Bayonet/knife poll

[froggyluv 2136]

Wrong, even though I grapple, I would use the rifle butt as my first choice at extremely close range as one strike to the face would stun the opponent. After that the options are many. If you don't think that melee attack is appropriate for a mil-sim despite the many accounts in modern day warfare, thats your perogative mate. But the fact is that H/H is a part of every modern military in the world and it's for a very good reason.

[Dead3yez 0]

Wrong, even though I grapple, I would use the rifle butt as my first choice at extremely close range as one strike to the face would stun the opponent. After that the options are many. If you don't think that melee attack is appropriate for a mil-sim despite the many accounts in modern day warfare, thats your perogative mate. But the fact is that H/H is a part of every modern military in the world and it's for a very good reason.

How many times have you found the need to beat someone up in ArmA(2) ?

For me, like maybe 1/750 kills.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Dead3yez

[manberries 0]

Wrong, even though I grapple, I would use the rifle butt as my first choice at extremely close range as one strike to the face would stun the opponent. After that the options are many. If you don't think that melee attack is appropriate for a mil-sim despite the many accounts in modern day warfare, thats your perogative mate. But the fact is that H/H is a part of every modern military in the world and it's for a very good reason.

Its not just my perogative, or my opinion. Business output equation for H/H with arma engine limitations. Output = cool factor + usefulness - development cost. The "cool factor" wares off quick, and the usefulness is very limited. However, the development costs are two fold. Both the actual cost, and the opportunity cost (that which is given up due to lost time and money). The equation comes out negative with Arma 2 every time. If your asking for a mod, go right ahead. A modded cqc, knife, or bayonet system would be awesome to see. Just the fact that someone could figure out how to create it would be impressive alone. However, to ask BIS to do this is out of hand altogether. In case your about to counter that this is not what is being asked in this thread, note two things. First, this is the official suggestions forum. All suggestions here are meant to be directed at the devs. Secondly, this is the 5th thread this single person has posted on this subject. The titles range from "what do you guys think about.." to "bis should implement this in the next patch." I am not usually a confrontational person on this forum, but I am entirely sick of the ridiculousness of it all.

[froggyluv 2136]

How many times have you found the need to beat someone up in ArmA(2) ?

Well if were talking about my own AI, then often!

Can't tell you how many times when using mods like ACE, I'll have a gun jam in Warfare or CTI at the exact time when an enemy rounds the corner on me. Rather be able to react then sit there with my thumb up my a$$ -but thats just me.

---------- Post added at 05:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------

Its not just my perogative, or my opinion. Business output equation for H/H with arma engine limitations. Output = cool factor + usefulness - development cost. The "cool factor" wares off quick, and the usefulness is very limited. However, the development costs are two fold. Both the actual cost, and the opportunity cost (that which is given up due to lost time and money). The equation comes out negative with Arma 2 every time. If your asking for a mod, go right ahead. A modded cqc, knife, or bayonet system would be awesome to see. Just the fact that someone could figure out how to create it would be impressive alone. However, to ask BIS to do this is out of hand altogether. In case your about to counter that this is not what is being asked in this thread, note two things. First, this is the official suggestions forum. All suggestions here are meant to be directed at the devs. Secondly, this is the 5th thread this single person has posted on this subject. The titles range from "what do you guys think about.." to "bis should implement this in the next patch." I am not usually a confrontational person on this forum, but I am entirely sick of the ridiculousness of it all.

Yeah, I see that. But any way you cut it, ALL suggestions come down to an opinion. It may be your opinion that H/H is not worth the $ + effort that could be used elsewheres. It may be mine and others who feel it is worthy of an official suggestion - and that's all it is, A suggestion -not a fricken demand.

So lighten up Francis!

[oscar19-6-81 10]

in *other* games online ive been stabbed from over 5 yards away. Or, shot the guy once, just wounded him, get stabbed before next bullet leaves the gun. I don't think in reality that the army teach you to just *stab* with a knife. there has to be some kind of grapple. i can see bayonets possibly working, as long as the stabber is gets locked in a long enough stab animation.

They dont teach soldiers how to stab? Ever heard of eskrima knife fighting? Extremly effective even the navy seals train in eskrima.

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

Thats crap. You give a select few stories that are so far and few in between they actually become well know stories; then use that as proof that it is a useful tool in arma 2. Your logic is utterly flawed. Movement is not as smooth or quick as real life. Situational awareness is severely decreased in arma 2. I didn't say any marine did anything wrong in the battlefield. I said you did something wrong while playing a game, which has massive limitations and exploits. If you are working together as a team there will never be a time you need that knife. Not ever. The engagements are far too short in time span for your entire fire team to run out of ammunition during a situation that more cannot be brought in. And as a final note. I don't care how long you have spent grappling; a gun kills quicker. If your rifle happens to be unraised, then you have already made a mistake, but beyond that taking a step back and firing into center of mass is much faster than any move. Ask an Israeli soldier how he deals with an armed combatant within reach distance. The answer is to shoot him. Same goes for the spetsnaz. In case you didn't know. Those two military forces are quite famous for their very effective hand to hand combat styles. Even they know virtually all scenarios require the use of the gun. To put a final nail in the coffin that is your argument. If for some reason your gun was blocked from being raised, and you don't have a secondary, and your teammate isn't next to you, your response would be a grab or trip. As a grappler this should be obvious to you. The answer is not a knife, which is what this discussion is all about. And that's real life, not just inagme.

Ask an Israeli soldier how he deals with an armed combatant within reach distance? The awnser is shoot him? WRONG you cannot shoot an unarmed person! I know exaclty what the israeli soldier would use . KRAV MAGA!

[manberries 0]

They dont teach soldiers how to stab? Ever heard of eskrima knife fighting? Extremly effective even the navy seals train in eskrima.

They do indeed. However, it is mostly for underwater fighting. SEALS have stated the most effective cqc techniques are the barrel strike, a simple pushing blow to the temple of an opponent with the front of the barrel used as a non lethal attack, and various trips and throws from systema one of the three major Russian military martial arts. Indonesian SEALS would argue the other way round though.

---------- Post added at 05:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------

Ask an Israeli soldier how he deals with an armed combatant within reach distance? The awnser is shoot him? WRONG you cannot shoot an unarmed person! I know exaclty what the israeli soldier would use . KRAV MAGA!

armed combatant != unarmed. To steal the full metal alchemists guy thing. If I didnt use the word armed in my original post thats my mistake. If he is armed (be it knife or gun) the israeli soldier will shoot him. Scratch that, the israeli soldier did shoot a lot of them already. Krav maga is a great hand to hand technique but its only for the what if scenarios. Also, the main type of strike used against belligerent unarmed people is the barrel strike (not specifically krav maga). Hmm, we are far off topic now.

[oscar19-6-81 10]

Eskrima is for underwater fighting? Your kidding me right? Since when do the seals fight man to man underwater witch there scuba gear on? Eskrima is a martial art from the phillipines man not underwater fighting.

[Prydain 1]

At this point 27 people have declared that they are utterly fail. Just because sniper rifles don't attach bayonets, it doesn't mean awesome people like me don't get into situations on a regular basis where a bayonet would have been more convenient and realistic.

[manberries 0]

I know eskrima is not underwater fighting, but it is the premiere knife fighting style and trained with in the tank. SEALS don't normally fight anything in anyway underwater, but the SEALS train for it all. The point I made is that the knife is not the cqc weapon of choice for the SEALs either. The main use a SEAL would ever have for the knife is underwater fighting, as a punch is rather useless.

[oscar19-6-81 10]

Well 28 people want knifes and bayonets at this point

[manberries 0]

At this point 27 people have declared that they are utterly fail. Just because sniper rifles don't attach bayonets, it doesn't mean awesome people like me don't get into situations on a regular basis where a bayonet would have been more convenient and realistic.

Yes, because you are such a great sniper to find yourself surrounded, and then are so great to be able to come out of your hiding spot without being shot with the end result of stabbing someone? Seriously, forget this thread. You guys want to continue compiling your anecdotes of how you screwed yourself or how some rare event happened and someone died via the knife go for it. BIS will not implement a knife or any cqc in arma 2. Case closed.

[Prydain 1]

Thank you for bumping the greatest suggestion evarrrr. Enjoy your stay and if you don't like the suggestion please feel free to PM me so I can ignore you without the inconvenience of more than one person seeing your drivel about sniper rifles or how bayonets don't fit in your X35 cockpit.

Bayonets have a wide selection of excuses for their inclusion in Arma2, it may be you have clumped right up to a Cheddar insurgent and need to give him the good news without wasting ammo or endangering allied forces around you, it may be that you need to encourage your team-mates to get off of their arse and be a bit more aggressive, it may be that you are just low or out of ammunition but the best reason is the same reason rifles, machine-guns and anti-tank weapons are in the game -- I will leave you to figure it out.

Cheers.

[oscar19-6-81 10]

Who are you to tell us that bis will not implement it? I mean you seem to do everything in your power to stop it dont ya? Well i hope you get shot by the AI uncountable times when you run out of ammo !! and then you go crying home to mamma begging here to make bis implement a virtual knife!

[Prydain 1]

Yes, because you are such a great sniper to find yourself surrounded, and then are so great to be able to come out of your hiding spot without being shot with the end result of stabbing someone? Seriously, forget this thread. You guys want to continue compiling your anecdotes of how you screwed yourself or how some rare event happened and someone died via the knife go for it. BIS will not implement a knife or any cqc in arma 2. Case closed.

Your inability to read properly is telling.

[schurem 0]

I want CQC in arma2 if only to be able to yell the timeless awesomeness of "Squad! Fix Bayonets!" and then to go out in a blaze of glory.

[Thirdup 0]

Another bayonet thread?

I'm pretty sure that the current game engine doe not allow for melee combat.

No, BIS needn't worry about replacing the current game engine in ArmA2 so we can add knife fights.

Yes, it might make a nice little feature for ArmA3 or ArmA4 (if and when the next game engine supports melee).

Yes, it might present an interesting challenge to one of the mod makers to figure out a way to simulate it.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Ask an Israeli soldier how he deals with an armed combatant within reach distance? The awnser is shoot him? WRONG you cannot shoot an unarmed person! I know exaclty what the israeli soldier would use . KRAV MAGA!

1. Yes i can

2. Why would you want to hurt an unarmed person in ArmA2?

Whats wrong with modding this in? Yes, bayonets are awesome, but arent there higher priority things BI should spend their time on?

Edited August 12, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[Prydain 1]

Who says an expansion pack cannot come out? Why are people so low on options when it comes to practical suggestions but when it comes to fast-rope people have nothing but endless approval for what is a niche application.

Apparently Resistance added no end of improvements to OFP, why can an expansion for Arma2 not be an option?

[froggyluv 2136]

Am I wrong in remembering that Strokefist was in OFP? Ithought it was but maybe that was a mod, that was so long ago...

I agree with Prydain that placing it in an expansion would be pimpin. Damn people get 'edgy' on this subject but it is combat related afterall. I've seen far more irrelevant suggestions than asking for a melee attack :confused:

[Daniel 0]

Forget knifing enemies. Bayonets are used by a large number of forces, and are effective. It's a fact of warfare, it's just baffling to see people arguing against it.

The engine does support it, as it was modded into the 2001 version of the engine wayyy back by a certain PUKF.

Surely the developers themselves would be best suited to implementing it?

And anyway, surely the ability to stab a sword into someone's face over the internet is wanted by all?

[NeMeSiS 11]

Am I wrong in remembering that Strokefist was in OFP? Ithought it was but maybe that was a mod, that was so long ago...

It was but not given to units in the default game. In ArmA1 there was some leftover configstuff but im not sure if you could get it to work by just filling in the config/animations etc. I havent checked in ArmA2.

[oscar19-6-81 10]

Who says an expansion pack cannot come out? Why are people so low on options when it comes to practical suggestions but when it comes to fast-rope people have nothing but endless approval for what is a niche application.

Apparently Resistance added no end of improvements to OFP, why can an expansion for Arma2 not be an option?

I couldnt agree more. I mean i my opinion fastroping is the useless thing in a game like arma 2. So why do people get all snappy when it comes to bayonets?

[DaSquade 0]

Maybe one day the mods will disable the poll fuction as most of them:

A. Don't really contribute anything. I'm fairly sure BIS staff is all to aware of what could 'add' or don't to the gameplay. It is up to them if they want to invest in feature X or Y.

B. Polls like these only result in flamewars because the topic supportors refuse to accept the anti-supports opinions..and will do anything to make them believe other wise.

Personally, voted 'None of both'.

Why, like Manberrie...if you play it tactical and in team, if you ever end up in a case your only defence is stabbing, you are doing it wrong. Meaning, you did at least two things wrong. First you get yourself in the situation where you end up without ammo and you manage to get yourself within arm lenght of your enemy. But it might depends on what your type of gameplay and tactics are offcourse.

I could understand there might be a fun factor and in stealth missions a bayonet or knife would be cool.

Anyway, bayonet and knife features are on the end of my personal wishlist and 'on what should BIS spent his precious time on now'.

Carry on fighting over something BIS hardly lays awake off at night.

[no use for a name 0]

if you want a goddamn bayonet/knife, then learn some modding skills and make it yourself. Starting 8 different threads about it isn't going to accomplish shit now is it?

In my experience with EVERY Arma/OFP game is that you never get close enough to use them. You either get shot, or you get shot.

Edited August 12, 2009 by No Use For A Name

[Prydain 1]

Personally, voted 'None of both'.

Why, like Manberrie...if you play it tactical and in team, if you ever end up in a case your only defence is stabbing, you are doing it wrong.

So your idea of tactical ability does not extend to assaulting bunkers, buildings and other enemy positions?

Anyway I am not calling for it to be included "NAAAAOUUUU!!" as most people seem to do when they are on this part of the forums, I am making a suggestion and so far the only people who oppose it are people who fear it taking development time. You mentioned BIS being able to judge what features will be included by themselves, well exactly, these forums are for suggestions -- nobody is threatening all the useless suggestions just by adding a practical suggestion for once because, as you say, BIS won't ever use this forum for inspiration.

In my experience with EVERY Arma/OFP game is that you never get close enough to use them.

Exactly.

Now can people be a bit more positive.