Enemy Accuracy way to good.

[Operation Currywurst 10]

Walker you might be right with all your tactics and stuff...but that doesnt change this:

The ai is unhumanly good at spotting its enemies (the worst situation is when both you and the ai lie on the ground - you cant see anything because of the grass and the ai pics you off easily).

[avibird 1 155]

I have to say the game is a little lopsided. Since I can barely see my target and I keep getting shot. I will approach from some distant tree covered (375 yards away) mountain and I get spotted EVERY time. I am convinced I should have never been seen. To top this I played a few games with generated enemies in the Editor. Enemy was outfitted with AK-47's with iron sites. I'm sitting quite a ways away with a sniper rifle and they are still hitting me anywhere I go.

So before you attack.... take a step back and tell me what I am doing wrong or what I should be doing... because I am taking every precaution like sneaking up on them to using sniper rifles so I am far far away and its almost instant death from fire coming from the skies. Its not Fade I have a legal copy. I know that this is a very realistic simulator and have played this type of game for many years. But fair is Fair.

This statement makes me laugh.

I know that this is a very realistic simulator and have played this type of game for many years. But fair is Fair.

Yo pal if you never played OFP1 or ARMA1 you never played a game like this. You have been playing the wrong games for years LOL. Go slower and only shoot once then get the hell away wait and then shoot again and run away and hide ect ...............

[Daniel 0]

I still reckon BIS should have added an accuracy slider to troops in the editor. That way the mission designer can choose the marksmanship ability of each unit to reflect the scenario.

If ArmA is anything to compare it to, the overall precision probably needs tweaking down a little.

[walker 0]

Hi Operation Currywurst

Do the experiment

Go into the editor

Place A player via random placement and 1 AI via random placement in a field.

Make sure the angles you are looking at are equal.

Make a table in Notepad to record the kills.

Play ten times see who comes out on top

Make the mission available to others to repeat your experiment.

@ [CAS] Daniel I agree on the accuracy slider, I would love other things to be alterable in the editor too.

Kind regards walker

Edited June 6, 2009 by walker

[MBot 0]

MoS apparently you can knock down grass arround you to get better LOS on the enemy. Also fire at gun flashes and the sound of fire same as the AI does, they can be supressed.

You will only flatten the grass where you are, you still have it directly in front of you. Ground vegetation got denser and higher in Arma 2, unless you are firing from a down-slope or up a hill, it is extremely hard to fight from a prone position. I almost always have to get on me knees to see anything at all (which is of course en invitation to shoot me). The AI on the other hand will fight happily from the prone position/shoot you when your prone because for them there is no grass. Combine that with almost invisible gun flashes past some meters and no tracers for most guns and you are in for some nice frustration. To locate the enemy position by sound is next to impossible in Arma 2. I am ok with all those limitations, but since they do not apply to AI, it gets really hard.

With the advance of graphics the complexity of the scenes got so big that spotting the enemy has become a major challenge. I have been shot repeatetly by an enemy lying 5 meters in front of me in the grass without me being able to spot him. I finally got him by shooting blindly in the ground! This complexity of the scenes and the effectiveness of camouflage is great, but it is obvious that the AI works in a less complex world. I bet changing all the graphic options to minimum makes the game a lot easier, because it brings your senses closer to parity with the AI.

Edited June 6, 2009 by MBot

[froggyluv 2136]

Agree that some tweaking is warranted here although I don't find it as insanely bad as ARMA first release. HS is right that the global linking should have room for error to better humanize the AI. The individual AI do not know exactly where you are though -even at close range, when you are behind cover.

- Ran a test 8 times in the editor where I start behind a short cover wall with enemy AI about 20 meters away with their back turned. I take a shot either at his leg or near it, then drop. Using 3rd person, I can see he doesn't always know where the shot came from, even if I crawl slowly behind the wall. When I pop up, he quickly adjusts his shooting position or throws grenade, but once I duck down again, I can lose his tracking.

[Majormauser 0]

This statement makes me laugh.

I know that this is a very realistic simulator and have played this type of game for many years. But fair is Fair.

Yo pal if you never played OFP1 or ARMA1 you never played a game like this. You have been playing the wrong games for years LOL. Go slower and only shoot once then get the hell away wait and then shoot again and run away and hide ect ...............

yup looks like I will have to change my game.... But the AI does know where you are through walls and vegetation which needs to be looked at. I'm learning what level I need to be at. Its impressive that you guys are there already... thats where I want to be and now its killed and killed again.....grrrr

Edited June 6, 2009 by Majormauser

[walker 0]

Hi Majormauser

I spent months in the OFP demo getting killed and killed and killed and... but I leaned to crawl and to hide and when to shoot and when to run away and how to be sneeky and when to freeze, to watch my buddies and all the rest.

It took a long time.

And that is before we get to using armor, controling AI squads, then platoons, then companies, and finaly battalions and then doing the same in MP.

BUT at least I never realy died.

some times I think I am quite good but not as good as many and only a bullet away from being stupid.

Kind regards walker

Edited June 6, 2009 by walker

[Operation Currywurst 10]

Cant really test it in editor cause I dont know how to make the two face each other and to make them start in a prone position.

Curry

[Killerwatt 0]

It cant be stressed enough. There is a difference between cover and concealement and you must learn this difference if you want to survive. As soon as you fire on the enemy, you have potentialy given up any concealement you may have had and it will be possible that you will be struck by the first shot. On the other hand cover will stop the enemy being able to hit you with their bullets, but may also prevent you from shooting any of them. So to be effective, you must use a combination of cover and concealement when planning and executing your attacks. Most importantly, remember that cover usually provides concealement but concealement wont necessarily provide cover.

[walker 0]

Hi Operation Currywurst

The editor is your friend and a right of passage in ArmA. This is from ArmA I but I do not think it has changed that much.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_Mission_Editor#Units_Mode_.28F1.29

You need to change the Azmut, you can also select click and hold an inserted unit then press shift at the same time as left mouse drag round to face the right direction.

To get your AI to go prone just give it waypoint

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_Mission_Editor#Waypoints_Mode_.28F4.29

Then set it to stealth in Behaviour

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_Mission_Editor#Behaviour

The ArmA editor is the best bit of ArmA

@Killerwatt the word Stewart the word :notworthy:

Kind Regards walker

Edited June 6, 2009 by walker

[Majormauser 0]

Cant really test it in editor cause I dont know how to make the two face each other and to make them start in a prone position.

Curry

cool Idea!! Looking at editor for the first time...:D

[smeg head 10]

It also took me a long time in the OFP Demo to learn that you could not simply sprint around the map expecting to pop everyone from the standing position. If you move around everywhere whilst standing up, you will just get detected and shot

If you suspect the enemy is nearby, tap the 'F' key and you move cautiously like a sneaky ninja

Going prone and crawling is also a great way to be stealthy :) But it is very slow

[Majormauser 0]

Cant really test it in editor cause I dont know how to make the two face each other and to make them start in a prone position.

Curry

Getting somewhere....

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/setUnitPos

Set unit position rules. Mode may be one of:

"DOWN" - unit goes prone and stays prone.

"UP" - unit stands and stays standing.

"Middle" - Kneel Position. ArmA version 1.04 (Unit will not kneel if it is unarmed)

"AUTO" - unit chooses mode according to circumstances.

[MBot 0]

Can anyone tell me where I can set shooting skill and intelligence separately? In the game options there is only a general skill slider per side and the skill setting is missing in the arma2.cfg.

[moosenoodles 0]

Can anyone tell me where I can set shooting skill and intelligence separately? In the game options there is only a general skill slider per side and the skill setting is missing in the arma2.cfg.

In the user profile in the arma folder in your documents area on C:

There are flags for regular easy all that difficulty settings and you will see in each there are areas you can adjust, accuracy is one of them for AI. Standard entry seems to be 8999998 or something like that, tone it down to 6777776 and go from there..

Worth a try :D

[malkuth 0]

Yeah the enemy AI is good shots.

Some of the missions suck though with these super shots. That being that if you lose 1 squad mate you lose the mission.

And keeping your guys alive is very hard sometimes.

Ad in the great cover we have, and the blending in its very hard to spot the AI VERY HARD.. And yes the AI has an Edge over the Player.

I don't care what anyone says in this thread. I have played, when your squad mates are calling out badguys a half mile away, and you can't even see anything yet. Then the AI cheats.

Then you look at your map and you see the guys they are spotting really are a half mile away. Its crazy.

[Operation Currywurst 10]

Still cant get us to start prone (this waypoint hingy doesnt work/i dotn get it to work).

Without the waypoint stuff it goes like this:

We both start standing and both of us go prone immedietly -- he will start shooting at me and kill me even if i moving to the side when being prone. Due do teh grass I cannot see him but - same situation for him only he can still see me.

However I did find out how to confuse the ai. I didnt go prone but simply startet running tot he side - the enemy woudnt shoot at me. He would start shooting as soon as I stop running or if i run straight towards him.

Curry.

[avibird 1 155]

Yo pal if you never played OFP1 or ARMA1 you never played a game like this. You have been playing the wrong games for years LOL. Go slower and only shoot once then get the hell away wait and then shoot again and run away and hide ect ...............

yup looks like I will have to change my game.... But the AI does know where you are through walls and vegetation which needs to be looked at. I'm learning what level I need to be at. Its impressive that you guys are there already... thats where I want to be and now its killed and killed again.....grrrr

Hey I have played OFP1 since 2001, ARMA1 for a few months and still play OFP elite a few times week. Yes it sucks that the AI are that good but they do have some limits in combat. I don't know how the AI are and what limitations they have in ARMA2 but if you want to find out just setup different firefights with the editor and watch how the AI move and fight with different waypoints and behaviors. In the elite we had a cheat unit that could not die so it was easy to sit back in the middle of a fight and just walk around and watch.

In the old games lets say you were going to take out a man in a group of units you had about 3 seconds to take out all the units in that group before all units in that sector was alert and would be looking for you. So if you are by yourself that is very hard to do, only if the group was on a safe waypoint and next to each other could one person take out a whole group of units with an MP5.

Yo need to mess with the editor and just watch different reactions and just have a better awareness of combat in the game. This is were the game is so different from other games AI.

[Majormauser 0]

yup looks like I will have to change my game.... But the AI does know where you are through walls and vegetation which needs to be looked at. I'm learning what level I need to be at. Its impressive that you guys are there already... thats where I want to be and now its killed and killed again.....grrrr

Hey I have played OFP1 since 2001, ARMA1 for a few months and still play OFP elite a few times week. Yes it sucks that the AI are that good but they do have some limits in combat. I don't know how the AI are and what limitations they have in ARMA2 but if you want to find out just setup different firefights with the editor and watch how the AI move and fight with different waypoints and behaviors. In the elite we had a cheat unit that could not die so it was easy to sit back in the middle of a fight and just walk around and watch.

In the old games lets say you were going to take out a man in a group of units you had about 3 seconds to take out all the units in that group before all units in that sector was alert and would be looking for you. So if you are by yourself that is very hard to do, only if the group was on a safe waypoint and next to each other could one person take out a whole group of units with an MP5.

Yo need to mess with the editor and just watch different reactions and just have a better awareness of combat in the game. This is were the game is so different from other games AI.

AVIBIRD the AI can hit me behind rocks... I'm Prone with a sniper rife they are set to private and low experience and I am still getting spotted behind hard cover. They may be able to see my foot from 400 yrds. If this is the way its been for 5 years they really need to look at this and fix it... because realism is not happening here.

[MoS 0]

Of course I know that the grass around me flattens when I lay down (although this wasn´t the fact in the early versions of ArmA I...) but it doesnt change anything. The AI can see and shoot through bushes... combined with a forrest you have no chance against AI as you cant see anything and they can see you from several hundres meters away and kill you instantly.

This is a vid I made and already posted in another topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7csaLjZt8pU

Hope you understand now...

[Xenios 0]

Of course the AI can shoot through bushes. So can you. They can't see through them, but they can hear through them. And they learn your position from their comrades. There's a function in the programming of the BI AIs called 'knowsabout'. They 'knowsabout' a unit either by direct line of sight, sound, radar, or they learn the location from a squadmate. They will continue to 'knowabout' the last known position of that unit even after they can no longer see, hear, or learn anything about it for a short time. They will continue to shoot at an enemy's last known position even after it has secretly moved. You can observe this behavior in the editor. Draw their fire, duck behind solid cover and crawl away. They will continue to shoot at your previous location, not where you have moved to.

I don't believe the AI actually cheats, but I do believe they have an edge when it comes to camouflage in this new cluttered environment. All the camo types (East and West) in Arma 2 are very effective, but to the AIs' eyes there's no difference between MARPAT and a guy in a white labcoat. I think this is one factor why it seems harder even to those of us who've been playing since the OPF demo.

And they are very good at pinpointing sounds. If you don't have 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound then you are at a disadvantage compared to the AI. Headphones do not compare to well placed surround speakers. I rely heavily on my speakers to get a bearing when I hear the distinctive sounds of Kalashnikovs. I can then pop up from cover already pointing within a few degrees of the enemy. I find myself depending on this a lot more than I ever did in Arma 1.

We do have several new advantages against these superior AI. I rely more on optics and binocs to scan ahead. Binocs are a lot handier to use now that we can move around and change postures. We can quickly duck down (and pop up again) behind low cover like stone walls by pointing the gun straight down. This is much quicker and more intuitive than slowly going prone behind cover. And when things really hit the fan and I start to panic, I start throwing smoke and pulling back. Just don't fire through the smoke--they can't see you but will know your location by sound and return fire.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Xenios

[walker 0]

Hi MOS

The Experiment

Great video. Do the same 10 more times to get a statistical basis from which to make an argument then make the mission available for others to run the experiment with.

Of course initiative is also important and the two kills could have been down to that.

So on this single data point the AI is somewhere between 2 and 3 times less effective than a human.

So in fact the AI is too easy not too hard. I realise you have been playing in the past against stupid scripted AI like in COD4 etc. which has lead you to think your opponents should be easy to kill. This is what the COD4 and other publishers do to fool you by boosting your ego, by the way; I finished COD 4 in 2 days and gave it away after a week, too simplistic.

Marek says they are about 5 times less effective incidentally

Tactical options and pointers

Moving forward to take a knee behind the tree in the foreground and to observe the enemy and for your first single shot might have been an option.

Second should have been a grenade smoke or frag.

Or start with smoke then two grenades then break contact and ambush those left from a reverse slope or from a position of defilade 200 m back and 100m to one side, preferably with a satchel along line of retreat.

Or fire one shot pop smoke, leave a 90 second timed satchel and detonated it early if they were in hot pursuit.

Pointer Looked like the person used several bursts per target, every round increases your enemies understanding of your position both from smoke, sound and flash.

If it was a surpise contact I would have popped smoke broke contact and retreated to a reverse slope after first shot

At the very least I would have moved after giving away my position with the first shots. Even just rolling to your side each time you fire can help give you a few more vital seconds. Crabbing sidewards is quieter but slower.

Of course tactically your up against a 4 to 1 advantage any way four pairs of eyes and ears to your one pair. So you were in a bad position. In future do not let your self get into that position.

Kind Regards walker

Edited June 6, 2009 by walker

[fabrizio_t 58]

Played OFP, ARMA and currenly playing ARMA2.

I've just run a campaign mission featuring some pitched fights in a forest and i should tell that despite 8 years of gaming experience that was a real nightmare.

The opposing force was ridiculous - just about 8 units - against me and my 4 razor specialists.

It was extra-hard spotting enemies through foliage for me.

On the contrary enemy AI targeted us easily and friendly AI did just the same good job.

At the the end i've scored just 1 (ONE!) kill, the other enemies were entirely taken out by my squad mates.

Consider that i had to reload the mission 6 times to get it done (half the time cause one of my mates kept being killed).

I can't tell for sure if the AI is cheating or not in spotting you, but the thing i am pretty sure is that it's firing now is too accurate.

Some more dispersion is definetely needed, especially for suppressive fire.

Luckily there's a quick and dirty way to get things somewhat fixed: open your XXX.ArmA2Profile and lower the "precisionFriendly" and "precisionEnemy" values to 0.60-0.80 depending on your taste.

BTW: and then watch out for friendly fire ;)

Edited June 6, 2009 by fabrizioT

[Alex72 1]

Hmm i thaugh it varied a lot. Now i havent played ARMA2 too much but the situations i got into was some very bad shots and some very good. Especially the marksmen AI were good - wich they should be. At one point i had the enemies spraying bullets all around me while i went up to my AI that was hurt. I dragged him away still with bullets flying around my head - i never got hit! :)

To me i felt ARMA2 was perfect! I want the good old ArmA style where you NEED to move from cover to cover etc. Not just run all visible and hope to save the day. That is for BF2 and all of those games.

Alex