Windage and bullet weight

[NeMeSiS 11]

I looked at the graph and it say's an m24 only shoots 550 yards, I understand most people who play shooting games have probably never fired a gun. m24 can reach out to 1200 yards custom loads maybe 1500.

Again I made a range just like this guys and used .50 and Dragnov, the dragnove went 1400 and the .50 only went 600, again BI said they just flung the game togther, so .

Thats in meters, and like above said, not the maximum firing range of the gun. :j:

[kt187 10]

@kt187

Considering the possible size of battles in ArmA(2) and the resulting huge number of bullets potentially flying around at any given time, you have to accept a certain simplification in the simulation of ballistics. If you tried to calculate accurate real-world ballistics and windage for every bullet on the battlefield you'd need a lot more processing power than the average desktop computer can provide. Hence the approximation.

This topic has been brought up time and again in the ArmA1 forums and at one point I'm pretty sure a dev actually commented that wind affecting bullets would have been much too CPU-costly for such a small impact it would have on the game. So they didn't implement it.

sigh, they already have bullet drop, I am just saying make it so you can adust your sniper scope and sight in your rifle like a real sniper. If possible wind should affect long range shots. 9 mm shouldnt be able to kill some one 150 yards away and a 50.cal sniper rilfe should be able to shoot 1800 yards at around a 45 degree elavated lvl. If this "uses too CPU" then they dont deserve to making anything for anybody.

[kt187 10]

Have you thought about the possibility that the graph is for rounds that were shot sights leveled to horizon, letting the bullet drop as it flies? If you want to shoot farther, you have to raise the gun.

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LfEDVtyNwo

I dont have that mod Celery sorry....I guess my 50.cal the one BI gave was made in China.

And I dont a string leading the bullet to the target.

Like I said it doesnt shoot past 600' yards. at a highly elvated lvl.

[NeMeSiS 11]

FADE?

EDIT: Small letters here because of stupid anti-caps function.

[dreday 1]

The helmets today are designe to stop .30 cal rounds such as Ak-47 and they do, all the time, theres a video on youtube a soldier gets hit in the temple part of helmet after the battle his friend says hey you got shot and he took his helmet off and the side of his head looked like a swarm of bee's had stung it.

Are you sure you are not thinking of Saving Private Ryan? In all seriousness, you are wrong, super wrong! Modern combat helmets are by no means designed to stop the rounds from assault rifles.

Peace,

DreDay

Edited May 19, 2009 by DreDay

[Steakslim 1]

@kt187

Why would they not "deserve" to be making anything for anybody? Look, your not going to get all that you want from this game. They're trying to squeeze in what they can with the time and money they have and hope to find a good medium amongst the simulation of bullets, rockets, tank rounds and everything else. People on this board bitch that there isn't more realistic avionics. They bitch that the simulation of the tanks isn't more realistic, such as being able to look around within the interior amongst other complaints. The game is trying to be a jack of all trades, and a master at none. Most people here have accepted that the helicopter simulation in this game isn't going to be like DCS Blackshark or what ever other hardcore sim's for any and all genre of game/sim there is. Be glad your getting what's already in the game as is.

Be glad that there's a hope that they fixed some of the more serious issues that have plagued the game since OFP, along with new issues in ArmA1 that the community have had to deal with all this time. I'd rather they fix those then spend the time figuring out how to manage memory and processing resources in the game's code to properly calculate bullet tragectories for 50 or more instances of people shooting several rounds, many of them different, a minute all at once in a game server. I know you may not want to wait for a mod to make more realistic ballistics, but you might just have to if the ones in the vanilla version isn't entirely your cup of tea. BIS isn't going to get everything right upon this game's release.

[kt187 10]

Sure we got what eight core processors now for purchase and 100 core is looking to on the horizen in less then 10 years, we got Internet 2 and viruality on the Horizen, I know they got limit funds but they also have compettion saying that their game is more realisitc.

It wont use up CPU it will make the game run smoother but iam tired of talking about this.

About the Helmet... The PASGT helmet is old was decomisioned in 2003 the New Helmet is even beter.

The PASGT Helmet is said to have stopped rifle rounds on occasion, most commonly 7.62 x 39 mm (AK-47) rounds (in one account the PASGT Helmet is credited with stopping an AK-47 round from approximately 25 meters range)

The date of that firefight just south of Fallujah — November 8, 2003 — should probably be on Adrian Danczyk’s headstone. But instead of the 7.62 mm RPK light machine gun bullet penetrating Danczyk’s skull, his Kevlar helmet absorbed the energy, leaving a wound where the helmet slammed into his forehead.

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=25223

Theres a few you tube videos as well. But yeah I still woudnt' stick my head out.

[Steakslim 1]

I care not if you're tired of talking about this. It doesn't matter what's on the horizon. We have to focus on what we have now, which is what BIS is doing. A lot of people still have dual cores, and even then BIS/we have to deal with the load put on the multiplayer servers. The calculation of everything going through a server's processor (or processors) has to then be done for everyone server side in a multiplayer game, this is ontop of the other multitude of calculations that are going on to make sure what everyone is seeing in the game in Chernarus is the same. I'm not trying to shoot you down on wanting more advanced features, I'm just saying the hardware limits of today can lead to some bad results for those featurres if attempted, results I do not think BIS can afford to deal with and would rather wait to try out such features when they have a solid game first. We are just NOW pushing for advanced hardware physics and light reflections, and even those have minimal support from most game developers because they have to draw a line between those with old hardware, and the nutty enthusiasts with cryogenically frozen computer cases (I'm exaggerating but you get my point). Even worse is if they have to plan around the limitations of the console community (I don't mean anything bad about that, just making a point on hardware limitations).

[whisper 0]

meters != yards

just fyi

[dreday 1]

About the Helmet... The PASGT helmet is old was decomisioned in 2003 the New Helmet is even beter.

The PASGT Helmet is said to have stopped rifle rounds on occasion, most commonly 7.62 x 39 mm (AK-47) rounds (in one account the PASGT Helmet is credited with stopping an AK-47 round from approximately 25 meters range)

"On Occasion" is the key here. There are even cases of teeth and cheekbones stopping bullets on occasion. However, no battlefield helmet was designed for such purpose or would be expected to offer this kind of protection.

Peace,

DreDay

[Spokesperson 0]

I wonder how they calculate the trajectory. Do they count the coriolis-effect and bullet rotation? Differential eq. "simulated" trajectory or just some real time physics-engine based "experimental" trajectory governed by inertia + local forces.

[maddogx 13]

sigh, they already have bullet drop, I am just saying make it so you can adust your sniper scope and sight in your rifle like a real sniper. ... If possible wind should affect long range shots. ... It wont use up CPU it will make the game run smoother but iam tired of talking about this. .... The PASGT Helmet is said to have stopped rifle rounds on occasion.

Please get yourself an informed opinion and explain your arguments better from the start. Parts of what you are saying now makes sense, as opposed to before, but some of it seems like you're just desperately trying to defend an untenable point because you can't allow yourself to be wrong.

[Alex72 1]

Why would they not "deserve" to be making anything for anybody? Look, your not going to get all that you want from this game. They're trying to squeeze in what they can with the time and money they have and hope to find a good medium amongst the simulation of bullets, rockets, tank rounds and everything else. People on this board bitch that there isn't more realistic avionics. They bitch that the simulation of the tanks isn't more realistic, such as being able to look around within the interior amongst other complaints. The game is trying to be a jack of all trades, and a master at none. Most people here have accepted that the helicopter simulation in this game isn't going to be like DCS Blackshark or what ever other hardcore sim's for any and all genre of game/sim there is. Be glad your getting what's already in the game as is.

Be glad that there's a hope that they fixed some of the more serious issues that have plagued the game since OFP, along with new issues in ArmA1 that the community have had to deal with all this time. I'd rather they fix those then spend the time figuring out how to manage memory and processing resources in the game's code to properly calculate bullet tragectories for 50 or more instances of people shooting several rounds, many of them different, a minute all at once in a game server. I know you may not want to wait for a mod to make more realistic ballistics, but you might just have to if the ones in the vanilla version isn't entirely your cup of tea. BIS isn't going to get everything right upon this game's release.

Well said.

ArmA2 is obviously better than ArmA1 in many or most ways, and coupled with some high class addons later it doesnt take a genius to figure out it will be the best entertainment in its class - again. But this time most probably with less bugs, and surely with better functions/features (we know the latter).

Wind deflection on bullets is in ArmA1 with the Q1184 Wind Deflection addon, and it feels pretty damn realistic. Also that you can actually look at your surrounding to know what direction the wind blows. Trees, bushes, grass, clouds, smoke (fires, muzzle, impact) and dust... It all blow in the winds direction. This is already here for ArmA1 so it will definatelly be there for ArmA2 as well sooner or later.

And like Steakslim said it cant be all in the stock game. It just cant. But it seems to me like core ArmA2 is going to be much "bigger" than ArmA1 was.

[Trauma.au 10]

Now I read that allegedly Arma2 will have realistic bullet trajectory, well I've also been reading people seem to think Arma1 had realistic trajectories also, and I've heard Redochetra does as well. The only realistic thing about Arma was the bullet's bouncing of ground and the hit sounds of the Bullets thats it. I tried to hit a target with the 50.cal 1800 yards a way and guess what the bullet never traveled more 600 yards, but the dragnove could reach out to 1400 yards .....no Arma was so far from real with bullets.

Now they got their act to gother allegedly, and It does look this way, If BI, you want to make a realistic simulator, you have to start with the basics, the bullets, back in the mid 90's a game called Delta Force 2 came out and they had windage and elvation equations for their weapons, the result was the Wanna be snipers were weed'ed out. Deer hunter two you could sight in your rifle and so did all of the hunter games until Cablea made them arcade like where the animal is just there.

One more thing I am tired of being killed by an Ak-47 round hitting me in my BulletProof vest which are Designed to stop an AK round also I am tired of being hit in the helmet and dying, oh yeah 9 mm rounds killing you from over 100 yards a way, seeing how in a psitol they bounce off people at 75 yards.

Some suggestions, helmet hit get dizzied fall over and helmet falls off, chest hits let the vest take a few, 9 mm is a pea shooter make it that way. Simple, simple, its been done in the past, it can definatly be done today.

I know what you guys want and its exactly what we want realism to max, and gore. Dont be afraid of scaring off potentional customers, This should be a Work of Art, not a commodity.

You have the limited FOV and adjustment options confused with poor ballistics.

The only reason you made the SVD go further than the M107 is because it has a 4x scope while the M107 has a 10x scope, thus less FOV. The ACE mod adds elevation and windage adjustments for all sniper rifles (also AT launchers and grenade launchers and some mounted weapons), I can hit targets at 2100m in Arma w/ ACE.

As for the body armor I think the reason you don't have it implemented they way you describe is mostly due to tech limits, but also balance, the east don't have the same armor, would be unfair. (also the east are often modeled with western body armor which is unrealistic).

Also this is not a work of art nor is it intended to be, it is a product made for entertainment purposes and intended for the widest demographic possible while staying as true to the initial design as they dare. Games that push for absolute realism will always fail or have a very small market as we do not have the same situational awareness and more importantly input that we do in real life. They want realism like we do also, but fiscal success will always win out.

Sorry if someone else posted something similar to this, I did not read every page.

The helmets today are designe to stop .30 cal rounds such as Ak-47 and they do, all the time, theres a video on youtube a soldier gets hit in the temple part of helmet after the battle his friend says hey you got shot and he took his helmet off and the side of his head looked like a swarm of bee's had stung it.

You mean this vid?

If so, first off you don't know what hit him, it could have been a light round, a 5.56, a 7.62, buck shot pellet(s), shrapnel, debris, basically anything that can move through the air with high speed.

Second, you don't what angle the object hit him on and if it was a round, how far off it was and there fore how much energy it had lost before impact.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Trauma.au
additions

[Yoma 0]

I dont have that mod Celery sorry....I guess my 50.cal the one BI gave was made in China.

And I dont a string leading the bullet to the target.

Like I said it doesnt shoot past 600' yards. at a highly elvated lvl.

You are using a legal copy of the game are you?

I often shoot stuff from at least 1km ( i think that's about 1100 yards ), above that it's very possible but takes more shots (without any sight adjusting mods) with the standard M24.

If you are using an illegal copy do get the original, it's well worth the efford and the developers do earn to be given hard cash for their excellent work.

People should be shot for ripping this game :mad:

[kt187 10]

Also this is not a work of art nor is it intended to be, it is a product made for entertainment purposes and intended for the widest demographic possible while staying as true to the initial design as they dare. Games that push for absolute realism will always fail or have a very small market as we do not have the same situational awareness and more importantly input that we do in real life. They want realism like we do also, but fiscal success will always win out.

Sorry if someone else posted something similar to this, I did not read every page.

You mean this vid?

If so, first off you don't know what hit him, it could have been a light round, a 5.56, a 7.62, buck shot pellet(s), shrapnel, debris, basically anything that can move through the air with high speed.

Second, you don't what angle the object hit him on and if it was a round, how far off it was and there fore how much energy it had lost before impact.

Ok your making a good point, Warsaw pack armies should get their butts handed to them by US equipment.That would be realistic there should be no Balance of power in this game at all. The US should be able to take a few hits to the chest while the Warsaw armies with plastic helmets and nam era flak jackets get wasted.

A shuka can bringe down any plane, but the US can launch a hell fire missle 5 miles away and blow the Shuka, up so the Shuka needs to turn its engine off and wait till the helo is in range......Its called tactics. Russia says over whelm with number, the US says accuracy superoir fire power.

And as for the Art thing Lol Devolopes who are passionate about a Project dont think about how much money the games gonna make, BI is an Independent Devoloper (Tell the Designers its not Art see what happens)

[dreday 1]

Ok your making a good point, Warsaw pack armies should get their butts handed to them by US equipment.That would be realistic there should be no Balance of power in this game at all. The US should be able to take a few hits to the chest while the Warsaw armies with plastic helmets and nam era flak jackets get wasted.

Again you are talking about things that you have absolutely no idea about. Modern-day Russian and American vests are roughly equivalent in their protective characteristics.

BTW, it's Warsaw Pact and it has been dead for 20 years...

Peace,

DreDay

[whisper 0]

The guy is lagging several years behind reality, apparently.

[frederf 0]

Since the OP is about the most civilized person in this thread, I'll address his comments first. ArmA1's bullet trajectory was capable of matching real life pretty well. There are some really good ArmA1 mods that taken the basic bullet system and simply tweaked values around to a very close-to-reality result. Long range heavy rounds like 12.7mm, 20mm, 25mm, and 30mm are still a bit hamstrung but otherwise it's pretty good.

In ArmA1 .50 cal has a maximum range of a couple of kilometers at least. I don't know how you managed to arrive at a "600m max" figure with ArmA1's .50 cal.

Windage is really something that could be added to ArmA2 without much CPU load or complaints. "Too much realism" is a worry that is overdone. People are extremely adaptable to situations. As long as playing is still doable, even the most arcade person has a very strong tendency to accept "the game out of the box" without question. People have a much stronger tendency to just suck it up and say "OK snipings hard now" than we give them credit for. Plus, there's that nice benefit that getting good at something hard feels like an accomplishment. There's evidence of windagte in half-completed form in the ArmA1 files. Sight adjustment is something that's been needed deparately since OFP as long range rifles, AT weapons, grenade launchers, and more all rely on this ability.

Armor is also another much needed layer of improvement. I have played some mods for ArmA1 that make a 600m M16 shot really weak taking 6-10 hit to be lethal where 1-2 closer did the job. You really start to get a feel for how range and calibre matter. In stock ArmA 5.56mm and 12.7mm are really only different in 2 or 1 hits to kill, with the mod their differences are really illuminated. Unfortunately damage threshold armor modeling wasn't in the cards for the mod so you could still be killed via 9mm at 500 yards to the vest... eventually which is silly. However all of this improvement was gotten simply by tweaking BIS's default values to better numbers. That shows how good BIS's system is in design, just not execution.

---

I'd really like to point out this argument that "simulating ballistics with increasing fidelity would make our CPUs melt" is complete bollocks. Agreement with real life doesn't require significantly more CPU resources, just smarter values, reworked mechanics, and focusing on what matters.

Even bigger bollocks is the tired old "we can't make it perfect so trying to make it better is not a good idea" crutch that Thrash bought from the antique store.

As for "you can make an addon"... why? Why do we have to model things wrong in vanilla so we can fix them in an addon? Is this the 11th Commandment "Thou shalt not make anything right on the first try." from Moses that no one ever told me about? Why can't we just get it right out of the box (which is what 90% of people play) and be done with it?

Have you thought about the possibility that the graph is for rounds that were shot sights leveled to horizon, letting the bullet drop as it flies? If you want to shoot farther, you have to raise the gun.

If you actually look at the graph pictures Celery, you can see that the guns were all fired with -0.02 (radian?) elevation. However you are correct in finding nothing wrong with the graph. It looks correct. The person that say 550m for an M24 and thought something was wrong didn't understand really what he was looking at. The point of the graph was to show ballistics for a set condition, not to have any sort of comment with max effective range.

[celery 8]

If you actually look at the graph pictures Celery, you can see that the guns were all fired with -0.02 (radian?) elevation.

Isn't that basically what I meant with sights leveled? The sights point to the horizon but the weapon shoots a bit upwards.

[Trauma.au 10]

Ok your making a good point, Warsaw pack armies should get their butts handed to them by US equipment.That would be realistic there should be no Balance of power in this game at all. The US should be able to take a few hits to the chest while the Warsaw armies with plastic helmets and nam era flak jackets get wasted.

A shuka can bringe down any plane, but the US can launch a hell fire missle 5 miles away and blow the Shuka, up so the Shuka needs to turn its engine off and wait till the helo is in range......Its called tactics. Russia says over whelm with number, the US says accuracy superoir fire power.

And as for the Art thing Lol Devolopes who are passionate about a Project dont think about how much money the games gonna make, BI is an Independent Devoloper (Tell the Designers its not Art see what happens)

Again total realism does not work, this is a game, not a simulator, no one would choose to play East as its called atm if the knew they were inferior in arms and protection.

And you gunna balance it out by putting 70% of players on east to mimic the numbers Vs firepower thing?

And your right, artists don't have to worry about their jobs, their income, the well being of their family's, maintaining/improving their quality of life. It's all about the art.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

"Too much realism" is a worry that is overdone. People are extremely adaptable to situations.

For certain aspects in the game, I wouldn't mind them becoming 'too realistic'. Today anyone can pick up a sniper rifle and start picking targets. Now they think they are 'snipers'. Sniping should be made difficult enough so that regular Joe would think twice about using it, and leave it for the professionals who knows what they are doing. Currently, you don't need to practice much before you get it to work.

On the other hand... Grenades. These remain almost impossible to toss accurately, and they require a lot of training to get right. Having played OFP and Arma1 quite a bit, I have still to master this.

So, the hard-to-learn exotic skills (sniping, flying) are in Arma1 much easier to learn than what should be common knowlegde to any infantryman (using grenades effectively).

[celery 8]

So, the hard-to-learn exotic skills (sniping, flying) are in Arma1 much easier to learn than what should be common knowlegde to any infantryman (using grenades effectively).

If you make them more difficult, only a fraction of people will be able to do them halfway properly. Flying especially can be a problematic thing because sometimes it's needed and nobody in the group might be able to do so. You can still see who is very skilled in those things, it's just that they're not completely impossible for beginners.

[mcvittees 0]

Are you sure you are not thinking of Saving Private Ryan? In all seriousness, you are wrong, super wrong! Modern combat helmets are by no means designed to stop the rounds from assault rifles.

Peace,

DreDay

Indeed this is true. There was recent a news item in the UK (here) about a soldier who was shot it the head by an AK-47 but fortunately the round missed his skull by milimeters as it passed through his helmet.

Although much was made of his good fortune at not being killed, no one seemed suprised that the helmet failed to stop the round penetrating his helmet on entry and exit. The conclusion one must draw from this is the helmets used in the Britsh army (which I believe are made of the same materials as other western armies' helemts) are not designed to stop high velocity rounds (even though on occasions they actually might).

Edited May 21, 2009 by mcvittees

[CarlGustaffa 4]

If you make them more difficult, only a fraction of people will be able to do them halfway properly. Flying especially can be a problematic thing because sometimes it's needed and nobody in the group might be able to do so. You can still see who is very skilled in those things, it's just that they're not completely impossible for beginners.

No, it means that someone has to focus a bit extra on learning the flying bit. I'm not saying 'impossible', just add a little more effort into it. Having it easier to fly than tossing a grenade in a game that is for the most part still an infantry game (with some other elements 'tossed inn for good measure'), creates an unfortunate unbalance imho.