Does the grass effect the AI, is my game fudged or am i insane?

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I don't mind so much being spotted in grass as much as them being able to pretty accurately hit me where I am. I can not see them, and I can only return fire in a general direction.

How about making the AI checking the human opponents grass setting? If player is prone and his grass is turned on, the AI will take a severe accuracy penalty. The AIs shooting will cause player to feel supressed, causing more inaccuracy on his part. Voila, a firefight without the heavy casualties. Which is at least what I want.

[nouty 10]

I don't understand why there needs to be grass like that if you can't do it properly? It's kind of frustrating cos it's only for show, and only in the immediate vicinity of the player. For example if you're a sniper in mp, laying in the grass, thinking your enemy won't see you, well, guess again, they will because the grass won't be drawn for the other guy where you're laying anymore. It's completely useless in everything but obstructing the players view. Do grass, but do it when you can draw it in the whole map and it will have some actual tactical significance.

[Sniperdoc 0]

But all seriousness aside, i would really like some feedback on this, as i really am quite conviced that the grass does at least slow down the AI detection, and may actually have all the proper LODs this time to block the view without a lame floating green texture like in ArmA1.

Huh? LOD's? LOD refers to a model's level of detail depending on the distance it is viewed. Are you talking Line Of Sight?

[JuggernautOfWar 1]

I don't understand why there needs to be grass like that if you can't do it properly? It's kind of frustrating cos it's only for show, and only in the immediate vicinity of the player. For example if you're a sniper in mp, laying in the grass, thinking your enemy won't see you, well, guess again, they will because the grass won't be drawn for the other guy where you're laying anymore. It's completely useless in everything but obstructing the players view. Do grass, but do it when you can draw it in the whole map and it will have some actual tactical significance.

Amen, brother!

[NeMeSiS 11]

Huh? LOD's? LOD refers to a model's level of detail depending on the distance it is viewed. Are you talking Line Of Sight?

I am talking about the ViewGeometry LOD

[KeyCat 131]

Isn't the "AI seeing thru grass issue" said to be fixed in a forthcoming patch?

/KC

[50.cal 10]

Grass gives a real visual boost but being systematically shot by invisible AI laying prone in tall grass is not really fun.

A fix is needed.

[aulias 10]

The grass does look great and was something about the game that really made me go wow, cool, when I first played it....!!! It reminded me of being a kid crawling around the paddocks playing war etc, really immersive and fun.

But something always felt wrong in game, and after reading this thread I understand why. The AI just kills you too easy when you are "hidden" in thick grass, becasue, you aren't!!

So another vote for this issue getting fixed, its the most annoying characteristic of the game for me right now!!

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

I just checked the bug tracker forum and right now the status is set to "Rejected" Reason: Could not be replicated consistently to prove that AI are affected by Grass."

Also, when it was posted, it didn't receive a lot of votes stating that it was a true bug and wasn't voted on much.

[50.cal 10]

And no modders did actually work on it this time.

Might see a sign that the community is not as enthusiast as it were used to be.

[Maddmatt 1]

Isn't the "AI seeing thru grass issue" said to be fixed in a forthcoming patch?

/KC

The game already has a system where you are less visible when lying in grass. It has significant flaws though. The AI vision isn't actually blocked by grass between them and their target, but you are considered pretty much invisible to AI if you are prone in grass (unless you fire or they saw you go prone, of course).

At least that's what I figure, I don't know how exactly it all works.

@50.cal: There is a mod that shortens the grass, somewhere. Not much else anyone can do until BIS can create a better system.

Top voted issue on the CIT is concerning grass: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/2037

Edited October 12, 2009 by Maddmatt

[50.cal 10]

@50.cal: There is a mod that shortens the grass, somewhere. Not much else anyone can do until BIS can create a better system.

Top voted issue on the CIT is concerning grass: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/2037

Yes it can be done by working on LODs. It has been done for arma1 and it worked well!

Here's the link : http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=2314

[Maddmatt 1]

Yes it can be done by working on LODs. It has been done for arma1 and it worked well!

No, trees and bushes work differently to clutter (grass). Not the same thing at all when it comes to ArmA/ArmA 2.

[50.cal 10]

I can't believe it's not possible to create a transparent low poly LOD over grass areas that actually blocks AI view.

[SwiftyBoy 0]

Didn't ACE for ArmA have the ability to "hide" in it? Or maybe Dave Markwick or someone did it? Basically, it was a "big bubble of hide" which waxed and waned as you moved/fired etc, could a similar function be carried over to Arma2?

Or failing that... an invisible (to me), say, 3 feet high LOS blanket inherent in the "behaviour" of long grass would really polish this up for me. Much as I love this game, I am getting a bit tired of the AI getting laser eyes on me when I'm firing and moving in the long grass...

[KeyCat 131]

The AI vision isn't actually blocked by grass between them and their target, but you are considered pretty much invisible to AI if you are prone in grass (unless you fire or they saw you go prone, of course).

Not really what I experienced while I tested it some time back but I postponed all my AI testing (I'm mostly playing PvsP for time being) in hope for BIS to get a chance to improve things. Would be nice to be able to be hidden in high grass also in MP.

As I said in another thread I kinda expected a bit more out of this "Game 2 AI" then what we currently have and hopefully things will improve down the road and it's still early days...

/KC

Edited October 12, 2009 by KeyCat

[50.cal 10]

I was really exited when I first saw the changelog for version 1.05...unfortunately I didn't noticed any changes regarding AI laser eyes in grass.

It's still the exact same story. They spot you well before you can see them. Then they go prone in tall grass and literally snipe you.-> back to very low terrain detail.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Didnt you people see the first post at all? I could already easily hide in the grass months ago. :p

[walker 0]

This is why I turn terrain detail to "Very Low." So I avoid the handicap

Hi novafluxx

Sorry but IMHO that is cheating.

You are only improving the players ability to see while the AI is stuck with the affects of the grass clutter algorithm.

At 350m in long grass with a suppressed automatic rifle vanilla ArmA II will allow you to kill a 5 man AI squad without them spotting you at all. I have tested this they cannot spot you unless you do additional things such as standing up or moving a lot so as you bust your concealment. When using a non suppressed weapon the AI will localise and spot you fairly quickly. Once spotted they take between 1 to 6 rounds to hit you, this is comparable to what I would take.

300m and under I tend to hit the target first round certainly by the third. I would think the AI overly simplified ego shooter AI if it could not do the same. At 350m I take just under a mag to take out 5 AI.

A non suppressed weapon and the AI will localise the sound and see the puff of smoke fairly quickly as would a human player. Test it your self.

Once again and as Marek pointed out:

THE AI DOES NOT SEE ANYTHING IN ANY GAME!

For the AI Grass clutter is a statistical factor this is true in all games not just BIS's.

Ray tracing eye to object for each AI in waving grass with the entity count in ArmA II would just be too costly in terms of CPU, that said offloading it to the GPU may prove profitable. While I think single ray-trace from object to spotter happens, just because you can register a pixel of a target in grass does not mean you would recognise it!

So one must use a statistical model.

Until we have decent real object heuristic recognition algorithms in games the AI does not recognise anything. Instead the game state knows all the time where all targets are, and applies a statistical probability to whether and how much a particular AI knows about the subject.

I think distance, surface that the target is on, previous experience of the subject, camouflage, object and subject type and capability, speed of movement, stance and noise produced, all play their part in that statistical calculation; incidentally firing a loud gun with smoke coming out of the end makes even a single pixel obviously a target.

Maybe number of pixels ray-traced after a probability threshold is reached also plays its part but the AI does not see anything, to do that the human brain sorts complex factors from information given by the human eye in a neural area devoted to pattern recognition that has developed by evolution for over five hundred of millions of years back in the Cambrian age or may be even the Precambrian era; as well as a personal lifetime of experience to the problem of recognising a subject. This is not what any game does; ArmA like every other game applies some kind of probability formulae that approximates human ability.

I am sure BIS are trying to match human capability to spot to their algorithm but short of sticking human eyes and a human brain inside every computer it will always be an approximation.

I am not saying such debates should not take place like Marek and Suma I hope that one post in such a thread can come to some new insight that improves our understanding of what is after all one of the most researched and studied subjects in computer software.

I am just going over the basics of the debate that has been discussed many times, so we do not repeat ourselves for the umpteenth time.

Interestingly ArmA is an ideal tool with which to test and experiment in this subject area, anyone one know of any grants going? As I am interested in money for research.

Kind Regards walker

Edited January 12, 2010 by walker

[50.cal 10]

Hi novafluxx

Sorry but IMHO that is cheating.

Dear Walker,

I wouldn't consider turning down terrain details to low as cheating when you have an AI that uses as a tactic to go prone in grass in order to shoot you while you can't see them.

If you go prone in grass you can't see jack and you wont be able to shoot at anything. It should be the same for the AI...anything else is cheating.

Edited January 13, 2010 by 50.cal

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Tactics = Fire and maneuver. Using ACE you can employ smoke that works even after you've been spotted, in vanilla it's near impossible to get smoke to work this way.

AI has the upper hand wrt seeing through grass. We have the upper hand wrt employing tactics and not thinking in an algorithmic way but instead use terrain better to our tactical advantage.

Grass is a realistic friend or enemy in real life, but in Arma2 it tends to be an enemy due to the way we play. If you find yourself in a bad spot due to grass, I'd say planning failed, so you need to adopt to the developed situation. Get into solid cover and call in indirect support, instead of insisting to shoot him from a position where he sees you but you can't see him. Throw grenades, have others suppress the position with MG and M203 fire while you egress in a cover of smoke.

As grass is no longer the FPS killer it was in Arma1 (and in some of the betas), I'm considering it a cheat to allow turning off grass even in coop games, as you have some people being able to do and see stuff that others can't giving them an unfair advantage compared to those who wants to play realistically.

I wouldn't mind if something was done to improve the situation about grass, as it gives the AI an advantage, but I don't think it is an advantage that can't be overcome with a little bit of maneuver and fire support.

[-Shifty- 10]

Crysis has the best AI spotting system

[nuxil 2]

CarlGustaffa

...

I'm considering it a cheat to allow turning off grass even in coop games, as you have some people being able to do and see stuff that others can't giving them an unfair advantage compared to those who wants to play realistically.

...

i dont see how its cheating..

if you lay in the grass. you cant see shit.

now if you look through ai eyes.. you see everyting. even if you are laying down in the grass.

so if it suppose to be realistic. ai isnt suppose to see you when both you and ai is laying down in the grass. but they do.

therfor i rather play with grass off.

[zolop0 10]

Tactics = Fire and maneuver. Using ACE you can employ smoke that works even after you've been spotted, in vanilla it's near impossible to get smoke to work this way.

AI has the upper hand wrt seeing through grass. We have the upper hand wrt employing tactics and not thinking in an algorithmic way but instead use terrain better to our tactical advantage.

Grass is a realistic friend or enemy in real life, but in Arma2 it tends to be an enemy due to the way we play. If you find yourself in a bad spot due to grass, I'd say planning failed, so you need to adopt to the developed situation. Get into solid cover and call in indirect support, instead of insisting to shoot him from a position where he sees you but you can't see him. Throw grenades, have others suppress the position with MG and M203 fire while you egress in a cover of smoke.

As grass is no longer the FPS killer it was in Arma1 (and in some of the betas), I'm considering it a cheat to allow turning off grass even in coop games, as you have some people being able to do and see stuff that others can't giving them an unfair advantage compared to those who wants to play realistically.

I wouldn't mind if something was done to improve the situation about grass, as it gives the AI an advantage, but I don't think it is an advantage that can't be overcome with a little bit of maneuver and fire support.

Overwatch, Fire Support and cover fire are needed to be used in Arma 2 at all times. I totally agree with the last sentence of this quote. The place where the battle is happening (at least in its fiction) has a very low population so overgrowth grass and other should be happening most of the time.

Also 3 videos you need to watch, as the AI cannot see through grass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6mI410K_ZU&feature=related

There REALLY needs to be a sticky for this game for people (any who is just new to this game, not any particular person) who don't seem to understand how much work BI put into the AI. See above videos. Nothing is scripted, it is all done by the AI. BTW if you keep firing from a position even with tall grass they WILL suppress that area even if they DON'T see you (again check videos above).

Oh and solid point...

Hi novafluxx

Sorry but IMHO that is cheating.

You are only improving the players ability to see while the AI is stuck with the affects of the grass clutter algorithm.

At 350m in long grass with a suppressed automatic rifle vanilla ArmA II will allow you to kill a 5 man AI squad without them spotting you at all. I have tested this they cannot spot you unless you do additional things such as standing up or moving a lot so as you bust your concealment. When using a non suppressed weapon the AI will localise and spot you fairly quickly. Once spotted they take between 1 to 6 rounds to hit you, this is comparable to what I would take.

300m and under I tend to hit the target first round certainly by the third. I would think the AI overly simplified ego shooter AI if it could not do the same. At 350m I take just under a mag to take out 5 AI.

A non suppressed weapon and the AI will localise the sound and see the puff of smoke fairly quickly as would a human player. Test it your self.

Once again and as Marek pointed out:

THE AI DOES NOT SEE ANYTHING IN ANY GAME!

For the AI Grass clutter is a statistical factor this is true in all games not just BIS's.

Ray tracing eye to object for each AI in waving grass with the entity count in ArmA II would just be too costly in terms of CPU, that said offloading it to the GPU may prove profitable. While I think single ray-trace from object to spotter happens, just because you can register a pixel of a target in grass does not mean you would recognise it!

So one must use a statistical model.

Until we have decent real object heuristic recognition algorithms in games the AI does not recognise anything. Instead the game state knows all the time where all targets are, and applies a statistical probability to whether and how much a particular AI knows about the subject.

I think distance, surface that the target is on, previous experience of the subject, camouflage, object and subject type and capability, speed of movement, stance and noise produced, all play their part in that statistical calculation; incidentally firing a loud gun with smoke coming out of the end makes even a single pixel obviously a target.

Maybe number of pixels ray-traced after a probability threshold is reached also plays its part but the AI does not see anything, to do that the human brain sorts complex factors from information given by the human eye in a neural area devoted to pattern recognition that has developed by evolution for over five hundred of millions of years back in the Cambrian age or may be even the Precambrian era; as well as a personal lifetime of experience to the problem of recognising a subject. This is not what any game does; ArmA like every other game applies some kind of probability formulae that approximates human ability.

I am sure BIS are trying to match human capability to spot to their algorithm but short of sticking human eyes and a human brain inside every computer it will always be an approximation.

I am not saying such debates should not take place like Marek and Suma I hope that one post in such a thread can come to some new insight that improves our understanding of what is after all one of the most researched and studied subjects in computer software.

I am just going over the basics of the debate that has been discussed many times, so we do not repeat ourselves for the umpteenth time.

Interestingly ArmA is an ideal tool with which to test and experiment in this subject area, anyone one know of any grants going? As I am interested in money for research.

Kind Regards walker

Edited January 14, 2010 by zolop0

[walker 0]

Hopefully this **** is fixed by the time i get the game in 2 months.

The one thing i cant stand in games are AI that see me while im prone in a bush over 200 feet away.

Hi WMike20052

Do not worry as long as you did not run behind the bush while the enemy could see you or fire from the bush with a gun or dance around in it creating a hulabaloo, they will not know your there if they are even 10 feet away; this has been tested thoughroughly in ArmA many many times here is a video about it:

As you can see the Myth about AI seing you through a Bush is an Urban Legend.

Kind Regards walker