New tactics required?

[Scrub 0]

I was just thinking of all the info confirmed lately, the features, effects, details, and the AI's interactions with them. All these possibly add up to some subtle and not so subtle combinations. Will the AI retreat while they still have cohesion and some force left? And since they can advance under cover, can they retreat the same? Thinking of the whole picture. I wonder if there are going to be new situations that have never really happened in a combined arms shooter, sim, RTS.. Whatever Arma II really is.

For instance:

When an AI enemy no longer believes it can take a well defended objective, they retreat (if it is an actual retreat, not a Monty Pythonian 'Run away!!!'), popping smoke, trying to disengage and discourage pursuit to leave the area. What does the player do? Pursue? Regroup and fortify, hoping the enemy doesn't change tactics? Send out recon sweeps to destroy what they can, and give intel on what they can't? I'd like to think it adds up to something like this. Never had this complex a situation in Arma 1. I'd just follow the one or two units that realized they were all alone for some reason, and ran back to their original WP. Shot them as they fled. If the officers now go to high ground to observe and call in the enveloping movements, I'd hope the same is possible for getting out of harms way.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Scrub
hung-over speling eror

[S!fkaIaC 10]

I assume that the "individual AI" :D is still stupid like a toaster (maybe now like an electronic toaster), the only thing that made me sweat in ArmA 1 were coordinated attacks by a bunch of AI which share the knowledge of my position.

DAC is your friend, hopefully also in ArmA 2.

[Alex72 1]

I hope it gets harder. I hear some people are scared it gets too hard now when the AI actually hug walls and go behind cover etc. To me it just means we now more than ever need to stick together and watch eachother asses. :) Couldnt be any better in my world.

So i think ARMA2 will need some changes for many in the way they play. Especially the good ol' VET mode.

Alex

[olro 0]

This is a very intriguing question.

IMO what will change the dynamics in fps games so that new tactics are required is (again, depending on single or multiplayer):

1. Some sort of command and control HQ system that requires you to be in range of a leader unit, thereby stopping you from roaming too much as individual units on the battlefield.

This is psychology in play. Rarely will you in rl find single soldiers acting on their own and not in a squad structure. In a game this means youd know that if you see one soldier, there is MOST LIKELY more soldiers near him.

2. Infantry in fortified positions (houses, trenches, foxholes, spiderholes, bunkers) that need to be supressed. This would require alot more and WIDER use of ammunition - artillery, HE, loads of mg fire....

Infantry would also have much longer staying power in their entrenched area. As it is now, the best COVER infantry have now is staying undetected. Some simulated psychology effect like weapon sway or visual impairment should be implemented here.

3. Properly simulated armoured units (front armour towards enemy. For infantry to defeat it they would have to flank)

Brothers in Arms is the only franchise I can think of that uses this to a certain degree, but alas..scripted.

I am utterly convinced that until we include these major changes, any other additions to the game will have none to minor changes in the way we play it

Edited May 24, 2009 by olro

[CyDoN 0]

Who cares? like if you use tactics against the AI.

Every PvP map needs different tactics

[Rebel@heart 10]

Who cares? like if you use tactics against the AI.

Every PvP map needs different tactics

there are more AI maps than PVP so it does matter alot...

[Commando84 0]

I usually roughly the same tactics to fight A.i and players :D

Just do everything quicker vs players and also use cover like go inside buildings and stuff more vs players and when I know there are vehicles in play like in Warefare mode try to imagine what roads are better to avoid being detected by choppers air 2 ground missiles n stuff like that...

[walker 0]

Hi all

If we need new tactics I dare say Dslyecxi will produce an addendum to his Tactics Techniques and Pocedures (TTP) guide.

http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html

That said I would expect to change very little in the main just be a little more careful about flanking and make more use of supression and switching position.

I guess the AI will play a little closer to what I experience playing PvP coops using ACE with human squad commanders, against a good overall commander.

Kind Regards walker

[sluggCDN 0]

In my opinion the biggest problem with AI bots in ArmA is that they display no rational sensible behavior. Regardless of the the situation, once they've locked in on you they'd just keep on running at you wave after wave, basically like zombies. Sure there was some "formation leap frogging" implemented, but it's all of little use if the whole squad runs into the middle of an open area and you are in a window on the second floor. You shoot 10 of them and the others are still jogging towards you. There is also that wierd tank-like movement. AI runs to an imaginery waypoint, then does the Michael Jackson turn on both feet on a spot to change direction, then runs towards another waypoint, stops, does the turn once again and so forth. Humans just don't run like that. So zombie-like persistance and the tank-like navigational behavior are the big minuses for me with ArmA AI.

Plus there are instances when let's say you are reloading, and AI runs into you, stops about 20 feet in front of you and just stands there pointing the gun at you for about 5-7 secs. You'd think he'd shoot you right away without delay at that range. I'm not sure why BIS hasn't adressed it yet - why the delay? In 90% of cases in ArmA close range firefights are laughable. AI runs around you like headless chickens.

[Raptor 10]

lol, I think you will land on one's feet.

yes you need new tactics, the old OFP/ArmA tactics or whatever didn't working anymore.

[Scrub 0]

Thank you raptor.

Yes that is the point of this thread. New tactics because of new AI in Arma II. I was quite lax with those in Arma for the very reasons you stated, sluggCDN. Thinking of the new ways we may need to act because of infos stating we have far less 'forgiving' AI OPFOR.

[frederf 0]

The old tactic of "get on large hill, shoot AI beyond their capable range" is likely to persist as it has persisted.

[maddogx 13]

The old tactic of "get on large hill, shoot AI beyond their capable range" is likely to persist as it has persisted.

I can't remember whether it was in a preview or a video or whatnot, but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that AI now engage at much longer ranges?

[frederf 0]

The ArmA1 AI (modded naturally) is capable of engaging at large ranges as well such that 45% of the time AI squad detects first and fires on the human squad instead of the reverse. However, BIS is not about to offend most of its lay audience by having an AI that makes the player less than a battlefield God.

[walker 0]

The old tactic of "get on large hill, shoot AI beyond their capable range" is likely to persist as it has persisted.

Hi Frederf

That only works if you set AI or server view distance as lower than player and set up the mission so that the AI has lower range weapons than you.

Drawing the enemy onto reverse slope defense will work in either case and also beats human players.

Kind Regards walker

[Scrub 0]

However, BIS is not about to offend most of its lay audience by having an AI that makes the player less than a battlefield God.

Where did you hear this? RKSL-Rock and Foxhound had their respective "asses handed to them" by the Arma 2 AI. You might want to see a demo before making such statements.

[Raptor 10]

lol, it's quite funny, but hey you will see how hard it is.

Especially if you play the first mission several times. :p :D

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Well, I sure hope they engage at longer ranges. And by that I mean engage without opening fire. Even if fire at will is used, they shouldn't immediately start firing from increadible distances. Unless, they are being fired upon by us.

A new tactics seems to be that smoke will work. Hoperfully the AI will react randomly when we use smoke as well, but I guess this can be tricky to get right.

[76 0]

The old tactic of "get on large hill, shoot AI beyond their capable range" is likely to persist as it has persisted.

I can't remember whether it was in a preview or a video or whatnot, but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that AI now engage at much longer ranges?

It hasn't happened for a while, but I have been shot dead many times from distances of over 800m and this by AI armed with AK's (not sniper rifles) and always a kill shot within 3 rounds... not bad, to kill someone with an AK at 800m with only 3 rounds :)

Edited May 27, 2009 by 76
restructured

[frederf 0]

That only works if you set AI or server view distance as lower than player and set up the mission so that the AI has lower range weapons than you.

That certainly helps but overall that's nonsense where ArmA1 is concerned. The PKM is good to 500m+ and I can dance around all day at 400.01m and the enemy infantry doesn't notice me (VD 1200m). If I get their attention they are still extremely reluctant to open fire at ranges that humans would readily and do so with decent effect with the exact same weapon.

I'm pretty sure most players that have been around OFP and ArmA have the sixth sense just like I do where you will happily stand in plain sight out of the AI's detection and fire ranges that would easily get you spotted and killed if you did it against a human opponent.

It's interesting to see a mixed group of old and new players where the old guys walk calmly and without fear until they cross the "magic distance" where it's actually dangerous. The new guys are easy to spot because they act like it's dangerous outside of the magic range and don't take enough care once inside the magic range. It was amusing when my squad first tried the TrueRangeAI mod because it shows painfully just how hard coded this magic range is in all our heads.

Where did you hear this? RKSL-Rock and Foxhound had their respective "asses handed to them" by the Arma 2 AI. You might want to see a demo before making such statements.

In my estimation the odds that the AI's victory was due to superior sight and weapon reach is very low. There are many more (and more likely) ways for the AI to win. The AI usually outnumbers the humans 10 to 1, can be pretty devastating at moderate ranges, is a pretty good shot, and might just flank. If the AI that was victorious spotted the humans first and achieved fire superiority at long range I would be very surprised. I'm guessing it was a 200m-300m engagement, probably in wooded terrain, and with high offset angles.

Call me cynical but BIS has been doing it the way described above for about a decade. Now that ArmA2 is focusing on the superz elite T34m r4z0rz, they can ill afford to make the enemy AI a threat on an equal force basis now more than ever. 90% of missions made for the ArmA series of games is remotely possible if the AI have matched sight and range to the human player.

[Heatseeker 0]

I remember being sniped by a.i. in both OPF and Arma (sometimes to a point of frustration).

The PK machinegunners in OPF were a real threat, if you atacked an a.i. squad over a long distance the PK'ers would rip you appart while the other guys would try to close in on you.

In Arma all of them shoot their crappy AK's from further away and with very high acuracy.

I like the idea that the a.i. should have the initiative same way the players do (stop and scan their surroundings with the binoculars, engage from the distance).

[=Spetsnaz= 0]

yea! i really wanna see a bigger improvement in ai even if it makes them harder, i want more a realistic feel when i am engaging in combat!

[Focha 0]

The problem in ArmA I is not the AI being "hard" as some say. The problem is that AI is stupid enough to make some things like running stupidly around without cover but when they run around a corner and you are there they just instantly stop and shot you in the head from a stand pose... WTF! I really hope some changes in the way AI interacts with you. And a more human AI and not a toast machine like someone called it with reason.