Tank commander separate view

[EDcase 87]

I think this was mentioned in a different thread but didn't find it.

As a commander in a M1A1 I had a friend as gunner.

I know the commander .50cal is on top of the turret but his view should NOT ROTATE with the turret.

Its just IMPOSSIBLE to use the commander weapon when the main gunner is swinging the turret around and your view is all over the place.

PLEASE please fix in 1.03 patch

Thx

Edited July 19, 2009 by EDcase

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

For the real life M1A1, afaik, the commander's machinegun on top of the turret does rotate with the turret. For this reason, the turret (and also the tank) should be immobile when the tank commander mans the .50 cal.

The problem in ArmA II is that the tank commander has no direct control over the turret (irl, the TC can override the gunner) and the gunner's actions (irl, the TC can order the gunner not to rotate the turret). :(

[.kju 3240]

Made an addon to fix it. Available in the other thread.

Official release later today.

[EDcase 87]

For the real life M1A1, afaik, the commander's machinegun on top of the turret does rotate with the turret. For this reason, the turret (and also the tank) should be immobile when the tank commander mans the .50 cal.

The problem in ArmA II is that the tank commander has no direct control over the turret (irl, the TC can override the gunner) and the gunner's actions (irl, the TC can order the gunner not to rotate the turret). :(

Yeah, I guess it would be like that IRL but for the sake of gameplay I would vote to have the commander view separate so the turret rotation is ignored.

Made an addon to fix it. Available in the other thread.

Official release later today.

Great news, thanks!!! Of course it would be better to have it built into the game instead of having lots of scripts running in the background.

Edited July 20, 2009 by EDcase

[S7_Mega 10]

Scripts are scripts, either in the vanilla version or with an addon.

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

The problem in ArmA II is that the tank commander has no direct control over the turret (irl, the TC can override the gunner) and the gunner's actions (irl, the TC can order the gunner not to rotate the turret). :(

correction:

I was wrong, actually, the Tank Commander can take control of the gunner and the turret by using the "watch there" command (for example : F2 then Alt, choose a direction, then press the middle mouse button). The command can be used on the fly and is very useful to prevent unexpected turret rotations.

Yeah, I guess it would be like that IRL but for the sake of gameplay I would vote to have the commander view separate so the turret rotation is ignored.

I agree, when I can find it I will give a try to kju's mod too:D (thanks kju!)

[frederf 0]

If you set the gunner to safe mode without a target he'll keep the turret at the "home" position... most of the time.

[.kju 3240]

keepcommanderviewontarget_gameplay_c_proper.7z

[frederf 0]

I've just done some testing with the M1A1. The AI gunner turret nervousness is pretty fixable if you just keep a steady "watch there" target. It's pretty annoying but at least it has a quick fix. What's truly bad is when they decide to slew onto a target which spins everything around. This goes second for once they kill a target, whooshing away from it.

However, despite all this I find the M1A1 completely controllable from an AI-crew point of view.

What I cannot stand is the IR radar and tab-fire arrangement added with ArmA2. I will get an IR dot for an enemy long before he's visible, often through trees, houses, and even hillsides. The AI shoots through smoke or trees with perfect accuracy even beyond render range. This far outstrips concerns about commander turrets in terms of having a destructive impact on gameplay.

[kremator 1064]

Ty for the fix kju. Works perfectly.

[MQ-9 Reaper 10]

I've just done some testing with the M1A1. The AI gunner turret nervousness is pretty fixable if you just keep a steady "watch there" target. It's pretty annoying but at least it has a quick fix. What's truly bad is when they decide to slew onto a target which spins everything around. This goes second for once they kill a target, whooshing away from it.

However, despite all this I find the M1A1 completely controllable from an AI-crew point of view.

What I cannot stand is the IR radar and tab-fire arrangement added with ArmA2. I will get an IR dot for an enemy long before he's visible, often through trees, houses, and even hillsides. The AI shoots through smoke or trees with perfect accuracy even beyond render range. This far outstrips concerns about commander turrets in terms of having a destructive impact on gameplay.

Yes, this command makes the M1A1 much more controllable.

It is a bit more difficult for vehicles like T72, LAV-25, BMPs because the commander view is a bit more narrow and sometimes fixed.

But, I have found out that if the "watch there" command is used and the vehicle commander don't forget to order "stop" during the fight it makes things easier (reminder : don't try to fight on the move with old tech vehicles :D).

I agree with you concerning the radar (btw: leaves, hillsides sometimes provide good concealment/cover).

[kylania 567]

keepcommanderviewontarget_gameplay_c_proper.7z

Is this hosted anywhere I don't have to sign up for "something" in order to download it? :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Wonder if busy and tweaking kju will update his Proper projects at DevHeaven. :)

[Mudkip 0]

Isn't the commander's turret stabilised IRL?

[BigJonnyC 10]

I believe in reality the commander of a tank ( at least on M1A2/Challenger/T-90) can slave the main turret to his sights. Meaning he can scan for a target, and then rotate the main gun to face it and have the gunner fire.

IE:

Commander: *scanning battlefield* "Target 3 O'clock" *ranges target and rotates turret* "LOADER, APC 1800m, HESH"

Loader: "UP"

Commanger: "GUNNER FIRE" *bang*

Gunner: "Round Away" Etc.

Commander should have total independence of the main turret and have the abilty to turn it towards a locked target.

[Apocal 10]

I believe in reality the commander of a tank ( at least on M1A2/Challenger/T-90) can slave the main turret to his sights. Meaning he can scan for a target, and then rotate the main gun to face it and have the gunner fire.

The commander actually has two views he uses, on the M1A1, the gunner's primary sight extension which just displays whatever the gunner sees and the CWS, which is his caliber fifty. He doesn't have an independent sight really and the CWS can in no way be used to control the turret.

Now on the M1A2, there is a commander's independent thermal viewer (CITV), which allows the commander to scan for targets. But we don't get that in ArmA.

[BigJonnyC 10]

The commander actually has two views he uses, on the M1A1, the gunner's primary sight extension which just displays whatever the gunner sees and the CWS, which is his caliber fifty. He doesn't have an independent sight really and the CWS can in no way be used to control the turret.

Now on the M1A2, there is a commander's independent thermal viewer (CITV), which allows the commander to scan for targets. But we don't get that in ArmA.

Ah thank you for clearing that up, The A2 recieved new thermals after the urban kit upgrade didn't it?

[Apocal 10]

Ah thank you for clearing that up, the A2 recieved new thermals after the urban kit upgrade didn't it?

CITV came with the M1A2... around 1996, IIRC. They might have upgraded the thermals since then, I haven't been keeping track of the A2 as much.

[Apocal 10]

Ah thank you for clearing that up, The A2 recieved new thermals after the urban kit upgrade didn't it?

Just to answer your question; M1A2SEPs with TUSK applied mainly haven't had the RWS added, so they still have a pintle mounted 50. And those without the RWS do not have a thermal for the caliber fifty. As for the gunner's primary sight, the M1A2SEP did recieve 2nd generation thermal imager, as well as the M1A1SA.

On the other hand, M1A1 TUSKs (any/all variants) with the old CWS do have a thermal sight added to the 50, which is nice because you fire the fifty from under armor, at night, accurately and effectively.

In either case, most of either version A1 or A2 now have a semi-remotely operable loader's MG, with remote thermal sight added, an AN/PAS-13 Medium or Heavy. Effective detection range is something around 1.5km for a man-sized target for the heavy variant. The loader gets an eyepiece which displays the thermal image and he operates the weapon from behind his gunshield, so mostly under armor with that method.

Additionally, all of the M1A2SEP-specific networking systems, most notably the IVIS, have been supplementated by newer systems like FBCB2/BFT and added to M1A1 under the M1A1AIM (Abrams Integrated Management) and M1A1SA (Situational Awareness) upgrade programs. AFAIK, this is also coming under the Marine Corps' M1A1FEP (Firepower Enhancement Program) which includes a laser rangefinder with 10km range, the 2nd generation thermal imager, various networking and situational awareness enhancements.

On top of all this, all Abrams have been undergoing armor upgrades as they rotate back to the factory for depot-level maintenance, bringing them up to M1A2SEP standards.

Cliff notes version:

-M1A2SEP got new thermals.

-M1A2/M1A2SEP with TUSK has thermal for RWS, but most do not have RWS installed.

-M1A1AIM/M1A1SA/M1A1HC with TUSK most likely do have thermals for commander's 50, as it's already a fired from under armor.

-Any variant with TUSK can have new loader setup with thermal and gunshield.

-By 2010 all Abrams in the fleet will be one of three types; M1A1SA or M1A2SEP for the Army, M1A1FEP for the USMC.

-All three types have equal armored protection.

[masonkiller 11]

keepcommanderviewontarget_gameplay_c_proper.7z

I know this is an older thread but I'm bumping it in hopes of finding a non-broken link for this

[rowdied 44]

I know this is an older thread but I'm bumping it in hopes of finding a non-broken link for this

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/proper-projects/wiki/PROPER_projects

Try there and scroll till you find it.

[maturin 12]

correction:

I was wrong, actually, the Tank Commander can take control of the gunner and the turret by using the "watch there" command (for example : F2 then Alt, choose a direction, then press the middle mouse button). The command can be used on the fly and is very useful to prevent unexpected turret rotations.

And then your gunner's mind is broken permanently since nothing on the face of the planet will make him look anywhere else.

[Beagle 684]

And then your gunner's mind is broken permanently since nothing on the face of the planet will make him look anywhere else.

Not true, he will still react to other threats and targets given by tabbing. Aso the no target command and a short switch to gunner seat will fix the padlock.

[maturin 12]

Aso the no target command and a short switch to gunner seat will fix the padlock.

Not for me. The Watch There command is retained once the gunner switches seats.

To cancel Watch There, Watch Direction and Scan Horizon behavior, I have to kick the gunner out of the tank, tell him no target, then have him get back in.

Edited May 2, 2011 by maturin