MoH Receipient Can't Fly A Flag

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Yawn...

Where ist the initiative when it comes to people who suffer from traumatas caused by the latest conflicts ? You got about 40.000 US people who fail to reintegrate, who get left behind by the system, the community, their families, the govenrment and you make a big fuzz about an old man who fails to comply to a contract ?

You got bigger problems to worry about.

Seriously, as much as it may harm that old man, it´s a joke compared to the real problems Iraq and Afghanistan veterans have to face in the US of A today...

Better put your initiative there...

And not about some stupid flag thingie....

Awesome, what real problems do I have to face in the US of A as an Iraq and Afghanistan veteran?

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[Balschoiw 0]

I´m sure you could find out easily by yourself but here you go:

1. One in five US soldiers returning home suffers from PTSD

2. TBI (traumatic brain injuries) make up a total of 22 percent of the injuries, that´s twice high than during/after the vietnam war.

3. A Stanford University study found that 700.000 of 2.000.000 soldiers having served in Iraq and Afghanistan suffer from PTSD or TBI. That´s a total of 36 percent.

4. IAVA (Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America) has a pretty straight opinion on the aftermath costs of war participation and the money needed to support injured or traumatized soldiers:

IAVA’s Paul Rieckhoff Joined CNN to Discuss Impact of Afghan Plan on Vets

5. The suicide rate among US soldiers has doubled since 2001 according to Peter Chiarelli, Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army. This doesn´t come out of nowhere.

According to him at least 900 therapeuts and additional psychologists are needed to support the troops and to treat the vast amount of veterans who suffer from a palette

of mental or bodily injuries. There´s no additional money for it though.

6. The unemployment rate among veterans is 2 points higher than among regular citizens.

7. The number of veterans loosing their homes is 4 times higher than among regular citizens.

8. Veterans have to wait years for compensation or proper medical treatment as the deciding authority, the VA is underfinanced and not fit to handle such big numbers of veterans who are in need of instant help and support.

Families of soldiers who commited suicide do not even get the usual predidential condolences. This alone shows how their lives and deaths are valued by the government and the society.

Hope that helps.

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

I´m sure you could find out easily by yourself but here you go:

1. One in five US soldiers returning home suffers from PTSD

2. TBI (traumatic brain injuries) make up a total of 22 percent of the injuries, that´s twice high than during/after the vietnam war.

3. A Stanford University study found that 700.000 of 2.000.000 soldiers having served in Iraq and Afghanistan suffer from PTSD or TBI. That´s a total of 36 percent.

4. IAVA (Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America) has a pretty straight opinion on the aftermath costs of war participation and the money needed to support injured or traumatized soldiers:

IAVA’s Paul Rieckhoff Joined CNN to Discuss Impact of Afghan Plan on Vets

5. The suicide rate among US soldiers has doubled since 2001 according to Peter Chiarelli, Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army. This doesn´t come out of nowhere.

According to him at least 900 therapeuts and additional psychologists are needed to support the troops and to treat the vast amount of veterans who suffer from a palette

of mental or bodily injuries. There´s no additional money for it though.

6. The unemployment rate among veterans is 2 points higher than among regular citizens.

7. The number of veterans loosing their homes is 4 times higher than among regular citizens.

8. Veterans have to wait years for compensation or proper medical treatment as the deciding authority, the VA is underfinanced and not fit to handle such big numbers of veterans who are in need of instant help and support.

Families of soldiers who commited suicide do not even get the usual predidential condolences. This alone shows how their lives and deaths are valued by the government and the society.

Hope that helps.

So the veterans of other wars never had to deal with this stuff? I "suffer" from both PTSD and TBI, and am rated as 100% disabled by the VA for those, and other injuries sustained on deployment, but I don't use those as excuses to fall below the line. I work and attend school. I will attempt to re-enter service after finishing my degree and earn a commission. None of this is news to me, but it's always good to see other people setting the standard of failure.

You're wrong about problem #8. Veterans coming off of Active Duty have 5 years of free medical care from the VA. It isn't anyone else's fault if they never sign up for it, part of their exit briefing is a VA representative who goes over this stuff.

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

A -real- problem is putting SOF personnel on trial for capturing HVTs and punching them in the lip.

A -real- problem is British troops having to fight their own MoD for the equipment they need to fight.

A -real- problem is MoD suing British veterans to cut their compensation payments.

A -real- problem is dicking around for 3 months before listening to your hand-picked general and giving him part of what he wants.

Etc.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Clavicula_nox4817

[Balschoiw 0]

Hate to say it *snip*

So you´re ok with it ?

If you take the time you´ll find out that the numbers are steadily rising, this is a tribute to the way wars a fought today in comparison to conflicts decades ago.

Still, there´s hardly any intitiative to compensate that development and support the vets.

Waving flags and vocally supporting the troops does not help them in the aftermath.

Actions to change the governmental support and responsibility do.

As a matter of fact this is the new generation of veterans we´re talking about here. It´s your neighbours, your friends, your schoolmates.

And yes, they are left behind today.

@Clavicula_nox4817:

I applaud your effort and goals but there are so many vets that are simply dropping through the system as they lack your personal strength or simply have been altered by the things they experienced so much that they will never get back on track again. As long as PTSD is seen as a personal deficit among the military personel, people will go on killing themselves as they are to afraid to expose themselves and ask for proper treatment within a bureaucratic process of the VA, especially if you keep in mind that traumatized people lack the energy to "fight" through the machine.

Also keep in mind that such problems do not arise instantly, they grow over time.

Anyway, I hope you now can understand why I see the flag-incident the thread is about more as an anecdote than a serious problem.

A -real- problem is *snip*

Totally agreed, we could extend the list for ages, still my highlighting was on the current US situation for veterans.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Balschoiw

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

So you´re ok with it ?

If you take the time you´ll find out that the numbers are steadily rising, this is a tribute to the way wars a fought today in comparison to conflicts decades ago.

Still, there´s hardly any intitiative to compensate that development and support the vets.

Waving flags and vocally supporting the troops does not help them in the aftermath.

Actions to change the governmental support and responsibility do.

As a matter of fact this is the new generation of veterans we´re talking about here. It´s your neighbours, your friends, your schoolmates.

And yes, they are left behind today.

There isn't any support because American Idol, iPhone, and etc are more important. The war isn't real because it affects so few people. It isn't even cool to protest anymore. Etc. It isn't about changing the government, it's about the culture. The government is merely a strange reflection of that culture.

@Clavicula_nox4817:

I applaud your effort and goals but there are so many vets that are simply dropping through the system as they lack your personal strength or simply have been altered by the things they experienced so much that they will never get back on track again. As long as PTSD is seen as a personal deficit among the military personel, people will go on killing themselves as they are to afraid to expose themselves and ask for proper treatment within a bureaucratic process of the VA, especially if you keep in mind that traumatized people lack the energy to "fight" through the machine.

Also keep in mind that such problems do not arise instantly, they grow over time.

Anyway, I hope you now can understand why I see the flag-incident the thread is about more as an anecdote than a serious problem.

Yeah, I understand that, in the grand scheme of things, the flag thing is minor. But it's just another little example of the disconnect between those who have given of themselves, and those who take for themselves. The HOA has told him the flagpole is banned, not because of any rule or law, but because it is "aesthetically unappealing." That is the issue, that the nation's flag is "aesthetically unappealing". I generally have a Live and Let Live attitude towards things. I disagree with gays getting married, but see no reason, legally, why they shouldn't be able to. I'm rabidly against abortion, but feel that adults should be able to make their own decisions. I don't smoke, but again, feel that adults should be able to make their own decisions. Etc. This "aesthetically unappealing" deal just isn't one of those things for me. If I were this veteran, I would be more than willing to move because I would not want to surround myself with people of that character, but that's just me.

Military personnel on duty don't go through the VA. Posts and bases have hospitals and medical clinics that handle this stuff. Though, the stigma of PTSD is a very serious problem, I agree. For all my intent to come back to service, there is a very real chance that I will not be able to because it is on my record.

Totally agreed, we could extend the list for ages, still my highlighting was on the current US situation for veterans.

Yeah, I know. My thinking, though, is that we have to be there for those who are fighting now before we can go for those who are already done fighting.

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[Takko 10]

All people critizing the american culture (which seems common) are just jealous

because they face bigger problems day in day out

[vilas 477]

Couldn't agree more. Heres a man being jailed for not having a green enough lawn:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article847365.ece

america is really strange

i don't understand problem with flag

in my country flag is rising on pole on special occasions with assist of anthem

but

everyone can have flag if he wish

even more - if you remove national symbols - in case they are needed, it is a crime/offence in law to remove symbols where they were stated officially

if old man is soldier, if he lives, has house in america, why he cannot have american flag ?

unless there is a law that prescribes that national symbol is used by national agencies, buildings , embassy etc.

than misleading use of symbols can be punished (as law can forbid walking in Police, Army uniform to mislead other people who are you)

unless there is no law reservation of usage of national symbol

i can't understand how anyone can order to remove national symbol and why such order to remove is not treated as crime/offence against symbols

i also don't know if other countries not regulate usage of national symbols by civilian people or not governmental actions

but if such a*** like "local community" order something, heheheheh, and you say about "land of freedom" and evil "commie" while in our "not freedom" we had more freedom than you

NOONE can order me to paint my house to green, brown, NOONE can order me to wear blue or black jeans, NOONE can tell me remove flag, cut tree, NOONE can order in my area (if i would have house) to have white, yellow umbrella

where is your legendary "freedom" ? cause the more i read, the more i see, that you have no freedom, looking at TV and watching movies where police stops and control , where people who drove little too fast are shot dead etc.

and i cannot understand how (if not treated badly) national symbol can be ordered to be removed

and such "local owners association" do not get case/ticket for removing national symbol

Edited December 8, 2009 by vilas

[Deadfast 43]

where is your legendary "freedom" ? cause the more i read, the more i see, that you have no freedom, looking at TV and watching movies where police stops and control , where people who drove little too fast are shot dead etc.

There we go again...

Please be kind enough to provide us with sources of people getting shot for speeding...

The neighborhood the veteran lives in happens to have a home owners association.

The association has some legal rights declared and limited by a law. He acknowledged this by signing the deed when purchasing his house.

This said association takes democratic decisions based on the majority.

Sadly the majority there happens to consist of douches who somehow find a 2 meters high flag pole next to his house aesthetically unappealing.

[vilas 477]

idiotism

nazi skinheads can march with swastika on arm

old soldier cannot raise flag

this is idiotic

weird kind of freedom, if own flag is forbidden and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z43QL_fhclY

is allowed :/

they should be shot by police cause use Hitler symbols (victims of Hitler war is over 35 milions of people from alliance countries), not protected

and flag should wave near house and noone should say "repaint doors" f** freedom, cause my doors - my will

removing national symbols is only possible when they are misused and it is ordered by court or whoever , if someone over-use , wrongly use - at least in not "land of free" ;)

i can raise a flag, i can paint my doors any color i want and noone f** tell me single word

what i see on this YT movie ?

nazis repainted US flag, using symbol of killers (Hitler army)

so they made crime against flag, is it not punished? they destroyed US flag in US and police protect them, not beat ???

there was US flag repainted with Swastika??? and all is okay ? they misused symbol, they spat on such symbol using Swastika

while old guy cannot have flag near house ?

Edited December 8, 2009 by vilas

[Shadow NX 1]

You definatly hang in this forums too much mate, im sure there are better things to do like writing PMs about certain people to every moderator in this world and such ;)

Deadfast explained perfectly why he cant have this flagpole, his neighbours may be idiots but if they dont like this flag before his house they have a right to vote against it.

Which brings us to the freedom discussion again... youre free to do what you like as long as it isnt against laws or a contract you signed.

How you drag Skinheads into this is bejond me...

As long as they dont use forbidden signs ( which a swastika isnt in the US ) they can voice their opinions ( even if they are idiotic ), here in Germany for example a skinhead or everyone else with a swastika on his jacket or somwhere else would pay a fine or get jailed depending on his previous criminal record.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Shadow NX

[vilas 477]

Deadfast explained perfectly why he cant have this flagpole, his neighbours may be idiots but if they dont like this flag before his house they have a right to vote against it.

how ? how is it possible that someone (not court, not state) orders to remove national symbol without punishment ?

such action is action against national symbol

state (govnm.) law is over any law, including local pathetic associations

if someone said "remove national symbol", why noone as Sheriff reacted to protect national symbol ?

Which brings us to the freedom discussion again... youre free to do what you like as long as it isnt against laws or a contract you signed.

no contract, EULA, local law, association regulamin can be over law of country

How you drag Skinheads into this is bejond me...

As long as they dont use forbidden signs ( which a swastika isnt in the US ) they can voice their opinions ( even if they are idiotic ), here in Germany for example a skinhead or everyone else with a swastika on his jacket or somwhere else would pay a fine or get jailed depending on his previous criminal record.

but they had "right" to destroy flag by painting swastika on it, it is worse demeaning to anything (to paint swastika on it, painting swastika on something is like shit, vomit and spit on something, why they made it legally to US flag in US ?

it is simply sensless, that such guys were police suported and old soldier is under stupid association order to remove

or simply US not cares about 50 milions who died 1939-1945 and not cares about old man, but cares for pathetic owners who order other people to paint doors green, windows brown and wall white and blue umbrellas only ?

if someone can use without punishment symbol of those who murdered in gas chambers, why soldier cannot use symbol of those who died on D-Day?

maybe he also fought in D-Day against those d** with repainted flag ? and now he lives in land when someone forbids him to use symbol of country which he fought, and they (using symbol of those who shoot to him in 1944) walk without problem ?

makes no sens at all

Edited December 8, 2009 by vilas

[Shadow NX 1]

Thats simply called democracy.

He signed a contract.

In this contract he agreed that everyone in his neighbourhood has a voting right against things they dont like in their neighbourhood.

His neighbours dont like the flagpole in front of his house and so voted against it.

Offcourse he deserves it but a contract is a contract and if you sign it you agree to it.

Smearing a swastika on a flag offcourse isnt very nice but still the swastika is a non forbidden symbol in many countries and by that its legal, however im sure there are laws against destroying US flags but i guess these rules are rarely really used.

As said, different country different result, if anyone does it here and goes onto the street with it he will find himself in hadcuffs pretty fast.

However this swastika stuff is completely out of the context in this thread so lets not go completely offtopic in this thread once again.

[vilas 477]

Thats simply called .. shitocracy.

noone can say "remove national symbol" cause national symbol is nation value, noone can do it, at least here in PL

of course you cannot use national symbol, eagle, anathem in toilet or less or more funny situations

but if you will use it near home - noone dare to touch it and such "association" deserves one big kick in crotch

like i cannot accept that anyone say "repaint doors to other color or go to jail" link above

it is mad, sick , no other words... lets now see what US citizens think about my opinion, but i am surprised that there was no "strong" reaction on such boss of association (unless US flag was not mis-used)

cause i can expect that usage of flag may be "for special occasions on gov. buildings only" , but i don't know US regulations

maybe every day raise and down is not according to non-military active occasion, but ... if flag would just wave - it should be value

Edited December 8, 2009 by vilas

[cjsoques 0]

how ? how is it possible that someone (not court, not state) orders to remove national symbol without punishment ?

such action is action against national symbol

state (govnm.) law is over any law, including local pathetic associations

if someone said "remove national symbol", why noone as Sheriff reacted to protect national symbol ?

no contract, EULA, local law, association regulamin can be over law of country

but they had "right" to destroy flag by painting swastika on it, it is worse demeaning to anything (to paint swastika on it, painting swastika on something is like shit, vomit and spit on something, why they made it legally to US flag in US ?

it is simply sensless, that such guys were police suported and old soldier is under stupid association order to remove

or simply US not cares about 50 milions who died 1939-1945 and not cares about old man, but cares for pathetic owners who order other people to paint doors green, windows brown and wall white and blue umbrellas only ?

if someone can use without punishment symbol of those who murdered in gas chambers, why soldier cannot use symbol of those who died on D-Day?

maybe he also fought in D-Day against those d** with repainted flag ? and now he lives in land when someone forbids him to use symbol of country which he fought, and they (using symbol of those who shoot to him in 1944) walk without problem ?

makes no sens at all

I really don't care what the HOA rules are or what not, this due is 90 years old, let him have his flag for a few years then the problem solves itself...nothing crazy will happen, no harm no foul. He deserves it, I don't care about rules or what not, if this guy lived next to me he could walk outside naked to get his newspaper if he wished, I'd just have to make sure to look the other way when I got mine. If anyone has earned the right to call this land his, it is this guy.

But your arguments are just plain idiotic, stupid, and off-topic and not related to the issue at hand as you obviously don't have a clear understanding of the sometimes erratic behavior of the United States.

Get out of this topic, and please delete his messages. They are inflamatory, not related, and not based in anything related to this topic. Thanks :)

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

If it is as my HOA in my neighborhood, it doesn't have anything to do with the "flag".

The "No Flag Pole" rule is in place to protect your neighbors sky view.

We can fly flags with any wall mounted poles.

Edited December 8, 2009 by SWAT_BigBear

[vilas 477]

But your arguments are just plain idiotic, stupid, and off-topic and not related to the issue at hand as you obviously don't have a clear understanding of the sometimes erratic behavior of the United States.

Get out of this topic, and please delete his messages. They are inflamatory, not related, and not based in anything related to this topic. Thanks :)

??

what is you IQ ?

[Scrub 0]

I'm sorry Vilas, but should HE be shot for having a lower/higher IQ?

Funny that it's ok when it's your ideas of what is acceptable or not, but when someone else has the freedom to oppose, it's stupid. I note that many of your comments are about what people SHOULDN'T be able to, or CAN'T do. Over here it's about what people CAN do, like form their own organization, have their own rules and maintain the local society they care for, (flagpoles and all) as they wish. It's not all roses as this story proves, but it is FREEDOM and it is something it seems you do not have or understand.

I forgot.. To help you understand: In our Constitution, it states that the INDIVIDUAL is the most sovereign political entity. That's right We The People are the most powerful, followed by the state, and then -lastly- the federal government. Obama has reignited the fire, making us remember what we forgot in our wonderful founders words. So yes. this group and this individual has the rights to even deface the flag.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Scrub

[vilas 477]

but it is FREEDOM and it is something it seems you do not have or understand

one moment, guy cannot set flag, other guy get in jail for not in one color painted house ??

what freedom if old soldier cannot have flag pole

what freedom if man cannot have green, brown, blue doors in house ?

it souds stupid, what freedom, if he cannot do what he wants if it is patriotic ?

rights to even deface the flag.

in my country it is crime in law codex to deface flag

flag is national value, this who deface, deserve punishment

or your freedom is "freedom to deface and forbid set up own flag ?"

cause setting own flag is one of ways to show patriotism

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Why not go the whole mile and extend it to all veterans? It's not like the number of living MOH recipients is growing...

[ICE-Raver 10]

The HOA caved to the pressure. The old Colonel won 1 last battle!:D

RICHMOND, Va. — A 90-year-old Medal of Honor recipient can keep his 21-foot flagpole in his front yard after a homeowner's association dropped its request to remove it, a spokesman for Democratic Virginia Sen. Mark Warner said Tuesday.

The Sussex Square homeowners' association likewise has agreed to drop threats to take legal action against retired Army Col. Van T. Barfoot, Warner spokesman Kevin Hall said.

The association had threatened to take Barfoot to court if he failed to remove the pole from his suburban Richmond home by Friday. It had said the pole violated the neighborhood's aesthetic guidelines.

Neither Barfoot's daughter, Margaret Nicholls, nor homeowners' president Glenn Wilson immediately returned telephone messages.

Dropping the issue effectively ends a request that White House press secretary Robert Gibbs on Monday called "silly."

Warner and Sen. Jim Webb, both Virginia Democrats, had rallied behind Barfoot, a World War II veteran.

In a letter last week, Webb urged the association to "consider the exceptional nature of Col. Barfoot's service when considering his pride and determination in honoring our flag."

Barfoot's fight also has lit up veterans bulletin boards and blog sites supporting him.

Barfoot won the Medal of Honor for actions while his platoon was under German assault near Carano, Italy, in May 1944. He was credited with standing up to three German tanks with a bazooka and stopping their advance.

He also won the Purple Heart and other decorations, and served in Korea and Vietnam before retiring from the service in 1974.

Edited December 9, 2009 by ICE-Raver