Games portraying the "real horrors of war"

[WKK Gimbal 0]

been doing some tests and to me it seems that the AI do scatter in panic when fired at with an MG, unless they got an MG themselves.

But I agree, more emotions/morale would be nice.

[moerty 0]

i dont' know about you guys but i get the freakiest feeling when i go to scavenge form a dead enemy and as i look down i see his face looking at me. i get a little shudder everytime i see that.

[dayglow 2]

On the graphical violence in games and if it adds to them or not I remember the review for Soldier of Fortune in CGW. The reviewer decided to see if the game would hold his attention for it's 'gaming' aspect, not just the violence, so he turned off the gore and played through the game. He found that it was alright, but just an average shooter. If you play a game just for the gore, then there is something wrong, there has to be a great game underneith. OFP would be just as good if there was no blood, no pain skins, the guy just faded out when shot. It would still be fun to play. Kinda like Medal of Honour, is it any less of a game without a 3rd party blood patch? No, it's still fun.

I'd admit that if OFP had dismemberment and hi gore, etc I'd get my giggles for a few minutes shooting LAWS and shit at people, but then I would play the game and if there was no gameplay underneith, well then, I'd probably get bored pretty quick.

I'm looking forward to Soldier of Fortune II right now, but because the gameplay looks good. Now it will be interesting to see if it's fun to play if you turn off the gore.

COLINMAN

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

BATMAN:

No, no, no!! and Yes, yes, yes!!

No, I do not want the guys to fade away when shot. I bought a cheesy game called IWO JIMA. When you shoot the Japs, they fall down and fade away. I hate that--too arcade.

Yes, there has to be a game underneath all the pomp and pageantry of gore, blood, and guts. The game in OPF is to simply survive. I don't think about how many REDs I can pop. I just care about surviving and living to the next mission.

)

[dayglow 2]

Understand what I am saying. I don't want the gore and violence in OFP tuned down. All I was saying is that if there was no graphic violence, ie fading bodies, it still would be a fun intense game. The violence adds to the intesity, it adds realism and I like it, but it isn't neccessary. If it wasn't there I wouldn't be on this board going, "OMG this game suxs, if I wanted a paintball sim I'd get one...."

Hope you understand what I am saying. Gore doesn't make the game, the gameplay does. Gore can add to the imperssion of gameplay, but it can't prop it up. The gameplay has to be there for the violence to add to. You should had seen how many people bitched and moaned about MOHAA because there was no blood/painskins. I use a blood mod myself, but I still would enjoy the gameplay if I ddin't.

COLINMAN

[USSoldier11B 0]

I voted #2. OFP is pretty good in the fact that anything can get you killed, even doing nothing. You get sent on some FUBAR missions just like what happens in real life. Mission objectives go to shit after intitial enemy contact, you get compromised, captured, hit by friendly fire, shot by your own side if you kill your own dudes. Etc...... I would like to see some flying body parts though. Also parachuting from high altitudes takes way too long. Ever jumped from like 2000 meters? Takes forever to hit the ground.

[Aculaud 0]

yeah, gore would make this game all that much better. Iv seen games get a teen rating for having the kind of violence OFP does. It'd be so satisfying to see some chunks hit the ground with a single bullet to the head. Or to see someone get totally chunkified with a tank shot or soem other explosion.

[Wobble 1]

I would like some bodies fly a bit.. notice how bomb goes off at yer feet and you just fall right over.. or you get hit by a law and you fall ike it was a bullet.. lame.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

I think OFP is more gory than Quake and all the other arcade shooters, somehow.

In Quake I don't give a damn if seeing someone splatter into a 1000 tiny fragments, while in OFP I think death and injury has more impact on a psychological level. It feels more horryfying.

Maybe it's also the sound... the way they cough and fall over when getting hit.

The red liquid doesn't matter that much, it's the psychological level.

The violence it triggers in your mind is much more horrifying than what can be illustrated on a screen.

I showed OFP to a friend who is a Quake-fanatic and he said "yuk!" when the guy in front got his legs shot up.

This is also why splatter movies can't be takes serious... Try comparing them to films like Schindlers List, where they just fall to the ground like a sack of potatoes.

[InqWiper 0]

Where do all these sick people come from?

They wanna see REAL death and REAL suffering?

It doesnt matter how much gore you add to a game, it still wount get close to what I can imagine the real thing to be like.

If you see a real person really get his throat cut for real, its way worse then any game can create with gore. I sure as hell dont wanna see that kind of shit in any game. And I imagine being there and seeing the guy get killed would be even worse. Then imagine you see youre best friend advansing on the enemy and get his legs blown off by a grenade. He starts screaming like a fucking maniac and talking about his family and how fucked up the whole war is. Your telling him he is gonna be fine and prey to God he will not die. You can see his life fadeing away and you wish that this is just a nightmare and you will wake up.

Is that what you want? In that case Ur a fucking psycho and I wish you the worst.

I realize that everyone who wants more gore doesnt want this stuff, but it seems like some people do.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

gotta agree... it seems morbid.

[Aculaud 0]

hey, i voted for the second one too. I think a little bit more of a soldier-of-fortune-esque damage system would make this game all that much more realistic, but i also realize something.

Being desensitized to these things to a certain degree is what makes them so enjoyable. You're right, this would be the most horrible experience possible if it were in real life. The fact that its just a game is what makes it so fun. The fact that there are no emotional bonding between you and your team mates is what makes us able to detatch ourselves from this as a horrible experience, and get the most out of it as a form of entertainment. And i, for one, think that Codemasters and Bohehia Interactive Studios did a damn fine job of making it such an enjoyable game.

[Sith 0]

If this thread is still meant to be about the "war in games" discussion I started a while ago, then some of you guys fail to see my point by miles....

When I say horrors of war, I dont mean simple gore, flying bodyparts, gushing blood, or anything like that. Gore just makes it look less realistic.

When talking about the 'horrors of war', I mean the psychological aspect. Horrors of war are about the dehumanising effect it has on people, the pure sense of fear, disbelief, the horror...the horror...

InqWiper: You will never see anything like real death and real suffering ingame, but no doubt future games will give the player a more emotional view of war. Is this a bad thing? Is this sick? Is it worse to have friends and foes ingame that look/feel more like a real person than just a few pixels on your screen?

If you answer those questions with yes, I think you should take another good look at the games you're currently playing, where you can kill kill and kill without any sense of guilt, without any need to feel bad about it, pulling the trigger without even thinking about the fact that you're technically killing a person. THAT's what I think is sick and morbid.

And please watch your language a bit will you?

[Hardliner 0]

Actually when certain vehicals go bang I do think about the guys in it even tho they are not real. I feel kind of sad for my guys that are in the thing. When I'm American I don't worry as much and not much for the Resistance either. Its a bad thing when a group of tanks targets one single tank and it shatters (but it sounds good). Altho of course it is a game. I guess it depends what mood I'm in.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

It was my point too in my earlier post, that more gore will just make it arcadish and less believable.

Also Hardliner mentions the exploding vehicles - here you don't see any gore at all - not one drop of blood, yet it almost seems more horrifying to see a fully loaded M113 blow up, than to see a squad get shot by rifle fire. I think this underlines my point, that the violence in the imagination is the worst (in this case, imagining the poor souls inside the APC dying a horrible death).

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ Mar. 31 2002,18:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think this underlines my point, that the violence in the imagination is the worst (in this case, imagining the poor souls inside the APC dying a horrible death).<span id='postcolor'>

Yup that's exactly it, what's left unsaid or unshown but often implied is certainly more affecting, it's like a good horror movie, everything should be done in a subtle, sinister way, not the ott method of horror films that modern times bring.

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ Mar. 31 2002,11:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was my point too in my earlier post, that more gore will just make it arcadish and less believable.

Also Hardliner mentions the exploding vehicles - here you don't see any gore at all - not one drop of blood, yet it almost seems more horrifying to see a fully loaded M113 blow up, than to see a squad get shot by rifle fire. I think this underlines my point, that the violence in the imagination is the worst (in this case, imagining the poor souls inside the APC dying a horrible death).<span id='postcolor'>

I understand what you are saying. In a game I played earlier an Ural was bring a squad in for reforcements when it was hit by my air-support and the truck was engulfed in a cloud of smoke. I saw this, but didn't think much of it at the time because I was busy fighting.

But after the battle I walked up to it and the scene was surreal. Some of the squad was dismounted and lying around the truck and the driver was halfway out of the windshield. It was the sickest scene I've ever seen in a game. There wasn't bodyparts lying around or anything, but just the sight of these guys in their death was disturbing.

For fear in a game I can't think of anything other than Aliens vs Pretetor II. I've just played the demo, but man, is it freaky. As a marine just hearing the aliens scuttle about in the shadows around you with a 4 speaker setup, only to catch a glimps of one flash by. The tension is unbelievable!

COLINMAN

[IceFire 0]

Hey day glow, where can I get a demo version of this "Aliens versus predator 2"?

[madmike 0]

I dont think that it needs vast improvement, ATM it would slow you computer right down having 15 people get blown up and their legs n arms flying to look realisticaly.

It would be a nightmare to design this feature having to study how it would happen.

What we have ATM is better than what was in Hidden and Dangerous.

I was impressed when I played the demo and shot the driver in the UAZ and his head went forward covered in blood. From then on I shot the 5ton truck driver as well

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Mar. 31 2002,15:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hey day glow, where can I get a demo version of this "Aliens versus predator 2"?<span id='postcolor'>

Lots of places to get demos

www.gamespot.com

www.gamesdomain.com

www.fileplanet.com

the official site for AvsPII: http://avp2.sierra.com/

COLINMAN

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sith @ Mar. 31 2002,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When I say horrors of war, I dont mean simple gore, flying bodyparts, gushing blood, or anything like that. Gore just makes it look less realistic.<span id='postcolor'>

So youre saying that its un realistic for someone to get blown to bits when hit by an anti tank rocket, or when standing right over a satchel charge that has enough explosive force to take out a tank, or when directly hit with a mortar? I think not.

I may not be a soldier in real life. Quite frankly, just going through boot camp would probably do me in. I'm a gamer, pure and simple. However, if theres one thing that i know for a fact about war, its that the human body is a considerably fragile organism in these types of situations. Humans are highly susceptible when it comes to taking bodily harm, no matter how many pushups your drill sargeant makes you do.

Now, lets say a bomb is dropped in your vicinity that has a blast radius of 100 meters, and your standing 85 meters from ground zero. You may just get tossed like a rag doll without losing any limbs. But if you were standing 5 meters from ground zero, the effects would be rather different, considering youd probably be vaporized a second after detonation.

I'm not vouching for more of the fire-alarm-red blood that spurts out in perfect spheres that arcades have perpetuated in the way that they have, i'm asking for more realism. You dont just fall over like someone pushed you when a high explosive device goes off at your feet. This is by no means a problem for me in OFP, because i think the game makes up for it in pleanty other areas. But due to the recent popularity of discusing weather or not we really want to see "The Real Horrors Of War", whatever they may be, this would be all id ask for if game companies were to actually take us seriously.

[Sith 0]

Aculaud: Like I said....you're missing the point.

When talking about the "horrors of war", I dont mean some nasty images of blown off limbs and such, but the psychological effects of war. If you still dont know what I mean by that, I suggest you go and see some war movies like Apocalypse Now or The Deer Hunter.

You're totally right about the gore and stuff...but that wasnt what we were discussing

[Nagual 0]

I dont want to see the horrors of war in games, or have them in my mind from playing games.

Things like limbs flying after a ffar or something seem like practical game things, not quite horrors, it would add to the game. But i wouldnt want to see the pure hate filled violence and the raping of women and the killing of children, and the manipulation and corruption. I think that is sick.

The pyschologocial effect of seeing these things in games (and taking enjoyment in them) could be very bad. There are schools of thought and investigation in the world that believe the mind cant tell the difference between thinking something and actually doing it. An easy example is research showing visualisation can improve sport performance instead of simply physical practice.

I think that opflash can show the seriousness of war, but luckily not the full insanity making horror of war. Maybe folks would like to see the horror just to learn more about war, as they might have the intention of never fighting in real life. I also think that opflash gives us a chance to learn about some of the "good" things about war, such as in multiplayer; working as team is good for people psychologically, so is cooperating in an intelligent way, or executing strategies against real human minds.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Nagual @ April 01 2002,18:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I also think that opflash gives us a chance to learn about some of the "good" things about war, such as in multiplayer; working as team is good for people psychologically, so is cooperating in an intelligent way, or executing strategies against real human minds.<span id='postcolor'>

... or blow up a BMP without having to pay for it afterwards.

[Sith 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But i wouldnt want to see the pure hate filled violence and the raping of women and the killing of children<span id='postcolor'>

I think we all agree that stuff like this should never be displayed in any game. You can show a very grim picture of war to the player without having to resort to horrible things like this. And besides...a game where you can slaughter innocent children will obviously never get a publisher....or atleast I hope it doesnt...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe folks would like to see the horror just to learn more about war, as they might have the intention of never fighting in real life.<span id='postcolor'>

This is the whole reason why I brought up this matter. There are alot of people out there that want to know what war is really like (to some extend). The thing is that no game to date has showed much or less anything about the horrors of war, so I think it's time a game does that for a change.