They should do this for realistic sounds

[mr.g-c 6]

Watch what the sound-editors done for a game:

Well i think from a business point of view, that it could be worthwhile to do something like this, or at least to buy the sounds for ARMA2 from a company who produces such "real-captured-sounds"

Because this time, please so such ugly sounds again.

Best Reagards, Christian

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well nice earcandy but do you know how things in game development/publishing work? MOH has about 200 people in development and working with big publisher togehter. Capturing real sounds from shooting range/training area you must have some connections, money and good sound editors too and of course time to built this into game. Could be very nice with excellent gameplay and performance.

[stock762 0]

maybe they could just find high quality videos or sounds of real guns an do it, because if sound mods can make them i'm sure BIS can. They rely too much on mod makers to finnish the game for them. Ha an you say it takes a lot of money, they got vbs2 going for what a grand? i'm sure the gov is making them money. It seems as Arma is a little vbs demo.

[TrunkzJr 0]

maybe they could just find high quality videos or sounds of real guns an do it, because if sound mods can make them i'm sure BIS can. They rely too much on mod makers to finnish the game for them. Ha an you say it takes a lot of money, they got vbs2 going for what a grand? i'm sure the gov is making them money. It seems as Arma is a little vbs demo.

Indeed. You know it's not about the money when the community is dishing out better sounds for ArmA then what BIS have used. Heck, they could just hire someone from the community, and maybe pay them very little or maybe they'd do it for free, either way I don't see why ArmA2 can't have very great sounds then what ArmA did.

[BKnight3 0]

Apparently, they dont get that money.  Apparently, the people that make VBS 2 dont make ARMA 2.  

For some information, here's the official reply to my thread regarding a similar question that has been officially locked/closed:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=70160

Quote[/b] ]Placebo wrote:  BIS develop games and are developing the announced ArmA2, BIA develop military simulators, end of.

Therefore, BIS never gets the money that BIA earns right?  That should also mean that BIS and BIA never use the same resources and personnel as well correct?  Confused yet?  I sure am.  Hope someone could clear this up for me.

[opteryx 1562]

BIS makes the engine and develops games on it (OFP/ArmA1/2etc.)

BIA (a different company) pays a license to BIS for the engine so that they may modify it at their own discretion and distribute it to another group of customers (mil etc.)

I think that's more or less how it works.

[Aeon 0]

to buy the sounds for ARMA2 from a company who produces such "real-captured-sounds"

Do you really believe a sound-designer waste hours on a simple fireworks bang in order to get a AK47-like sound ?

-> Most of those compagnies produces "real-captured-sounds", and so most games also.

The point is :

- Recording conditions (device, distance sound source/record device, reverb, echo), and post proceeds (peak, distortion)

- "Sound engine" of the game.

...And for this last, we already discuss about it

[mr.g-c 6]

to buy the sounds for ARMA2 from a company who produces such "real-captured-sounds"

Do you really believe a sound-designer waste hours on a simple fireworks bang in order to get a AK47-like sound ?

No, and i didn't wrote this!

I said at least they should buy the sounds from a company who produces or captures such real-sounds.

Regards, Christian

[Aeon 0]

well, for what I know I would suggest "Dynamic Range" volumes wich are quite good (or even "EFX-sound effects").

<span style='font-size:6pt;line-height:100%'>but maybe Ondřej Matějka has better stuff (?)</span>

[stakex 0]

Well nice earcandy but do you know how things in game development/publishing work? MOH has about 200 people in development and working with big publisher togehter. Capturing real sounds from shooting range/training area you must have some connections, money and good sound editors too and of course time to built this into game. Could be very nice with excellent gameplay and performance.

You don't really need "connections" for something like this... For almost any small arm, they could find a collector in the US willing to let BIS come shoot guns and record sounds, pay them a fee... and send a small team to go shoot guns and record sounds for a day or two. I say the US only becuase Im not sure of gun laws in other parts of the world. Here in the US I know a collector with a federal licence can own pretty much anything...

Things like tanks and such, just stick with the current method since tank sounds aren't terrible.

Money wise it wouldn't be too bad, and providing BIS has the quipment and the knowhow to do this, I can only assume its more of a "Don't want to" then a "Can't do" situation

[BKnight3 0]

Quote[/b] ]Money wise it wouldn't be too bad, and providing BIS has the quipment and the knowhow to do this, I can only assume its more of a "Don't want to" then a "Can't do" situation

Part of me wonders how big this type of a situation is considering the failing of ARMA.

[dm 9]

Part of me wonders how big this type of a situation is considering the failing of ARMA.

ArmA failed? The sales figures would certainly suggest a different story.

Your relentless paranoia is bordering on the absurd. Do you have any idea of what equipment BI has? Do you have any idea what BI is doing with said equipment? Just because YOU feel that ArmA has "failed" doesnt mean that BI feels the same way.

[BKnight3 0]

I'm sorry then for being blind.  I guess they beat the sales numbers of BF2?  omg.

ArmA must be the most absolutely bug free, perfect "mil-sim" game out there.  I mean, the content is amazing!  The storyline COMPLETELY blows OFP out of the water and the content is 10x better!  All those vehicles/weapons in OFP made it in ArmA SO easily, and so many great "features!"  

Bohemia's anti-hacker support is wonderful!  Even now, they struggle to make any new hacks right?

The multiplayer community is in the millions!  Even CS, that ancient game, cant compete!  My god, I can't find even a dozen servers open for me to play in!  

Even the forums display the elation!  Look at the number of praises!  Then look at the complaints!  They look at the problems, then they solve it!  OMG, I'm so glad I didnt have to dl anything for all those addons, the default ArmA is awesome for the $50 I spent!

Again, I apologize for being so blind at ArmA's perfection.  All hail BI!  They deserve it!  I'm sure they feel the same way.

[baddo 0]

The sales figures

What sales figures? Where? I am not taking part in the argument between you two. But it would be great if you could point me to The sales figures.

I can see some ratings at amazon.com but that is totally insufficient to know anything about ArmA's sales figures.

[dm 9]

...Generic ranting...

Again, I apologize for being so blind at ArmA's perfection. All hail BI! They deserve it! I'm sure they feel the same way.

Uhh, where did I say that ArmA was perfect? I simply said a lot of people dont consider it a failure. (Which it isnt, a failure wouldnt even have shipped 100 copies)

Dial the hate and paranoia down about 11 steps, and try again.

[Rhodite 3]

I think this is going off topic by quite a bit..

Back to the topic Ladies and Gents..

Thankyou

[Guest Ti0n3r]

I agree with the topic starter. I don't think BIS can't keep using their toy gun sound effects forever. It makes the game seem very 'ameatureish' and '5-years-ago' IMO.

Man, the ArmA M4 sounds almost exactly as a toy gun from my childhood

[NoRailgunner 0]

If realistic and dynamic sounds will be added many of the customers will cry - they only know movie sound effects and of course they will ask for free earplugs. But it would be nice buying game with such stuff, hehe can i get the marketing $% now?

[shinRaiden 0]

The premise on which this complaint was lodged is based on a logical foundation of "d'oh" and fail. It demands not only the impossible, but asks for a specific solution that is mutually exclusive of the desired results.

To start, consider an analogy of visualization. Much debate has been made over artificial textures vs 'awesome' photorealistic textures. There is an intrinsic difference there, an understanding of which requires an elementary/primary school education in the primitive principles of science.

With photo-based textures, you are attempting to use as a surface the reflection of the surface, not the surface itself. This is manifest by the various artifacts present in phototextures. Instead, proper texturing should instead attempt to define the surface by it's pre-emmissive/reflective properties. Errors after that point can then be fairly blamed on the engine for observed visual errors, which would launch into a wholely unrelated topic.

The point in summary, and as likewise applies to audio, is that the OP requested that (and as has/is being done by various addon makers - ie YBSM) sounds be changed so that the source content is actually the observed content, and no explanation given as to what sort of observed transformation should then be applied to unmangle the logically proper mangling of said 'uber-reference material'.

So what is a sound and how to fix the problem? Audio is the harmonic modulation of atmospheric pressure creating a physical effect on the observer. Naturally observed from inumerable reflective and ray-casting sources, it is simulated primarily by highly-directional limited-range 2-dimensional surfaces in 3-dimensional space, as opposed to the commonly 3-dimensional volumetric natural sources. Multi-channel surround sound replication only adds additional linear points, and if the source material is not recorded in locationally-distinct tracks, must be artificially interpolated.

You're faced with two rather pleasant options for the purists.

Option 1 : Perfect Audio

To obtain perfect audio, you can not record the sound itself, except as part of the calibration process for determining the source itself. Rather, you need to sample and model the primary source, be it in whatever aspect of fluid, solid, or thermo dynamics. Once you have a model of the pressure envelope, rate of change, propagation force and speed, and all the other lovely parameters that are way over my head, then you can then recreate those effects, calculating on the client-side the ray-casted collision and blending of the different pressure waves and dynamically create a channeled audio feed from that.

Calculating and distributing such data would be, in no uncertain terms, computationally significant.

Option B : Absurd Fidelity

There is, however, another option as a viable interim workaround. You can - in theory - take whatever device you need to sample the audio from to a premier anechoic chamber, place multiple recording stations enveloping the device in spherical positioning, cause ever possible sound in every possible operating condition from said device, store them all, then interpolate them back as blended multiple channels.

Network traffic would be slightly more than current requirements, and as is evidenced by the market presence of Halo3 Collectors Edition Xbox 360's with "Collector's box edition" premium markup packaging on bundle games, the market can afford a 300% game price markup.

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ]

Audio is the harmonic modulation of atmospheric pressure creating a physical effect on the observer. Naturally observed from inumerable reflective and ray-casting sources...

It's not clear from your statement whether you are talking about virtual or real sound, but it sounds like you're saying that real sound emanates as rays. This would be conclusion one must reach from the context of the preceding sentences. I'm sure, though, that you know as well as I, and most people reading this thread, that sound travels as waves. It does not have the same wave-like yet ray-like behaviour as electromagnetic radiation, and behaves as waves only.

[shinRaiden 0]

Correct, I cheated and skipped a couple steps for brevity.

The pressure indeed propagates as waves, however as the entire waveform constitutes a vast amount of data I logically simplified it by implying ray-analogous vectors with fall-off curves, that could then be sorted for collisions to then create compound samples as required.

Secondly, I also wished to draw an analogy to visual ray-casting's technical complexity, which is related. The reason visual engines do not use ray-casting for realtime lighting is because the sequential processing load induces an unacceptable amount of latency.

Creating an enclosed BSP map (Doom, Quake, CoD, etc) gives you the ability to create a lighting and audio pre-map defining the occlusion and effect zones by ray-sampling the entire map statically, in ways that are not possible in the realtime requirements of the exterior environment dynamic model of the OFP/ArmA engine. As a result, shortcuts (aka optimizations) must be decided on and at some point someone is going to complain.

Now this supposedly awesome reference sound may be 'accurate' from the recorded point of observation. I see no suggestions from the original poster though as to how to remove the propagation and environmental and recording effects to then make the sound a suitable source sound. Secondly, the sound management system, particularly with channel management and mixing, is handled by SDK libraries outside of BIS's control.

The final nail in the coffin is that the viable market of normal sensible people for this entertainment product on average does not have an audio system configured to adequately replicate the content they are demanding. Most users have have a noisey/lossy motherboard chipset that they've never tweaked the settings on, that clicks when their hard drive is accessed, and have that plugged into whatever headset or speaker pair is handy. If they've plugged in a 'surround' system, they've shoved it under a desk or anywhere but an acoustically calibrated studio.

As such, they are unable to properly experience due to their own lack of commitment to what they insist someone else grovel to them for.

[max power 21]

That's a black and white argument. TOP is suggesting improvements to the appeal of ArmA's sound scape, and you're countering with an argument that's pretty much an identical form to BKnight3's outlandish piss-take. You're saying that improvements can't be made because the technology isn't adequate to make a perfect replication of real life. I didn't see anyone in this thread call for that, only that they thought that realistically recorded sound like was done for call of duty would be more appealing. There is a lot of room for improvement in ArmA's sound in terms of appeal. The fact that a new sound mod comes out every week is testament to that.

[stock762 0]

haha BK go play CSS then buddy, it's alright he's just a kid.

[BKnight3 0]

haha BK go play CSS then buddy, it's alright he's just a kid.

Oh, absolutely.  At least VAC tries to do something.  And yes, I'm just a kid.  Who happens to have been enlisted in the military for six long years and almost joined the naval intel scene.  Don't insult me.

FYI, I'm being anal as hell on this subject because of my utter hatred of military contractors.  You should get what you pay for.  

Have you ever held $10000 worth of equipment?  Would you believe that equipment would be a simple rubber gasket 2in in diameter with a metal ring?  Would you pay $200 for 10 oz of dishwasher fluid?  I wouldn't but the higher ups know better than me.

And concerning a previous post: NO they did not fail in getting MONEY.

They DID fail in satiating a community.  How much of the community will remain once the damage is done?  How much of the community will remain loyal/faithful for ArmA2?  Will it be worth the money?  And to Chops:  you are not alone buddy, the 21 pages of ArmA is just ... disappointing thread, is testament to that.

Again, forgive this drunken sailor.

[shinRaiden 0]

Then you lack an elementary understanding of logistical organization and business processes.

That $10000 part may only have $1000 worth of materials and components. But also factored into the total cost are the legal fees to maintain regulatory compliance, service and support costs - which can be substantially escalated in various environments, audited quality control processes which cost substantially more than 'normal' processes etc.

Several of the 'classic' cases were where the ordering entity required a product that was no longer produced, and required the very low quantity be made in the same contracted and certified process as the original parts. In cases where the original tooling is no longer available, or has deteriorated, this will exponentially increased the costs beyond normal recoup ratios.

Finally, standard account practices prevent the bundling of parts for one contracted program to be bundled and 'stealth billed' to an unrelated project.

Now to very specifically the topic at hand. Audio in ArmA consists of the following components :

* Audio files

* Config properties

* Engine audio processing

* OpenAL system

OpenAL, as well as EAX, and DirectSound, have some fairly specific limits on what it can and can't do, ie how many simultaneous files/channels it can mix, and what it can render with crappy hardware.

That then determines what the engine can allow out, so the engine has to calculate and cull sounds on-demand along with engine/environment specific flags and effects.

The Config files, for optimization, only have specific base modifications to the initial sounds. This results in the very real situation of the audio effect not having a proper propagation envelope, with large ranges potentially outside the 'proper' observation range.

Lastly, with the audio files, how do you propose the BIS go about obtaining precision calibrated audio sources, that will work uniformly in all operating environments, in all virtual climes, and with all entity degradation stats?