Selling Mods and Scripts for Profit

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Against it!

I'm always going to be against any payware addons for ArmA. It would kill the community almost immediately. It happened in FS until the underground trade in ripped addons.

Like Carl Gustaffa the change in the FS community drove me and most of my friends out of the FS scene. Too many people were reselling our Shareware addons for profit. I even ended up in court with a larger studio that had "adapted" my Airbus pack and was selling it for £19.95 in major stores.

So yeah i agree, payware + arma = dead community.

But I cant agree with Carl Gustaffa on this:

I also strongly disagree on protecting content. It will be hacked/cracked/backward enginered asap anyway, making it available at least to those serious about it. Many people wants to do their own small adjustments on addons, at least we do to suit our own "clan use".

There are several reasons to protect (or at least educate the community) addons here as far as i can see:

1) Unauthorised changes to published addons. - This caused me no end of grief with the UK helos in ArmA1 and the recent RKSL Countermeasures. People creating "fixes" and releasing them among themselves caused horrendous problems for us supporting the release and making updates. I've always been of the view that if you want a change for a decent reason than ask the author. At the end of the day if its a fix for you then it may be a fix for others too.

2) Outright theft. - Recent years has seen a rise in addon and IP theft in this community. Look at the number of disputes there has been. People seem to think that addons once released are their own property to do with as they like. In 95% of cases they aren't. If someone wants to make an addon Open Source or Freeware then they will say so. In most cases if you ask an author for the MLODs they give it to you. But some people still steal others work. Most authors will help or donate if they can.

3) Frankenstein Addons - Quite a common issue these days in a lot of communities. People take parts (models textures etc) from various games and stitch the best bits together to make a "new model". No matter how much you rearrange the mesh, no matter where you cut and paste the textures from and to its still stealing someone's work. You wouldn't steal parts of cars in the street to make your own would you? (I know some would but they are hopefully the minority)

A lot has changed since OFP days, far more work is required to get addons in game. The standard of the 2D and 3D work required to gain community acceptance is so high I think its understandable people are getting protective of their content. (i certainly am especially when my models appear for sale on turbosquid etc) Sadly not everyone is willing to respect the work these addon makers do. For my own point of view, the theft of my own models last year brought me to the brink of quitting. Theft and constant abuse from the RM clan and others have de-motivated UKF to the point of quitting.

No i'm not advocating pbo encryption but I do believe people should have the right to protect their work if they so choose. I think that there needs to be more community support and understanding for that goal. I know a lot of the more established teams feel the same. Its not like people wont tell you how they did things if you ask. But taking content without permission for a purpose or mod it wasn't intended for is wrong no matter what excuse you use.

Edited October 5, 2009 by RKSL-Rock

[mattxr 9]

Amen to that Rock.

[mils 10]

I don't you should enforce paying but there are plenty of opportunities for modders and modding groups to receive donations.

I just wish more modders had paypal accounts we could contrib to.

lots of us professionals would love to contrib to their efforts

[icebreakr 3159]

You can always donate me beer-money :)

Edited October 8, 2009 by IceBreakr

[sparks50 0]

I just wish more modders had paypal accounts we could contrib to.

I agree, but Im not sure if donations are perfect either.

A lot of good mods are results of cooperations between several people, and since donations are only likely to be available for someone either working alone on something,

or by several developers active in a clan or similar that will spend money on a clan server, donations could undermine those working on mods that are made in a broad community cooperation, such as ACE, CWR etc. Some of the greatest mods are a result of this.

Im not saying donations should be illegal or something like that, I have myself donated to developers in this community.

But since large cooperations can not easily ask for donations, it could have a negative effect on community cooperations, if donations became a big thing(currently its not).

Edited October 8, 2009 by sparks50

[SGT_2AD 10]

I THANK GOD for BI's willingness to be open and allow such mods to be built at no charge. They are clearly the king of hill in military simulations now, and can control the free market as they like. The support of the mod community(Which I am not) is very impressive from my point of view.

Thank you for a great product! I look forward to buying Arrowhead.

[sparks50 0]

Not everyone agrees with you, especially when it comes to the Arma 2 Visitor Island building tool.

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

Ok lets create some hype on an addon you make your donations an nothing ever got released. But there is an addon pack with 25 new vehicles 5 new soldiers 10 new airplanes 5 new choppers all that for $19.99. Um i think I would buy it. Now if a single unit came out an was asking for $19.99 i would say fuck that. I dunno? kinda would work both ways i guess? IF you got your moneys worth, it would be just fine.b

Edited October 9, 2009 by NZXSHADOWS

[Herbal Influence 10]

Not everyone agrees with you, especially when it comes to the Arma 2 Visitor Island building tool.

Wow --- that's been harsh, sparks50. :(

It's quite impossible for me to imagine that you are that badly bashing BI for just this small piece of additional software which hardly an average gamer of AA2 touches at all and a piece of software that is nothing more than something like a present to the community. May it be bugged or not. You didn't pay for it.

I read all the thread and I sympathize very much with the thought of leaving it all free.

And - don't get me wrong - because (!) I like it to stay so, I think it's good that this topic has been raised.

For capitalism always finds its way.

It's something that's creeping.

And BI did good to not allow to develop things with their software and then sell it.

But is this a reliable system to hinder commercialization in future?

As of today we think: AA2 has always been a niche game, if there is a danger, it's small and far, far away.

But as DR sucks as it seems and more and more people get aware of the genious of BI games ... (I happen to meet more and more absolutely fascinated newcomers online) things can change.

So I would like to arise the question whether it is possible not-to-use the BI development kit and this way be able to commercialize big parts of AA2.

The way the commercialization could then work I can imagine this way:

Clan A gets famous for it's nice weapons, landscapes and vehicles, special addons that increase resolution and at the same time increasing fraps by 50 %.

They managed this all without using the BI development kit.

And clan members invested a lot of work in it.

So, one day, the clan decides - like a golf club - only to let members sign when they are ready to pay an additional fee for playing with that "special developments".

And they go and "license" other clans ... and one day you feel quite naked and alone in the multiplayerarea for it's all red-crossed: "Only Members!"

Can't this be the future, we could indeed be frightened off - ? :eek:

If this is rubbish - all the better ! ;)

[sparks50 0]

I'm not bashing anyone, just pointing at opinions of some others. I'm sorry you took it that way.

[Nanthaka 10]

I think the DLC junkies/console users have invaded this forum. PC modding has always been free and has served as stepping stones into the gaming industry, for some of the best. Tripwire the makers of Red Orchestra for example. Terrible idea, charging for user made content and is not in the spirit of the community BIS spawned.

[anguis 4]

Emotional arguments for/against aside, the biggest problem with paid add ons is everyone in a game/server needs the same add ons. When the add ons are free that isn't a problem as people can just go download what they need if they want. But if the add ons are proprietary then it would be difficult to find a server that allowed you to use them, and unless the mod sold really really well it would be a pretty empty server.

On the other hand, I would happily pay for professionally made single player campaigns.

A bit off topic,

if someone building addons would like to get paid for his work in something else than only the good karma feeling at noticing lots of people enjoying truly his creations, he could just setup a paypal donation system so people thinking they should reward him in money could do it.

For some people creating freeware or other games modding content, it has worked.

ditto

Edited October 20, 2009 by Anguis

[EricM 0]

I wouldn't mind paying for high-quality content, just like Arrowhead. AO is actually partly outsourced to Black Element (or Altar Games ?). If this is what we are talking about, why not.

Opening the possibility of payware (with a licence fee paid to BIS for instance), would allow small studios to dedicate some real talents and ressources (voice actors, modelers, texture artists, original music, cutscenes etc...) for some serious expansions with BIS support and approval.

[Maddmatt 1]

I wouldn't mind paying for high-quality content, just like Arrowhead. AO is actually partly outsourced to Black Element (or Altar Games ?). If this is what we are talking about, why not.

Aren't you mixing that up with Carrier Command? Black Element is involved there. But I'm not sure about OA.

But I agree, high quality professional content that comes with a good campaign is worth paying for. But it needs to be the full package to attract people - units, weapons, campaign, MP missions, map, and new features.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I wouldn't mind paying for high-quality content, just like Arrowhead. AO is actually partly outsourced to Black Element (or Altar Games ?). If this is what we are talking about, why not.

Opening the possibility of payware (with a licence fee paid to BIS for instance), would allow small studios to dedicate some real talents and ressources (voice actors, modelers, texture artists, original music, cutscenes etc...) for some serious expansions with BIS support and approval.

There is a some difference between an expansion pack and payware addons ie individual vehicles like in FSX etc.

I wouldn't object to buying expansion packs if they were of a decent quality and content. It would have to be something special though. Not a repeat of Queens Gambit with retextured units and a tiny island.

[USSRsniper 0]

Opening the possibility of payware (with a licence fee paid to BIS for instance), would allow small studios to dedicate some real talents and ressources (voice actors, modelers, texture artists, original music, cutscenes etc...) for some serious expansions with BIS support and approval.

So people that spend their free time on addons don't have a talent? This is a problem when it comes to payware addons, people will start dreaming about "selling" their addons. Just as FSX, good payware addons but most freeware stuff is crap, because once people become professional they turn to groups that make payware addons...

Edited October 21, 2009 by USSRsniper

[EricM 0]

No, just that professional studios cannot really afford to dedicate their artistic or financial ressources to a mod if they cannot live off it. Real, as in "substantial".