Enemy has great vision at night? Mythbusted!

[flake 10]

Here's a small test I just made. I'm in the open grass with an enemy squad passing by. They can't see me even though it's not really dark and they get quite close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWMEep73aGQ

So.. I guess they use their ears to locate you.

hah, cool! shoot them in the back

[froggyluv 2136]

Thanks for the video Llauma. For thoose who have ArmA II and wan't to test it would be nice to know what AI settings you used in this test (both in X.ArmAProfile and skill slider in editor) and date as well as time of day in editor.

I have the feeling that people who experience "uber AI" plays with (to) high AI settings. Maybe some of you are used to high AI settings in OFP/ArmA but that doesn't mean it is a good/balanced setting for ArmA II?

However, since I'm still waiting for the 505 release I can be totally wrong!

/KC

I can attest to the fact that skill sliders make a very big difference in the Ai's spotting ability. I've tested the sniper shot many,many times while trying every fricken degree of the skill slider and higher skill always meant better spotting. I really like this fact as it makes intel critical before starting a mission: Are you trying to infiltrate a base guarded by Greenies or Spec Ops? Better adjust your gameplay respectively!

[Undeceived 392]

Nevertheless I don't know if it's ok that the mods just modify thread names - this could also be abused. And I think that the reader (me included) would automatically see the "myth being busted".

But the mods here are allowed to do all, so it's ok then.

About the video:

Dammit, this last video is just breathtaking! Very tenseful.

Looking forward to see other videos like that. Maybe the vision of the AI indeed is a problem?

Llauma, can you give the enemies NVGoggles to see if they detect you?

[walker 0]

Nevertheless I don't know if it's ok that the mods just modify thread names - this could also be abused. And I think that the reader (me included) would automatically see the "myth being busted".

But the mods here are allowed to do all, so it's ok then...

Hi all

In reply to Undeceived:

I think it is a perfectly valid use of the moddies powers.

The purpose of the forum is to inform not misinform. Some one raised a myth with a title about AI being able to see in the dark. The Myth was left to lie upon the forums until some one did the experiment that disproves it. Most other game forums the person would have been banned and the thread locked.

The original title would misinform people who were interested in playing the game.

So the moddies corrected the misinformantion that is their duty. If some one wrote a thread with a title that said something incorrect about some one, or a product, the moddies are obligated to change it.

Kind Regards walker

Edited June 12, 2009 by walker

[llauma 0]

Thanks for the video Llauma. For thoose who have ArmA II and wan't to test it would be nice to know what AI settings you used in this test (both in X.ArmAProfile and skill slider in editor) and date as well as time of day in editor.

I have the feeling that people who experience "uber AI" plays with (to) high AI settings. Maybe some of you are used to high AI settings in OFP/ArmA but that doesn't mean it is a good/balanced setting for ArmA II?

However, since I'm still waiting for the 505 release I can be totally wrong!

/KC

It's standard expert mode with a default guerilla group. Though the guerilla group doesn't have that high skill level by default.

While typing this I felt tempted to do another test with higher skill levels. Just as previously it's 7 AM at cristmas day 2008. This time I turned up the skill level to maximum and I let the squad pass me by so close that two soldiers passed 1 metre on each side of me. Still I managed to remain hidden.

[walker 0]

Hi Llauma

Nice to know we will be able to do proper stealth missions.

Kind Regards walker

[frederf 0]

Hey, the mods do what they want. It's also against the rules to talk about what they do which is brilliantly Orwellian.

The two videos in this thread show very different situations. One is medium speed and high stance and the other is stationary prone. Thinking about it from the reverse situation, 20m away someone running at me through the trees at my 11 o'clock would be detected. In the pitch black night (remember gamma and brightness were increased in the video) I probably wouldn't be able to target the actual man directly like the AI did. I'd probably shout a "Halt!" or something, take a knee, and in a few seconds area fire the general vicinity.

The prone passing just shows that if the AI doesn't have you yet it can be avoided. I think the knowsAbout builds over time so I wonder how much lead time the patrol had since editor start and the pass by. I'd like to see the same test if the player engaged the patrol, ran back 200m, and then was prone as the AI walked by. The AI might redetect a whole lot easier than the initial detection.

Edit: The AI can hear us walking... can we hear them?

[llauma 0]

Llauma, can you give the enemies NVGoggles to see if they detect you?

They kill me as soon as I'm in their line of sight.

[Placebo 29]

Hey, the mods do what they want. It's also against the rules to talk about what they do which is brilliantly Orwellian.

If we mods did "what we want", there'd be significantly less people on this forum as I'd ban a lot more people who come here just to act like morons who believe that a developer having a forum gives them a god given right to say what they please in any manner they please, sadly I and the rest of us do not do "what we want", we do what we feel after many years of experience is in the best interests of the forum and the community here as a whole. I've moderated these forums for 8 years now, I moderated them the same way in 2001 as I do in 2009, there's 1000's of people that have been around since those early days that still come back here and are part of this community, so to me that says I'm doing something fairly right.

As the rules clearly say, you are allowed to discuss moderating issues directly with a moderator if you take umbrage at a decision, you are also allowed to publicly discuss aspects of the rules and the moderating in the Ask a mod thread as long as the discussion is general and not specifically tied to a certain issue. If these forums were as Orwellian as you like to imply then you'd find 1. you have no right to reply, 2. anyone who did try to voice their opinion would be "disappeared".

[ScorpionGuard 10]

Hello to those of you who are new to the game/simulation of ArmA II. As in other threads in the form. New people have a hard time with the AI being too human. Are not to human. This is one case where the complaint is the AI being to human. Human can see at night during a moon phase, Ai can see at night during a moon phase. Human can hear at night without a moon phase (no moon), AI can hear at night without a moon phase. We here at this community can't complain about what we ask for. More realism from the AI. For if we get what we wait. The game/simulation will get harder to play. Which I personally would love. For thinking is a part of war and the battle field.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I think the fundamental cause of this is the ego booster shooters such as COD which mistrain people into thinking their oponents should be easy to beat.

People are so used to linear battles against scripted AI that when placed in a dynamic environment against good AI they blaim the game for their inability to use proper TTP.

I do not think their inability is due to them. I blame it on the negative training they get from badly made Ego Booster Shooters. The ones that do not teach the difference between cover and concealment. That vaunt the Rambo charge and teaching blasting away stood up in the middle of the street. The bunny hoppers.

The Ego Booster is a passive form, realy just a glorifed film with bad acting. They look to pasify their customers with an ego boosting; "Yes you are a good sheep." pat on the back and look to herd them along from one checkpoint in the coridoor to the next and out to buy the next version for another fleecing.

Sadly walker

Edited June 13, 2009 by walker

[USSRsniper 0]

Hi all

I think the fundamental cause of this is the ego booster shooters such as COD which mistrain people into thinking their oponents should be easy to beat.

You are 100% correct. First time I played OFP 1 I was mad at the game when I was getting killed. You spend 10 minutes on the mission and you get killed out of nowhere :mad: But for many people this first impression is enough and they just go to the BIS forums and blame the game.

Hehe, imagine new player from COD experience this first time playing ArmA. In coop he spends 20 minutes on briefing then he runs for 30 minutes without any action and when the action happens he is the first one to die. This is how he would feel ---> :cry2::936: Just using Zeus gaming night experience as example....

Edited June 13, 2009 by USSRsniper

[Maddmatt 1]

If we mods did "what we want", there'd be significantly less people on this forum as I'd ban a lot more people who come here just to act like morons who believe that a developer having a forum gives them a god given right to say what they please in any manner they please

I like that idea :D

Anyway, so according to the tests by Llauma, we are nearly invisible to AI at night when prone and they don't have NV goggles. Pretty much how I remember the black op missions in OFP. Just go prone and it's like you have turned invisible - unless you have already been spotted.

Makes sense that they see well with NVGs, so does the player after all.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maddmatt

[marcodarco 10]

Hi all

I think the fundamental cause of this is the ego booster shooters such as COD which mistrain people into thinking their oponents should be easy to beat.

People are so used to linear battles against scripted AI that when placed in a dynamic environment against good AI they blaim the game for their inability to use proper TTP.

I do not think their inability is due to them. I blame it on the negative training they get from badly made Ego Booster Shooters. The ones that do not teach the difference between cover and concealment. That vaunt the Rambo charge and teaching blasting away stood up in the middle of the street. The bunny hoppers.

The Ego Booster is a passive form, realy just a glorifed film with bad acting. They look to pasify their customers with an ego boosting; "Yes you are a good sheep." pat on the back and look to herd them along from one checkpoint in the coridoor to the next and out to buy the next version for another fleecing.

Sadly walker

I was just trying to show how quickly they know your exact location and shoot. not trying to show my stealth skills. I have much patience for this game, and did not just come on this forum to blame the game becus its not like Call of duty.

Ive been with the series ever since its started.

I admit, maybe the video was not the best to show the issue and I except that.

Are people able to look past that and see the issue that 'they' can pinpoint, and fire without the need to search a noise?

[An Fiach 10]

I was just trying to show how quickly they know your exact location and shoot. not trying to show my stealth skills. I have much patience for this game, and did not just come on this forum to blame the game becus its not like Call of duty.

Ive been with the series ever since its started.

I admit, maybe the video was not the best to show the issue and I except that.

Are people able to look past that and see the issue that 'they' can pinpoint, and fire without the need to search a noise?

You seem to be missing the point, you are claiming that there is an issue, and your 'proof' is no indication that there is an issue. If you were backlit by the moon it would have been that much easier to shoot you. You seem to be under the impression that the AI should behave as if it were peace time and they are just out there walking to the chow hall or something casual. It is war time and they are on a combat patrol, you have to assume that in their own territory they know if someone is supposed to be out there or not, if they aren't they get shot. Also at that range it isn't hard to hit you, even in the dark so they don't have to 'know' your exact position in order to hit you.

[mr reality 0]

I did a test in pitch black, where i walked up to the AI until i got his attention. He didn't shoot, but i walked back, deffinatley out of hearing distance, and i circled him. He was looking at me all the time i was moving. No matter where i went he never lost 'sight' of me.

Now considering the player can't even see there own weapon in pitch darkness, this does come off as a little unfair.

[marcodarco 10]

I had the same thing before aswell, that once they have spotted you thats it!

[CHB68 10]

IMHO nothing has changed or improved compared with ArmA1.

• The AI still shoots out of the fog w/o any visual contact
  
• They are able to aim you through overthrown trees and bushes
  
• Injured Tank Crews trace you immediately after leaving their tank and are still sharpshooters
  
• AI does not need any binoculars
  
• AI does not need a any gunsights, especially on long distances
  
• AI does not need any nightgoogles on short distances
  
• AI is still using the "wall hack" to trace you behind walls and you kill immediately once you are on sight.
  

But the most annoying and meanwhile frustrating bug is the "50% buddy". 50% on this side of the wall, 50% on the other side. You don't see him, but he hits when you come a long, no matter what side you are. For me this is not "artificial intelligence" but rather "cheated". ArmA 1 was able to realize this "feature" w/o wasting a core.;)

[metsapeikkoo 10]

IMHO nothing has changed or improved compared with ArmA1.

• The AI still shoots out of the fog w/o any visual contact
  
• They are able to aim you through overthrown trees and bushes
  
• Injured Tank Crews trace you immediately after leaving their tank and are still sharpshooters
  
• AI does not need any binoculars
  
• AI does not need a any gunsights, especially on long distances
  
• AI does not need any nightgoogles on short distances
  
• AI is still using the "wall hack" to trace you behind walls and you kill immediately once you are on sight.
  

But the most annoying and meanwhile frustrating bug is the "50% buddy". 50% on this side of the wall, 50% on the other side. You don't see him, but he hits when you come a long, no matter what side you are. For me this is not "artificial intelligence" but rather "cheated". ArmA 1 was able to realize this "feature" w/o wasting a core.;)

Yeah and ofcourse since you just couldn't be bothered to do any researching whatsoever, AI abolutely-positively-doesn't-have-the-ability-to actually hear am I right?

[CHB68 10]

Yeah and ofcourse since you just couldn't be bothered to do any researching whatsoever, AI abolutely-positively-doesn't-have-the-ability-to actually hear am I right?

Researching ? Well, I played ArmA for the last two and a half years and got my copy of ArmA 2 on May, 29. I know what I'm talking about, What about you ? And please don't tell me you have not noticed this "little odd things" playing ArmA. Maybe we do not talke about the same game.....;)

[dmarkwick 261]

You are 100% correct. First time I played OFP 1 I was mad at the game when I was getting killed. You spend 10 minutes on the mission and you get killed out of nowhere :mad: But for many people this first impression is enough and they just go to the BIS forums and blame the game.

Hehe, imagine new player from COD experience this first time playing ArmA. In coop he spends 20 minutes on briefing then he runs for 30 minutes without any action and when the action happens he is the first one to die. This is how he would feel ---> :cry2::936: Just using Zeus gaming night experience as example....

In OFP there was a "paint ball" mission, I don't know if it was an official one or one that came with an addon, but it was just a 4 vs 4 shootout, in a fenced off area with sandbags and objects for cover. Small area, so lots of activity, and it endlessly repeated so as soon as 4 people on one side were killed, it all kicked off again.

That mission more than any other mission I ever played in OFP showed me the value of cover & concealment. I knew one guy once who complained about OFP being too difficult, one day in MP I followed him, and he did stuff like:

Run into the middle of a field where a tank was, and try to use an AT weapon against it.

He wouldn't have even crouched unless the weapon animation hadn't forced it, I never saw him take cover of try to hide in any way at all, and he always wondered why he constantly got killed. I put him onto that mission and he improved.

Not greatly, but noticeably ;)

[walker 0]

Hi all

Death is a great trainer as Darwin pointed out.

Kind Regards walker

[ryan80 10]

maybe super AI is enabled by default in arma 2.