists. There are many stars in Germany that wish to be able to do the same thing! Â <span id='postcolor'> good point... but as long as press doesn't give out positions of army in advance, what gives? speaking of german celebrities, is David Hasselhoff considered one? LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KingBeast 0 Posted April 7, 2002 During the Falklands war, the BBC were rather stupid in announcing on the news that 2 para were in position to attack. (was either goose green or port stanley) Journos can be awfully dum Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted April 7, 2002 David Hasselhof? I guess he never had more fans in the world than in Germany! But you will laugh, I guess it is more due to Knight-Rider than to Baywatch or his terrible Singers-career! The problem with the press is deep and serious. It gets hard for us to verify any information! Cause there is none. If a newspaper delivers infomation it must be pure assumption. What about the slaughter that has been going on in Palestine? Supposingly there were a 100 killed innocent people! But we dont know! It is ashame that we dont know! We discuss for nothing! And this is why we find ourselves in this nonesense discussion. We lack information! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralphwiggum 6 Posted April 7, 2002 true..the only truth we know that is there are casualties on both sides, and there's a conflict. and that David Hasselhof is a terrible singer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pete 1 Posted April 7, 2002 i dont agree we are discussing for nothing. so what if we dont change the world, who cares...but we educate ourselfs about the world and what happens in it..its like saying that reading newspapers is useless since knowing what is happening is pointless simply becouse you cant change anything... or watching sports and cheer for one side is totally moronic and makes no difference, specially not when you watch it on tv... anyways, arguing over things is very educative in many ways..you see more opinions and views on the same subject when on a forum with many people, like this... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 06 2002,22:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Any normal person could read "Honestreporting.com" for ten seconds and realise that it is racist, biased and completely untrustworthy. If you subscribe to their view of the world you are deeply stupid. Now read this... from an interview with an American journalist. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BOGAEV: You describe daily encounters between Israeli soldiers and Palestinians there. And most of those killed are young Palestinian boys. What did you see of this fighting while you were there? How did this shooting go down? Mr. HEDGES: Well, every afternoon--you know, you could almost time it--around 3 or 4, the Palestinian kids, who have nowhere to play, would play--would go out on the dunes and they'd have kites or rag balls and this kind of stuff. And I remember--I heard it the first day. And I speak Arabic, so I'm listening over the loudspeaker to the worst curse words in Arabic, and phrases like, you know, 'All the Palestinians who live in Khan Yunis are dogs,' which is calling an Arab a dog is particularly insulting. And I couldn't--I just couldn't believe what I heard. And I walked out towards the dunes and they were--the--over the loudspeaker from an Israeli army Jeep on the other side of the electric fence they were taunting these kids. And these kids started to throw rocks. And most of these kids were 10, 11, 12 years old. And, first of all, the rocks were the size of a fist. They were being hurled towards a Jeep that was armor-plated. I doubt they could even hit the Jeep. And then I watched the soldiers open fire. And it was--I mean, I've seen kids shot in Sarajevo. I mean, snipers would shoot kids in Sarajevo. I've seen death squads kill families in Algeria or El Salvador. But I'd never seen soldiers bait or taunt kids like this and then shoot them for sport. It was--I just--even now, I find it almost inconceivable. And I went back every day, and every day it was the same. <span id='postcolor'> Full interview- http://64.226.129.19/pmw/manager/features/display_message.asp?mid=487<span id='postcolor'> The Chris Hedges article was so outrageous that I spent a good amount of time last night and this morning searching for someone who specifically deals with it point by point. Full rebuttal at: http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/hedges.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nordin dk @ April 07 2002,00:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">@Avon and scout- A question in all sincerity, out of curiosity: How are your viewpoints compared to the "average" israeli? Would you consider yourself extreme, normal, soft? Is there a great divide among the israelis or more of a broad concensus? I am trying to understand some of the social aspects of what a war can do to a person. What the climate is like in your immediate surroundings... This is very interesting to me, and I only wish we had palestinian people here to even out the debate somehow (although it would probably get ugly pretty fast ) Hope you will give my question some serious consideration...<span id='postcolor'> I can't speak for Scout. I am very right wing. The left would use the word "extreme", which I use to describe their being out of touch with reality. When the whole Oslo shindig came out, I was of the opinion that things were going to go drastically downhill vis-a-vis the potential to reach a peaceful coexistance. My only mistake was in underestimating the amount of time Israeli politicians would wake up and smell the coffee. You can get an idea what Israelis think of the current situation from this recent poll compiled for the Jerusalem Post. Keep in mind that until recently, on the average, Israelis were bouncing back and forth at the 50-50 line on the matter of the whole peace process, previously not even discussing war as an option. My immediate surroundings? I live in Jerusalem. The neighborhood I'm in has not had any events but it's a small town, relatively speaking and it's just a 15 minute ride to the destroyed Moment Cafe or to the patched-up-multiple-times center of town. Since the start of the "Oslo War" in Sep. 2000, we as a family have ceased to eat out, go to major public places, such as town or a mall and are overly concerned with our 3 older children having to get to school every morning by public transportation. Recently, we've also stopped participating in hikes and 4x4 trips as an extra precaution. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Satchel @ April 06 2002,22:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don´t think my history knowledge needs an update, but i would be interested in how you describe the seizing of Hebron, Ramallah, Bire, Gaza, Balata and Dschabalija,<span id='postcolor'> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">with the palestinians in there are constantly chased from one camp to another,<span id='postcolor'> That's what happens when Israelis are constantly blown to bits on buses, in stores, restaurants, cafes and what have you. But they're not chased from one camp to another. Those Palestinians have been intentionally kept in those camps since 1948, initially under strict Jordanian and Egyptian control. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">being rightless refugees deprived of any place to stay safely and permanently under their own,<span id='postcolor'> Ask what Arafat did for them in the last 8 years. All of the refugee camps haven't budged despite billions in aid poured into the PA over the last 8 years - especially from the EU. But you'll be happy to know that every one of the top PA brass built themsleves villas and drive around in Mercedes that are to die for! </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">that is without Israeli occupation and oppression.<span id='postcolor'> They oppress us, we'll oppress back until they stop and discontinue. It's rather simple, actually. Once again, the sequence of events is quite important here. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Instead they are kept like cattle, with ca. 550 human beings pearched together on a single km˛ under unbearable circumsstances, and this space is getting less and less as you can see LIVE on television or read in the news.<span id='postcolor'> Tel Aviv is actually no better: http://gis.cbs.gov.il/shnaton52/new_israel_per_tivi.jpg What kept them in those refugee camps over the last 8 years? They're all in Area A and until Arafat started the war in September 2000, we weren't there altogether. We left it for the love of Oslo. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I´m really curious about your israeli definition for that Avon, as someone said earlier we called it "schaffen von Lebensraum" in one of the darker timeperiods of Germany.???<span id='postcolor'> That's OK. This dark period is very similar in more ways than you would like to admit. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then explain Scharon showing of in an intentional provocing act in Haram-al-Scharif<span id='postcolor'> Otherwise known as the Temple Mount, for those not aware, and as it was called for over a thousand years before any such thing as Islam ever existed. Your choice of names jsut shows which side your bread is buttered on. It is the holiest site to Judaism. Always has been, always will be. Numerous Israeli politicians had gone up there in the past. Since when should we allow the Moslem Wakf to dictate where Jews can and cannot go at such places? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">after the failed peace talks in Camp David,<span id='postcolor'> Yes, where Arafat rejected Barak's ridiculously generous offers for additional unilateral comprimises. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what was ultimately the ignition for a chain of terror acts known as the second Intifada?<span id='postcolor'> Ask the CIA. They seem to have been aware that Arafat was planning this all along. It was old news here. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is maybe the same lack of interest in a peaceful solution as radical palestinian groups have them, to keep their crusade of revenge ongoing?<span id='postcolor'> There are two side to every coin. Israel complied with the Oslo agreements and ignored Palestinian violation after violation of the terms. Nevertheless, both Netanyahu in the Wye River Accords and later Barak at Camp David foolishly kept on offerring more for nothing in return - not even minimum compliance. You're barking up the wrong tree. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Interesting this number, but i doubt it´s valid and for sure modified to meet the intentions of the poll starters.<span id='postcolor'> Read who conducted the poll. I'm really fed up with the dismissal of every thing I discuss here. I'll similarly just dismiss you. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you would start a poll right now, i´m sure you get 100% and i wouldn´t be surprised- considering whats happening there right now. It´s always dependant on the situation at hand amongst other factors.<span id='postcolor'> Go back and look at the Arab polls shortly after Oslo started in 1994 and the then-wave of suicide attacks was happenning here (oh! Did you forget those?). I can't be bothered anymore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACEJim 0 Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2002,09:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Chris Hedges article was so outrageous that I spent a good amount of time last night and this morning searching for someone who specifically deals with it point by point. Full rebuttal at: http://world.std.com/~camera/docs/alert/hedges.html<span id='postcolor'> The Camera website? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Public opinion ultimately shapes public policy. Defamatory news coverage threatens U.S.-Israel relations and Israel's security. Additionally, by fostering false impressions of Israel and Jewish heritage, media distortion fuels antisemitism, an affront to all fair-minded Americans.<span id='postcolor'> Heh... and they call the BBC propaganda... </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">While these British newspapers have a limited audience outside the U.K., BBC’s World Service has a global audience of well over 150 million people, with website, TV and radio broadcasts delivering commentary and analysis to the world round the clock. It is therefore significant that throughout its coverage of the terror attacks and their aftermath, the BBC has, in effect, played the role of PR agent for the Palestinians and the Arab world, echoing their anti-Israel line and doing damage control for the Palestinians’ tarnished image. To this end, BBC has minimized the widespread Palestinian celebrations over attacks on America, accused Israel of taking advantage of America’s distraction to victimize the Palestinians, and scapegoated Israel by “explaining†Arab anger at the U.S. in terms of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. <span id='postcolor'> It's complete rubbish. The BBC reports fact, not opinion, and while there will be people within the organisation with strong political views I've never seen them use the organisation for propaganda. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 07 2002,12:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Camera website?<span id='postcolor'> Yep. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Heh... and they call the BBC propaganda...<span id='postcolor'> Again, from Websters, since English is the common language here: prop-a-gan-da (prop uh gan'duh) n. 1. information or ideas methodically spread to promote or injure a cause, movement, nation, etc. 2. the deliberate spreading of such information or ideas. As you quoted CAMERA: "by fostering false impressions of Israel and Jewish heritage, media distortion fuels antisemitism, an affront to all fair-minded Americans." Can you please explain to me concretely what is wrong/innacurate/misleading in Camera's reply? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's complete rubbish. The BBC reports fact, not opinion, and while there will be people within the organisation with strong political views I've never seen them use the organisation for propaganda.<span id='postcolor'> Thursday, May 24, 2001 Hamas: BBC reporter expressed solidarity By DOUGLAS DAVIS The Jerusalem Post 24 May 2001 LONDON - A senior BBC correspondent in the Gaza Strip is reported to have told a Hamas gathering that journalists and media organizations are "waging the campaign shoulder-to-shoulder together with the Palestinian people" The alleged remarks, by BBC Arabic Service correspondent Faid Abu Shimalla, were reported on the Hamas Web site, which said they were made at "an impressive and well-attended ceremony" earlier this month to honor some 140 Palestinian, Arab, Islamic, and international journalists and attended by Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. A BBC spokesman last night confirmed to The Jerusalem Post that Shimalla has been the Gaza Strip correspondent of the BBC Arabic Service for the past five years, but he said the BBC was unable to locate the Web site and could not comment further. He noted, however, that Shimalla is "a senior and experienced journalist who knows the requirements for impartiality." At the ceremony, Hamas official Ismail Abu Shanab said journalists should be honored for "the special role they have played through their cameras, pens, and skills, as well as through their rare courage and daring which they have demonstrated by their joining the nation struggling fiercely against the enemy." He praised their "accurate depiction of the terrorism employed by the Zionist enemy and its vile crimes, as well as the outstanding courageous portrayal of our children and martyrs." Speaking on behalf of the journalists, Shimalla, who is described as a correspondent of the BBC, thanked the Hamas movement for holding the event, "despite the pace of current events and the sensitive circumstances applying to journalists and media organizations, which are waging the campaign shoulder-to-shoulder together with the Palestinian people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACEJim 0 Posted April 7, 2002 If you can't see the overt bias and propaganda - (I go by the Oxford definition by the way ) on that website then there's something wrong with your eyes. I wouldn't trust anything from there just like I wouldn't trust anything from here, it's palestinian counterpart. http://www.electronicintifada.com/new.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 Well, then, good look to you in your world of make-believe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACEJim 0 Posted April 7, 2002 Ahh... you've lost the argument so you're resorting to random insults... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 07 2002,14:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ahh... you've lost the argument so you're resorting to random insults... Â Â <span id='postcolor'> Far from random. Stay here for a half a year, watch PA TV and you'll see what a joke the press is (including much of the local Israeli press). This held true for all of the past 8 years - not just since 2000. Had I known that the world would have been so ignorant and turned such a blind eye to what's going on, I would have recorded them all and documented them for posterity. You can find some on the WEB. Here's a classic example: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/metafiles/ram/eng-video/jihad.ram Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACEJim 0 Posted April 7, 2002 Of course palestinian TV is joke, I'm not saying it isn't, it's biased, anti-israeli and pro-palestinian. On the other hand israel TV would be anti-palestinian and pro-israeli. I'd treat both sources with equal amounts of skepticism. And it's why I'd rate what the BBC and CNN report - organisations with no obvious political bias above both of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 07 2002,14:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course palestinian TV is joke, I'm not saying it isn't, it's biased, anti-israeli and pro-palestinian.<span id='postcolor'> Did you even bother looking at that clip? It wasn't produced for you and me - it's for internal consumption. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 7, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 07 2002,13:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And it's why I'd rate what the BBC and CNN report - organisations with no obvious political bias above both of them. <span id='postcolor'> I couldn't agree more. The reporting is best if the reporters don't care about the problem and have no opinions of their own. Less interest in the problem = less biased reporting. Now the BBC and CNN are biased in that way that they represent British and American interests. However, in the Israel/Palestine situation both the British and the Americans care much less about the situation then the Palestinians and the Jews do.. so they have a more objective look at the situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 Back in mid-December, British Tory leader, Iain Duncan Smith, told a London audience this week: "Surely it is time that our national broadcasters, not just, but including the BBC, stopped describing Hamas and Jihad with such euphemisms as radical and militant. Let us call things what they are: they are terrorist organizations... Such fudging of what Hamas or Islamic Jihad are confers some sort of legitimacy on people who are terrorists." http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi....120.stm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theavonlady 2 Posted April 7, 2002 Can you please look at this claim of bias at CNN, as an example, and explain to me why it isn't? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
