Multiplayer lag/stutter on moving objects

[twirly 11]

I've been with this game and it's predecessors for ten years and have spent an enormous amount of time learning about it. Too much actually!

About a year ago I thought right...I know enough to be able to script some cool multiplayer stuff for me and my two buddies to have some fun.

You can imagine the horror...when after nine years of dedication I discovered that multiplayer is simply not going to happen with this netcode. I tested and tested and tested. Got down to 1 (one) AI and me on a dedicated server and the AI still f*cking warped!!

Talk about "feel like a fool".......after spending all those years digging and learning scripting and reading the hype about how big the multiplayer battles can be. It can't even do a multiplayer with one dude without problems! LOL!

I stick with it because I love scripting....and maybe because I don't want to think about the countless hours which will have been lost if I never get to play properly online with my mates. I can't say all "lost" because like I said ....I enjoy writing code. Just wish I could play.

So to those of you that think the netcode is going to get better....don't hold your breath!

[Leopardi 0]

It's a pretty damn big issue so they should try fixing it harder. It's practically impossible to do long range shooting on moving enemies with normal infantry weapons, let alone sniping.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Leopardi

[twirly 11]

I've played on several servers; but usually only play on one or two and have never had serious warping..............and I'm on a crappy DSL with ~90ms ping

First off ~90 ms ping is not crappy!!! ....but I simply cannot understand when people say they play this online without warping! This just totally blows my mind.We must be talking about two different things!!

I have spent weeks on this on several different occasions with my own dedicated server running on a 3.0 Ghtz Dual Core on a LAN and still get the warping with only me and one AI.....and from the amount of complaints here....I am not alone.

Can someone please post a multiplayer video on You-Tube without warping or "beaming" as I have also seen it refferred to. I think a lot of us would just love to see this.

I had a look just now on You-Tube and there are none that I can find. There are many with complaints about warping/beaming....but none without! I personally simply cannot believe it until I see it!

Edited September 23, 2010 by twirly

[no use for a name 0]

First off ~90 ms ping is not crappy!!! ....but I simply cannot understand when people say they play this online without warping! This just totally blows my mind.We must be talking about two different things!!

I have spent weeks on this on several different occasions with my own dedicated server running on a 3.0 Ghtz Dual Core on a LAN and still get the warping with only me and one AI.....and from the amount of complaints here....I am not alone.

Can someone please post a multiplayer video on You-Tube without warping or "beaming" as I have also seen it refferred to. I think a lot of us would just love to see this.

I had a look just now on You-Tube and there are none that I can find. There are many with complaints about warping/beaming....but none without! I personally simply cannot believe it until I see it!

Well I don't know what else to tell you; I usually don't get it. Either that or I just don't notice it (which I highly doubt)

[UNN 0]

Can someone please post a multiplayer video on You-Tube without warping or "beaming" as I have also seen it refferred to. I think a lot of us would just love to see this.

I had a look just now on You-Tube and there are none that I can find. There are many with complaints about warping/beaming....but none without! I personally simply cannot believe it until I see it!

I typed MP Arma2 and got this as the first video. Can you point out the warping?

In fact it's easier to find Mp sessions on You Tube where you don't see any warping, than it is to find examples where you do. I'm not sure what you have been doing these last "nine" years, but this sort of over reaction kind of makes you look like a Troll.

There are some things to take into account:

Stuttering:

Is a result of the net code, it's easy to see. Jump in a fast moving Heli in MP as the gunner, with someone else flying it.

Or have two people fly in fast moving jets in formation. Observer how smooth each aircraft looks from the perspective of the other. Vary the distance between them to see how it changes.

This can be addressed, in VBS2 stuttering between aircraft and vehicles has been considerably reduced.

Stuttering with optics\distant objects, is another issue. Objects further away from the player, are not updated as quickly as closer objects. To see this, get an aircraft to fly over your position. Lock onto it and watch how the position of the lock is updated as it moves further away.

Warping:

This is usually down to the server\connection issues. The most common example I can think of is when your following a another player in a vehicle. On some servers you see the lead vehicle, suddenly veer off the road and start to drive around in circles. Depending on how bad it is, you will see the vehicle snap back into position at some point.

While some of the above can be addressed, none of it prevents you from enjoying some amazing online games.

Don't over tax your server, kick high pings, don't write bad MP scripts and don't expect miracles.

[twirly 11]

Stuttering:

Is a result of the net code, it's easy to see. Jump in a fast moving Heli in MP as the gunner, with someone else flying it.

Or have two people fly in fast moving jets in formation. Observer how smooth each aircraft looks from the perspective of the other. Vary the distance between them to see how it changes.

This can be addressed, in VBS2 stuttering between aircraft and vehicles has been considerably reduced.

Stuttering with optics\distant objects, is another issue. Objects further away from the player, are not updated as quickly as closer objects. To see this, get an aircraft to fly over your position. Lock onto it and watch how the position of the lock is updated as it moves further away.

Warping:

This is usually down to the server\connection issues. The most common example I can think of is when your following a another player in a vehicle. On some servers you see the lead vehicle, suddenly veer off the road and start to drive around in circles. Depending on how bad it is, you will see the vehicle snap back into position at some point.

Thank you....exactly what I was saying :) Have you not read the rest of this thread or have you just decided to call me a "troll" because you think that's makes you a big man?

Edited September 24, 2010 by twirly

[UNN 0]

Thank you....exactly what I was saying

No, what you were saying was, the game is unplayable and that everyone suffers from it all the time.

Which is clearly not true on both accounts :)

or have you just decided to call me a "troll" because you think that's makes you a big man?

I said you come across like a Troll, because of your outlandish claims. I had two options, either your trolling or your throwing a childish tantrum. If it's the latter, then yes, you do make me feel like a great big, mature man :)

[twirly 11]

You know what they say about big men don't you. LOL!

[Infam0us 10]

No, what do they say?

[[vs-uk]jones 10]

Big Socks?

[Leopardi 0]

is this issue on the community tracker?

[twirly 11]

is this issue on the community tracker?

For sure.....it's been a problem for ten years!

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

is this issue on the community tracker?

For sure.....it's been a problem for ten years! :mad:

[Maystor 10]

Is it normal that I'm experiencing very noticeable stutter in MP with AI soldiers running only 100m away from me? At 200m it is just terrible, major stuttering issues and warping. I'm coming from Operation Flashpoint and although I immediately noticed it online I thought it was due to the server or high ping or something. Then I ran the editor, put ONE soldier on Utes airport, set all the graphics options to low and low resolution so I could have really high FPS, setup a dedicated server, connected to it from my own computer and to my horror, the soldier still stutters and warps when he's moving! In Operation Flashpoint, a soldier needs to be really far away for this to happen and it still isn't nowhere near as bad. Can anyone please confirm this? I thought the netcode was supposed to be improved?!

[no use for a name 0]

Is it normal that I'm experiencing very noticeable stutter in MP with AI soldiers running only 100m away from me? At 200m it is just terrible, major stuttering issues and warping. I'm coming from Operation Flashpoint and although I immediately noticed it online I thought it was due to the server or high ping or something. Then I ran the editor, put ONE soldier on Utes airport, set all the graphics options to low and low resolution so I could have really high FPS, setup a dedicated server, connected to it from my own computer and to my horror, the soldier still stutters and warps when he's moving! In Operation Flashpoint, a soldier needs to be really far away for this to happen and it still isn't nowhere near as bad. Can anyone please confirm this? I thought the netcode was supposed to be improved?!

From my experience I would say no, that' isn't normal. Even if/when I do get warping it's usually only on targets several hundred meters away, and I'm looking thru a scope/acog.

Maybe it's a combination of Arma and certain network settings/hardware? I'm really clueless about this problem because I've never seen it as bad as some people reporting here

[Sabbath 10]

I never played OP Flash on multiplayer, I played ARMA for about 10 minutes on single player and never played it again so I can't say whether those games had the warping or not. ARMA 2 though, when shooting at the enemy from a few hundred metres is nigh on impossible. My opinion on this is server lagg. The reason being is that when I am in multiplayer and flying a heli solo or driving a HMV solo it is as smooth as silk, whereas if I am a passenger in a heli or HMV then the heli or vehicle jumps all over the place because the heli or vehicle is running to the pilot/drivers connection speed and not mine.

I remember when ARMA 2 first came out playing the EVO maps, I would be on the runway in the MHQ waiting for the plane to pick me up. 2 minutes later I would say to my mate on Team speak, "whenever you are ready I am on the runway", his reply was " what do you mean, I have allready picked you up and am halfway to the battle". So he was flying to the battle with me in the MHQ on his computer,and on my computer I was still sat at the base in the MHQ with my mate hovering above me in the plane.

The worst part about this warping for me on some servers is trying to hit a heli with a stinger.

[Maystor 10]

Thanks for your replies. Here's the thing. Three of us were about to upgrade our rigs and move away from Operation Flashpoint to ARMA 2. We always play coop so smooth AI performance in multiplayer is a must. We live close to each other so the ping is usually very low and we sometimes play in LAN too. Currently, we only have one copy of ARMA 2 and only one computer capable of running it.

Are my methods of testing by running a dedicated server and then joining from the same machine flawed then? If i put one infantry squad on the map and set myself as the squad leader, all my AI move perfectly smooth. The AI from other groups and the enemy AI with assigned waypoints are terribly jerky however, as if they were human players with high ping problems which obviously isn't the case as the ping is 0. Doing the same in Operation Flashpoint results in very smooth motion of all the AI players all the way up to 600-700 meters. Could ARMA 2 possibly have worse netcode than Operation Flashpoint? I would really appreciate it if someone would do a similar test just to see whether this is normal or not. If that's what ARMA 2 really works like in LAN then we are going to have to stay with Operation Flashpoint because the difference in smoothness is really like night and day. I've tried changing MinErrorToSend in config files to lower values and it doesn't help much at all.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Maystor

[visceralsyn 10]

Running a dedicated server and a client on the same machine, isn't flawed.

Its retarded.

The dedicated server's whole purpose is to be run on a machine thats not running a client, so that everything non-rendering related does not waste processing power.

The settings for the dedicated server, by default are not set for LAN speeds, they are set for a 1Mbps upload. So some simple math for LAN:

MaxMsgSend=16384

MinBandwidth=92000000

MaxBandwidth=100000000

MinErrorToSend=0.001

Sadly if you try a MinErrorToSend any lower it disables it, and is stutter festival. With those 3 settings, on a 3.0Ghz Wolfdale Xeon CPU server, running Mandriva 2010.1 Linux. There is no desync, and little stutter at the beginning of the mission, when there is normally desync, which gradually goes away as the mission went on. Tested with Benny's 2.066 Lite CO.

...Syn...

Edited December 20, 2010 by VisceralSyn
typos and other grammatical errors, as usual...

[Maystor 10]

Running a dedicated server and a client on the same machine, isn't flawed.

Its retarded...

Thanks for clearing that up :) I realize what the purpose of the dedicated server is. It's just that there is no other way I can think of to see what the game will perform like in LAN aside from buying another computer and another copy of the game which isn't very convenient. We have of course tried playing online but we always get high-ish ping so everything is stuttery by default which is precisely why we've rarely ever played Operation Flashpoint online too.

We would be buying new computers solely for ARMA 2 because that would be the only game that we play that requires better hardware than what we have now. What you are saying makes perfect sense, but isn't hosting the game on one computer and having the other two join in LAN kind of similar to what I'm doing now though? Because that's how we play Operation Flashpoint: the best computer hosts the game and is also a player, the other two join in LAN and everything is perfectly smooth. Having one AI soldier on the map stutter like mad when moving is worrying me considering there is no stutter whatsoever for AI soldiers in my group when I'm the squad leader. I'm just hoping it isn't like that by design because that would be pretty terrible.

[visceralsyn 10]

High-ish ping, means you and your friends don't live near each other. And, 200ms or more is high-ish ping.

If you are going to build a new machine, the dedicated server requirements are not that high for left over parts. Since it doesn't do rendering, a powerful, aka expensive video card is not needed. Dedicated servers biggest requirement is powerful CPU. Goo-gob's of RAM is always good, for either servering or clients.

As for listen server hosting, sooner or later you are going to run a mission that has alot of scripts, or AI. Or worse, alot of scripts and AI. And both of those require proccessing power, to not stutter in-game.

I remember the same stutter in Operation Flashpoint, the AI near you isn't stuttering as much, because you are hosting a Listen Server. Which runs best for the host.

Even with low gaming groups, 3~4 clients, a dedicated server, serves best.

LAN gaming helps you the most, because bandwidth requirements no longer are an issue.

The Operation Flashpoint, ArmA, ArmA² default settings for the dedicated server is for 1Mbps up. I've always used the dedicated server, so am not sure if the settings in the config file do anything for the Listen Server. It would be retarded if they didn't.

...Syn...

Edited December 20, 2010 by VisceralSyn

[PsychoPigeon 10]

i get the same shit. 40 ping, but other people lag too me and the AI etc. Servers just can't handle Arma? What the hell did we pay for.

[Maystor 10]

High-ish ping, means you and your friends don't live near each other. And, 200ms or more is high-ish ping.

We do live near each other. We get a 25-35ms ping when playing Operation Flashpoint between each other. It's when we try to play with other people online that the ping goes to 200+ which is why we just prefer to play coop with only three of us. Both with 30ms ping online or 0 ping in LAN, Operation Flashpoint works just fine and it's only the soldiers at very high distances that don't move smoothly.

It is trying to playing ARMA 2 online that brought the whole lag issue to my attention. I knew what 200ms ping gaming was like in Operation Flashpoint and I immediately noticed how ARMA 2 seemed even more laggy. Running a dedicated server and client on the same machine has so far given me terrible results but then again, as you said that method is beyond flawed. To illustrate, going to a hill 100m from Utes airport and telling soliders in my group to run to the other side, all of them move perfectly smooth. However, if instead of having my own group I put another group in the editor and give them the same waypoint, they all move like they were human players with 300ms ping. Surely they didn't make the netcode in such way that it's only soldiers from your own group that have huge priority in "refreshing" their position and everything else is extremely laggy? Because I don't really see the point of that. Isn't it just as, if not more important to have enemy units as lag free as possible?

[visceralsyn 10]

However, if instead of having my own group I put another group in the editor and give them the same waypoint, they all move like they were human players with 300ms ping.

Out of pure curiosity, what are the specs of the machine you are running this on?

...Syn...

[Maystor 10]

i get the same shit. 40 ping, but other people lag too me and the AI etc. Servers just can't handle Arma? What the hell did we pay for.

Hmm, that's not good. Have you played Operation Flashpoint? I know it has never been known as a game with good netcode but from what I've seen so far it is super smooth compared to ARMA 2 which I was actually expecting to be better.

Out of pure curiosity, what are the specs of the machine you are running this on?

...Syn...

Core 2 Duo E7600, 4GB RAM and an ATI 4870. Not very good but I believe it should be enough to have one AI soldier on the whole map moving smoothly? Because when I preview the said scenario in the editor, everything works flawlessly even when I add multiple groups of soldiers. When I run the server and connect from the same machine, the same mission turns into a complete lag fest. I suspected the machine simply isn't powerful enough but I don't get why do soldiers from my group move perfectly smoothly then :confused:

[visceralsyn 10]

Core 2 Duo E7600, 4GB RAM and an ATI 4870.

That CPU is fine to run the game, but you are running a dedicated server, and then the client on the same machine. Think of it as effectively running 2 instances of the game. The dedicated server is process intensive alone. You are not really, seriously wondering why its a lag festival running 2 process intensive applications, with one process having to also render graphics? In which rendering graphics is process intensive on its own?

Do note, Operation Flashpoint was released in 2000, or 2001. A dual core CPU made in the last 4 or 5 years, oughta run that ancient game pretty dang-gumbed effectively. ArmA, and ArmA² while both are running on the same engine that has been updated, and updated. It Got significantly larger. More process intensive, not just from the environment sizes, the amount of AI it supports, the sheer volume of scripts it can run at the same time.

Oh yeah, the closer to an object you are, in most games, provides more updates. So it typically should be smoother.

...Syn...

Edited December 20, 2010 by VisceralSyn
typos and other grammatical errors, as usual...

[Maystor 10]

That CPU is fine to run the game, but you are running a dedicated server, and then the client on the same machine. Think of it as effectively running 2 instances of the game. The dedicated server is process intensive alone. You are not really, seriously wondering why its a lag festival running 2 process intensive applications, with one process having to also render graphics? In which rendering graphics is process intensive on its own?

I know, it makes total sense that running both the dedicated server and the client on the same machine would case the lag. But I still don't understand how come the soldiers from my own group are perfectly smooth under all circumstances and yet having one single enemy AI soldier with zero scripts or anything causes him to stutter heavily while moving. Overclocking the CPU and setting all the graphics options to lowest possible makes the FPS skyrocket but there is still zero difference in lag. If the AI soldiers from my group run together with other AI from another group, it's still the same: the former are perfectly smooth while the latter are very laggy and jumpy. It is obviously a feature then but I still don't believe all the other AI are THIS laggy in LAN by design. Not many or any videos of ARMA 2 being played in LAN on youtube sadly.