Red dot / ACOG sights simlulation improvement

[mirok 0]

Hi,

recently I realized one annoyance about how the Red dot / ACOG / Holographic signs are displayed / used in games. This should be really improved in ARMA 2 for more realism and usefullness.

The thing is that these sigths are designed to be used with BOTH eyes open! (see articles below + own experiece). Your brain easily combines pictures from both eyes so in reality you have NO obstruction of view / tunnel vision, as while using iron sigths / scopes where you have to focus on proper alligment. However in most of the games due to the limitation of having "one eyed monitor" they actualy cover up >>MORE<< view then the iron sights, thus having exactly OPPOSITE affect as designed for. And since ARMA 2 is a hardcore sim, I hope something can be improved here. My suggestions would be to make their models become semi-transparent when looked through, this is especially annoyance when used in CQB.

Thanks.

Web references:

http://www.botachtactical.com/eo553miho.html

http://www.officer.com/print/Law-Enforcement-Technology/Sight-the-Advantages/1$35342

[Mudkip 0]

That would look really ugly.

[galzohar 31]

No game had done it right yet with 3d sights (2d was done before but that's easy and other than the transparency effect it looks pretty bad), and for a good reason - it's pretty damn hard to do if you actually don't want to completely kill your PC performance-wise. Hopefully some games in the future will find a way to make this right though.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

Totally agreed! I raised this up before in another thread. On top of being semi transparent, ACOG also needs to be able to switch from scope to iron sight like what the ACE mod for ArmA1 did. I am one of those who give in an ACOG weapon for an AK as quickly as possible in a game due to this limitation.

[An Fiach 10]

Totally agreed! I raised this up before in another thread. On top of being semi transparent, ACOG also needs to be able to switch from scope to iron sight like what the ACE mod for ArmA1 did. I am one of those who give in an ACOG weapon for an AK as quickly as possible in a game due to this limitation.

Why would you do that?

[jasonnoguchi 11]

^... how are you to engage anyone quickly within 100m and maintain situation awareness with a magnified sight?? The real ACOG has a pair of iron sights on top which enables it to be used for close combat which isn't simulated by default.

[mirok 0]

To MudKip, who cares about ugly if you don't see your enemy???

To Galzohar, don't see why it would, some 3rd person games do that when camera get's to close behind the charater. So all you need to do is make the whole your model semi-transparent - when looking thorough ACOG, you see just your gun anyway, right? So why not?

[galzohar 31]

Straight from an awesome game developer:

http://www.blackfootstudios.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3879&st=20

Well that is kind of a loaded question. In general, the blur is a post process and is just about 100% shader bound and therefore GPU dependent. If it's just a blurred object of some sort and not a screen space effect, like a post process, then you run into general translucent material issues like basic non directional lighting only and overdraw/fillrate. One nice thing about heavy complex shader usage is performance is completely based on how much screen space those pixels take up. So a 1P optic for example could take up a fair amount of your screen.

If you dig harder you may find it discussed elsewhere on the blackfoot studios' forums - since they're going for maximum realism, this had been brought up several times there.

[Firehead 0]

^... how are you to engage anyone quickly within 100m and maintain situation awareness with a magnified sight?? The real ACOG has a pair of iron sights on top which enables it to be used for close combat which isn't simulated by default.

That's not really 100% true. Not all "ACOGs" have the irons mounted on top. The TA01NSN is the only one that is offered with an Iron sight on top. Now they do offer the "doctor optic" or many of the other variations on a theme, that allow a red-dot sight on top of the ACOG for close quarters use. Its not issued, from what I've seen though. I don't really have any beefs with the ACOG in this game, surprisingly, I think it does the job well.

I am curious, besides citing articles, what is your "experience" with an ACOG? If its airsoft, just keep it to yourself, but otherwise, have at it.

My problem with the Aimpoint, and the EOtech is that the reticule/dot is WAY too big. The Aimpoint that is issued has a 2 MOA dot I believe(if not, its 4 MOA, even though the human eye can't really tell so I'm told), and the one in game is like 15, I swear. Its huge! At 300 meters, the dot(when properly adjusted to the light from the outside, should barely cover the centermost part of a target(from what I recall through qualifications with the CCO).

The EOTech's reticule is also too big. The outer ring(65MOA?) needs to be way thinner, and the 4 MOA dot in the middle, should obviously be smaller. Make the dots brighter too, so you don't have to zoom to get a decent sight picture. Those are my only complaints.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Firehead

[cross 1]

too bad..it has to be repeated for ArmA2...we had smaller dots for aimpoint and smaller/thinner/cleaner eotech pointer in A1...all custom made of course. :(

[mirok 0]

To Galzohar, you see it's a suggestion, and I hope a valid one. The point is that the frame takes away your view. That's a fact. I'd rather have a 2D semi transparent ring instead of fancy 3D frame, to see what's going on without to un-sight or lower the muzzle. Guess some mod can come up with that easily.

If we have a limitation in a >>SIM<<, why to have it the wrong way? That is, why to take away basic need, rather than take away a fancy look?? ;)

[galzohar 31]

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see realistic sights that properly simulate their RL advantages/disadvantages - but I just don't see it happening due to all the issues that are involved.

[JSj 12]

Maybe just a reduction in the zoom level of the ACOG would help? Then it would be easier to use at close range while still being more accurate at longer ranges than the red dot sight. Now, a weapon with ACOG is virtually a sniper rifle, and practically useless at close range.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

Maybe just a reduction in the zoom level of the ACOG would help? Then it would be easier to use at close range while still being more accurate at longer ranges than the red dot sight. Now, a weapon with ACOG is virtually a sniper rifle, and practically useless at close range.

Er.... ACOG is 4x zoom and thats that. Toning it down and making it unreal isn't the way to go. the real ACOG, including the real ones I have used in RL have a pair of small iron sights on top for close combat engagement and this has been properly modelled in the ACE mod for ArmA1 so you can switch between ACOG or ironsights. Just disappointed BIS didn't take this into ArmA2.

[Inkompetent 0]

The ACOG sights in ArmA2 is a newer model without the backup sights. I guess this is where 'gamey' crosshairs come in, since you'd be point firing the rifle up close, and simply using the gamey crosshairs is the closest you'll get to that in ArmA2.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

sigh Ink, thats why I avoid using ACOG guns in stock ArmA so far :( If I have to start with one, I would change over to an AK at the first opportunity.

[An Fiach 10]

^... how are you to engage anyone quickly within 100m and maintain situation awareness with a magnified sight?? The real ACOG has a pair of iron sights on top which enables it to be used for close combat which isn't simulated by default.

I know quite well what ACOG sights include. How to engage quickly? I don't walk around with my CCO glues to my face so, pretty much the same as any other target. My question was simply aimed at why you would give up the advantage of a scoped rifle, especially one that does not have a large zoom factor that is problematic in close quarters.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

I would use it if i enable crosshair but crosshairs are an absolute no in my games. For me, realism is above all. And yes, 4x zoom IS problematic for me in close combat, maybe not for you. Maybe I just suck at this "game" but zoomed scope for close combat is a no no for me in RL and ingame.

[galzohar 31]

As someone who ran around a lot with an ACOG both IRL and in-game I can say it's not a major disadvantage at all in CQB, while it is a pretty decent advantage at long ranges. Both IRL and in-game, when the target is so close that the ACOG becomes a serious problem, it's also close enough for sights to not be needed (crosshairs off, of course).

None of the ACOGs I've seen during my service had ironsights on top of them. The ACOG model in Arma 2 doesn't really exist, as from the outside it looks like one of the red dot ACOGs while when you actually aim it there is no red dot (looks like the "old" ACOGs).