Windage and bullet weight

[Trauma.au 10]

No, it means that someone has to focus a bit extra on learning the flying bit. I'm not saying 'impossible', just add a little more effort into it. Having it easier to fly than tossing a grenade in a game that is for the most part still an infantry game (with some other elements 'tossed inn for good measure'), creates an unfortunate unbalance imho.

Or they could just fix the woeful throwing system.

[maddogx 13]

Frederf, seriously, what the hell are you on about? The OP is "the most civilized person in this thread"? Wow, nice trolling. Really, great job. Have you actually read all his posts? Let me give you a small extract:

Now I read that allegedly Arma2 will have realistic bullet trajectory, well I've also been reading people seem to think Arma1 had realistic trajectories also, and I've heard Redochetra does as well. The only realistic thing about Arma was the bullet's bouncing of ground and the hit sounds of the Bullets thats it. I tried to hit a target with the 50.cal 1800 yards a way and guess what the bullet never traveled more 600 yards, but the dragnove could reach out to 1400 yards .....no Arma was so far from real with bullets.

I dont want to waste my time making a "Mod" for a "Allegedly realisitc game that should have it already. Amra1 had no realism expect the bullet skid on the ground.

sigh, they already have bullet drop, I am just saying make it so you can adust your sniper scope and sight in your rifle like a real sniper. If possible wind should affect long range shots. 9 mm shouldnt be able to kill some one 150 yards away and a 50.cal sniper rilfe should be able to shoot 1800 yards at around a 45 degree elavated lvl. If this "uses too CPU" then they dont deserve to making anything for anybody.

Inconsistency and hyperbole much? ;)

Really, I can understand that some people would like to see an uber realistic ballistics system and sight adjustments with windage. Some would also like an uber realistic wounding system (myself included), some want this that and the other vehicle in the game because it would suit a certain faction better. And everyone is arguing their point by saying "it would be more realistic and BIS say Arma2 is realistic so why isn't it in there? wtf?".

Surely all of that and more could be done. Given enough time they could make the true ultimate war simulator that lives up to everyones ridiculous expectations. Too bad it would take them about another decade to finish and cost millions.

You know what, I'd rather have an excellent foundation that just needs some values tweaked and features added right now, than a prefectly polished and feature rich uber simulator in ten years (or more likely never).

[JStarX7 10]

One more thing I am tired of being killed by an Ak-47 round hitting me in my BulletProof vest which are Designed to stop an AK round also I am tired of being hit in the helmet and dying, oh yeah 9 mm rounds killing you from over 100 yards a way, seeing how in a psitol they bounce off people at 75 yards.

Some suggestions, helmet hit get dizzied fall over and helmet falls off, chest hits let the vest take a few, 9 mm is a pea shooter make it that way. Simple, simple, its been done in the past, it can definatly be done today.

I invite you to stand downrange from me this weekend while I use my "pea shooter" to lob 9mm bullets at you from 100 yards away. I think you'll find that they don't bounce off your skin quite as well as you think.

I also own a semi-auto AK style rifle. Trust me when I tell you that 7.63x39 rounds pass through vests like a hot knife through butter. The rifle plates that the military uses in combat vests will stop rifle bullets, even multiple hits. (The ceramic ones, anyway, and as long as the hits are not too closely grouped...) BUT, you're still likely to be hurt as all that kinetic energy has to go somewhere, right?

As for helmets, my buddy in the USAF who repairs com lines in combat conditions can tell you just how effective they are. An AK round dug a trench out of the top of the helmet he was wearing and then struck the rifle plate of the guy behind him hard enough to make him fall over. The shooter was at least 50 yards away. He said that if he hadn't bent over to try to dig a spent cartridge that was burning him out of his shirt, that round probably would have killed him.

People that don't know anything about firearms in real life asking for games to mimic their vision of reality = FAIL.

[dreday 1]

People that don't know anything about firearms in real life asking for games to mimic their vision of reality = FAIL.

Word!!! Everyone should be required to memorize this line before posting here.

Peace,

DreDay

[kt187 10]

I invite you to stand downrange from me this weekend while I use my "pea shooter" to lob 9mm bullets at you from 100 yards away. I think you'll find that they don't bounce off your skin quite as well as you think.

I also own a semi-auto AK style rifle. Trust me when I tell you that 7.63x39 rounds pass through vests like a hot knife through butter. The rifle plates that the military uses in combat vests will stop rifle bullets, even multiple hits. (The ceramic ones, anyway, and as long as the hits are not too closely grouped...) BUT, you're still likely to be hurt as all that kinetic energy has to go somewhere, right?

As for helmets, my buddy in the USAF who repairs com lines in combat conditions can tell you just how effective they are. An AK round dug a trench out of the top of the helmet he was wearing and then struck the rifle plate of the guy behind him hard enough to make him fall over. The shooter was at least 50 yards away. He said that if he hadn't bent over to try to dig a spent cartridge that was burning him out of his shirt, that round probably would have killed him.

People that don't know anything about firearms in real life asking for games to mimic their vision of reality = FAIL.

^

People that don't know anything about firearms in real life asking for games to mimic their vision of reality = FAIL.

You dont own an AK-47 or 9mm.

Where you live bring the camera.

[Litos 10]

What makes you think he doesn't? You sound overly certain.

A large portion of this community has served in the Army. There are people that even have been in the war, while also people who are just specialists of modern warfare and may own guns and know much about ballistics and how it basically works whether they've been to the army or not.

Not that I am one of them.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

People that don't know anything about firearms in real life asking for games to mimic their vision of reality = FAIL.

Why so? There are plenty of data out there? No, I've never fired an M107 in real life. Most of us hasn't. That doesn't mean that the Arma one shouldn't give us possible ranges that are stated in other sites (just found a quick and dirty shootout AAR, I bet NWD uses slightly better data).

Should I not want this because I haven't fired it? That doesn't make sense...

[kt187 10]

What makes you think he doesn't? You sound overly certain.

A large portion of this community has served in the Army. There are people that even have been in the war, while also people who are just specialists of modern warfare and may own guns and know much about ballistics and how it basically works whether they've been to the army or not.

Not that I am one of them.

Oh I am positive he doesnt. :)

Even though I have not Played VB2 or VB1 I am pretty sure they have realistic damage model's over distance and such. I mean the US army has it programed in their laser vest when they do full scale mock battles, a M16 is registered difference then then an Ak-47 or tank round and T-72 vs M1A1 and such. Those units are low on the tech lvl, in process'ing and such. But to tell the truth I do not remember OFP1 or ARMA1 saying they had realistic ballistics, as a selling point, but ARMA2 does, so I am take their word for it.

"Inconsistency and hyperbole much?" (maddogx)

In response to MaddogX I said they have bullet drop. I didnt say thy have realistic ballistics.

Then you say you dont think they'll ever make a true to life as possible simulator. Not very positive thinking there. I know what you mean by crazy expectations the only crazy one is being able to literally move in a tank like its the enviroment, but the others such as Windage and true Damage system, is not crazy is availabe and has been avaible for quite some time.

One more thing no rag doll effect?

Edited May 21, 2009 by kt187

[headspace 0]

I've been a firearms instructor for several years now (not in a mil/police capacity). I am also into metallic cartridge reloading, which is the process of making your own ammunition for different applications (in my case, match). I am sure many of you have similar or overlapping hobbies. Anyway, given that reloaders have to be cognizant of how bullets fly, I've come to know a few things about exterior ballistics over the years.

You don't have to "be in the Army" to learn the subject, either. Furthermore, many people in the Army, even in infantry roles, don't know it to the level of an exterior ballistician because they don't need to and it isn't their job. This is an applied physics application that we're discussing here. So let's keep that in mind before more flames are thrown around.

That said, ArmA has one of the most realistic exterior ballistics simulations of any game currently out on the market. While it is next to impossible to model every aspect of the flight dynamics of a bullet in real time and in a game, ArmA models most of the important aspects of it. While you cannot derive a 1-to-1 relationship between a real ballistic coefficient and ArmA's config values for ammo, it is possible to acheive a very close approximation for most ranges. Perhaps the most glaring aspects of what is missing from ArmA is wind effects on fired projectiles. However, given the engagement ranges of most infantry combat modeled in the game, this is probably not very necessary. While it would be fun to have that in a long range role (sniping, etc), I don't think that the game suffers much from its lack of presence.

The ACE mod has a very basic sight adjustment apparatus which will enable players to take advantage of some of the more longer-ranged firearms modeled in the game. I would have preferred a more finely tuned (mil or 1/2 to 1/4 MOA adjustment) system, but the one that is currently in ACE works quite nicely for the majority of what players will encounter in the game.

To conclude, I see very little reason why this topic is even being discussed. You have one of the best simulations out there, and to nitpick it to death (particularly on issues unrelated to lack of wind effects) is in my view entirely unnecessary.

[JStarX7 10]

Oh I am positive he doesnt. :)

Before you assume, perhaps you should check my blog, J Star and the Blog of Doom. (Go ahead and google it, I am too lazy to link)

I own quite a few firearms.

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[CarlGustaffa 4]

Oh I am positive he doesnt. :)

Based on what?

But to tell the truth I do not remember OFP1 or ARMA1 saying they had realistic ballistics, as a selling point, but ARMA2 does, so I am take their word for it.

Well, I do hope that Arma2 has realistic ballistics as they claim. Especially on the weapons most affected by it, namely sniper rifles, mortars, artillery shells, and different tank shells. For other weapons it is nice, but usually not critical. However, if it does, there must also be a way to adjust the sight. Or the M24 becomes quite useless. Windage especially for sniper rifles could also be useful, not only for realism, but to keep down the number of sniper wannabes out there ruining public games when they could have been much more useful as one of the two missing SAW gunners in an infantry team.

Then you say you dont think they'll ever make a true to life as possible simulator. Not very positive thinking there.

Ever? Who knows. But Arma2? No. Definately not. Considering how it wasn't considered worth the effort to blind AI with smoke in Armed Assault and plenty other old OFP buggers are still in there, is there really any point in having our hopes set too high? I fear I would only get disappointed. Armed Assault is at its end of its life cycle now, and it still haven't been adressed officially. Do I believe this is fixed in Arma2? Only when I see it. Not only this, but many other things as well.

One more thing no rag doll effect?

Search the forums for many answers against it and it becomes obvious why.

The ACE mod has a very basic sight adjustment apparatus which will enable players to take advantage of some of the more longer-ranged firearms modeled in the game. I would have preferred a more finely tuned (mil or 1/2 to 1/4 MOA adjustment) system, but the one that is currently in ACE works quite nicely for the majority of what players will encounter in the game.

Adding windage would have made ACE snipers a little more professional compared to all those 'snipers' we see today. Only then would I have supported higher adjustment accuracy and more accurate sniper weapons. But currently the higher adjustment accuracy isn't needed since the weapons are not accurate enough to support it due to sway and/or dispersion effects. I didn't check the latest version though so I might be wrong. In other words not perfect, but a decent compromise.

[headspace 0]

Adding windage would have made ACE snipers a little more professional compared to all those 'snipers' we see today. Only then would I have supported higher adjustment accuracy and more accurate sniper weapons. But currently the higher adjustment accuracy isn't needed since the weapons are not accurate enough to support it due to sway and/or dispersion effects. I didn't check the latest version though so I might be wrong. In other words not perfect, but a decent compromise.

I would try the current version of ACE.

As for windage, it's doable with a script. But you have the issue of MP locality for projectiles combined with the need to constantly change the velocity of the projectile. If I could choose between less lag and wind, I'll pick less lag.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Headspace

[JStarX7 10]

Why so? There are plenty of data out there? No, I've never fired an M107 in real life. Most of us hasn't. That doesn't mean that the Arma one shouldn't give us possible ranges that are stated in other sites (just found a quick and dirty shootout AAR, I bet NWD uses slightly better data).

Should I not want this because I haven't fired it? That doesn't make sense...

No, that's not it at all.

What I mean is, people whose entire concept of firearms comes from movies/tv/video games who want "realism" from their firearms in-game, but who don't even know what real is. I.E. 9mm handguns are "pea-shooters" whose bullets bounce off people at 75 yards.

I know many people who think that something is wrong with my AR because I don't have a 4 foot flame shooting out of the barrel every time I fire it. People don't realize that is not what real guns look like when they are fired. In fact, a lot of guns have flash hiders on them to prevent that from happening.

You don't have to have fired real guns to want realism in a game, but you need to have some concept of what real really is to appreciate it when it is in a game.

[headspace 0]

I know many people who think that something is wrong with my AR because I don't have a 4 foot flame shooting out of the barrel every time I fire it. People don't realize that is not what real guns look like when they are fired. In fact, a lot of guns have flash hiders on them to prevent that from happening.

Not to drag this OT but that's primarily going to be a function of the type of ammo you're using and the powder. If you use military ball you're going to get a nice fireball going because that stuff is loaded hotter than its civilian counterpart. Likewise if you reload, you will find that a stick powder like Varget or IMR 4895 is going to produce less of a tongue of flame than a ball powder...it's all about the powder.

[kt187 10]

Not to drag this OT but that's primarily going to be a function of the type of ammo you're using and the powder. If you use military ball you're going to get a nice fireball going because that stuff is loaded hotter than its civilian counterpart. Likewise if you reload, you will find that a stick powder like Varget or IMR 4895 is going to produce less of a tongue of flame than a ball powder...it's all about the powder.

Well OFP and Arma1 alittle bit really hide the muzzle break in Daylight and at night time you'll always see a flash, even with a suppressor but that would be really low.

OFP and Arma and this one as seen in the video do a really good job of keeping muzzel flash realistic. I hope you can choose to use tracers or not in assult rifles in Arma2 or Machine guns, I like OFP1 where there were no tracers. Resistence add'd it in becuase I think people complained i dont "where are they shooting me from...Arggh"

[kt187 10]

Told you he doesnt have an AK.

PROHIBITED FIREARMS, DEVICES, AND WEAPONS (Canada)

Prohibited firearms, devices, and weapons are:

full-automatic firearms

sawed-off rifles or shotguns with barrel length less than 457mm (18 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short barrels

sawed-off rifles or shotguns with overall length less than 660mm (26 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short stocks or short barrels

handguns with a barrel less than 105mm (4.14 inches), except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted

handguns in caliber .25 or .32, except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted

silencers

large capacity magazines for a semi-automatic center-fire firearm. What constitutes "large capacity" varies; as a general rule, the maximum capacity is 5 rounds for long guns, 10 rounds for handguns "commonly found in Canada", and 5 rounds for handguns "not commonly found in Canada." Magazines for rimfire cartridges, the 8-round clips used in the M1 Garand, and 10 round Lee Enfield rifle magazines are exempted by name from this prohibition.

any of a long list of firearms specifically listed as prohibited. With few exceptions, if it has a remotely military appearance, it is prohibited.

replicas of firearms

any type of Taser or other firearm that discharges a dart or other object carrying an electrical current.

tear gas, Mace or other gas, or any liquid spray, power or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person

any type of stun gun or other electrical charge device of length less than 480mm

a large additional class of prohibited weapons, such as nunchakus, switchblades, brass knuckles, etc. which are not discussed here. Read the list here if you care.

[JStarX7 10]

Told you he doesnt have an AK.

PROHIBITED FIREARMS, DEVICES, AND WEAPONS (Canada)

Uh huh, Did you even bother looking? And why did you post Canadian law? I don't live in Canada.

And this, BTW is military load ball ammo. You will get a nice muzzle flash sometimes if you fire full auto or burst, and it's a bit more at night, but nothing like the movies. (I realize they purposely load the blanks in movies and shows to get a nice muzzle flash.) It's not all about powder, it's about muzzle device, barrel length, and powder.

My M44, firing surplus Russian military, gets about a 6' fireball. My AR-15 gets none. (Of course, at night you can see a bit of flash)

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Edited May 22, 2009 by JStarX7

[kt187 10]

I dont know if its on your blog but what state do you live ?, theres another Jay and the BLOG of doom, sorry that live in Canada, but looking at the Guns you have and the tree's and the sunlight , I'd say you live on the west probably in a Liberal state Mass or Newyork, maybe Vermont.

[frederf 0]

Isn't that basically what I meant with sights leveled? The sights point to the horizon but the weapon shoots a bit upwards.

Good point, the value probably refers to barrel elevation and there is a convergence between the two. Forgot about that.

As far as the value of accurate ballistics, it's often not just a case of extreme nerd opinion. There is definitely a value to getting it at least semi close to reality purely for the qualitative effects. If 9mm pistol rounds are hugely lethal at 400m, ACOG scope range ticks aren't accurate, 20mm rounds are dropping excessively at 1000m, etc... then there's something wrong. It's been demonstrated that using the existing ballistics system values can be altered to get really good reality matching in the arcs and terminal speeds for most rounds over the most used portion of the range.

It's not a question as to whether accurate ballistics are possible in ArmA2. They have been done in ArmA1, just not out of the box and lacking some ancillary features like windage, body armor, large caliber range, and high arc trajectories (mortar round doesn't weathervane).

This "X round penetrate Y armor" blah, blah is miserable to read because everyone is talking in absolutes when these armor questions deal more in statistics and probability. It shouldn't surprise anyone here that a 9mm round has a high likelihood of being defeated by a helmet while 5.56mm is less but common and 7.62mm is in the "happens but don't bet on it" category.

Also the East faction is largely fictional in ArmA and would probably wear comparable armor to their western counterparts. I don't think it's fair to say simply because the overarching eastern doctrine has been "quantity over quality" that East units in ArmA2 would necessarily be wearing tissue paper for protection.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Frederf

[flake 10]

ok, simple questions.

Is bullet drop and velocity modelled in the game ?

If so, is it in the multiplayer also ?

thx

I hope so. No more sniping laser powered handguns at ridiculous ranges. OFP was awesome but the MP sucked huge ones.

[whisper 0]

yes & yes. Bullet drop & air friction modelled, with "true" speed of bullets (true being relative to the IRL data source being used ;) ). The thing missing is wind affecting bullets trajectory

[fabrizio_t 58]

Good points kt178! +++

The windage is probably too much realism for most players, but bullet drop and damage decrease over range is very important.

Bullet drop is indeed modeled.

Windage is modeled too i think, am i wrong?

Also damage decrease over range seems to be ingame.

Damage over range also depends on type of weapon /ammo.

I've managed to take some long distance shot ( >= 750m) with the M24 and they are not granted to be fatal usually.

On the contrary a single shot taken from 1000m with a M107 is almost always lethal.

[sniper pilot 36]

Bullet drop is indeed modeled.

Windage is modeled too i think, am i wrong?

Also damage decrease over range seems to be ingame.

Damage over range also depends on type of weapon /ammo.

I've managed to take some long distance shot ( >= 750m) with the M24 and they are not granted to be fatal usually.

On the contrary a single shot taken from 1000m with a M107 is almost always lethal.

True, i thought windage did effect bullets... hell I thought this game even took the Coriolis effect into consideration - could be wrong though!

[fabrizio_t 58]

Some sniping tests.

Sniping with the M107 - single lethal shot from over 1000m.

Sniping with the M24 - from 750m.

here you can see one of the major ai issues, the superhuman ability to spot you from distance sometimes.

Edited June 8, 2009 by fabrizioT

[flake 10]

hah ok i am now goosepimply after watching those vids. looking awesome. i think the guys getting shot at should have run off though. lying down in the open isnt much of a defence against a sniper, and yeah windage would be a bonus but i will buy this !