suggestion about models structure

[vilas 477]

to not just criticize and to help developers:

I and some other people are complaining about small realism and poor destruction-engine

so there is my suggestion:

model should contain something like "materialstructure" LOD

than BIS can make in this LOD structure divided by materials

now in "fire geometry" we have structure, but with one material, which causes destruction of whole model :/

my suggestion is:

give materials like soft_armor, hard_armor, important_parts

than give parameter in config like penetration_barier fo S_A and H_A materials,

S_A, H_A materials can simulate steel plates, so firing at such plate will not cause vehicle dammage, but kill crew inside

for example if you make car/apc :

soft = 100, hard =300

you give soft on top of vehicle,

hard on front, sides

so if i will fire from gun which ammo has hit=200

it should penetrate "soft" material and kill AI inside, but such ammo cannot penetrate structure made of "hard" material

than we can simmulate stronger and weaker parts of model

for god sake, firing at door or side of apc cannot cause vehicle burn !!!

such S_A and H_A should not cause dammage to vehicle

other parts can be made of "important" materials, hiting such part of model will cause burn, explosion - like now we have in OFP and ARMA 1

for example:

if you make APC like M113

crew protecting plates can be H_A from front and sides, S_A from back, top, important can be place where engine is

than we can have soldier with working vest

than we can give armor plates added to for example "uparmored" vehicle

such material structure is not complicated, but it can improve realism much much more

i wanna avoid in next game situation , where

firing to simple metal dors of truck from 12.7 (which can be easily penetrated by 7.62) causes driver alive left from car

1mm steel in truck doors do not protect more than simple glass

if i can kill man throught window using 7.62 - the same should go to the other thin metal sheets thick 1 mm

but if we wanna make addon like extra-uparmored truck with metal plates, than we can give in such LOD "hard" element (for example in config we can give this hard material penetration barrier =50, so than it will simulate us 8-10 mm of steel)

this dammage structure as now we have is not realistic at all

REAL armored vehicle is dammaged when bullet penetrate material, , blows inside etc.

now in ARMA/OFP we have to fire "number" of bullets of one type to make dammage to vehicle

in real life one stronger bullet can do this job, and if bullet is too weak, no matter how many we fire to destroy, because it won't happen

firing 3 RPG to one tank, firing 1 RPG to other is also not sense

in real life sometimes in one part of tank one cumulative RPG is enough

simple "hit" parameter of bullet and simple "armor" for whole vehicle is not enough

[klamacz 448]

great suggestion Vilas, best I heard last time

It will give independency between destruction/damage modelling and engine.

I'm signing this by both hands. More features in editable configs, more possibilities for addonmakers.

[vilas 477]

thank you

id oubt if my suggestion will be used, i am afraid that next "game" will be just upgraded graphically, but not in direction of physics/realism

BIS made ARMA graphics super, but they left "realism" far behind

new structure of models can simulate real dammage effects

for example :

car can be made only off "soft", soft can have penetration barrier=5, important parts like engine, fuel, electronics can be one block inside of car with "armor" parameter like now it is made

for example APC like BTR can be made - body on front and sides from "hard" with parameter of penetr.=50, top of APC can have p.p=20, and "important" inside of this "sheet" structure

so if bullet with hit=100 will hit in APC it will penetrate "body" and kill personell inside (it can be explosive bullet) or destroy engine or other and than APC will be inflames

but when we fire 20 bullets with hit=20, than no dammage to this APC should be made

in ARMA you can destroy M113/BMP with 300 5.56 mm bullets from M4, M16, M249 NONSENSE !!!

in ARMA other man tested that tank T72 can be destroyed with 500/600 7.62 mm bullets from PK !!!

in OFP/ARMA we have dammege engine in which every "bullet hit" takes away "armor" of vehicles

mu suggestion can help to solve it

other example :

chopper - like Mi24

pilot and gunner are protected by armor plates, but i don't belive that transport (soldiers in cargo) will stay alive after serie of 12.7 mm in transport part (where 8 soldiers sit)

for me nonsense in game is that when i fire from rifle i can kill driver in car firing through the window, while thin steel doors gave no protection too in real

tank:

for tank BIS can do even 3 materials

soft=300, hard=800, midle=500

hard will be used for front of turret, middle on rest of tank except places where is soft on top, on rear of engine part

important can be some cubics simulationg electronics, ammo, engine etc.

from my suggested materials model can be made as "body"

and inside of it there will be important parts

------------------------------------

my proposition for "engine" algorytm

if than:

if hit of bullet is stronger than material of body of vehicle than goes through and makes dammage to first target met (like now) is it important part or crew

if hit of bullet is not stronger than material that is fired/hit at than only sound/light effects like small sparks

so when BIS make new tank with my materials, all inside can be "important" - in rel life against tanks are used some types of ammo liku cumulative, sabots so whole tank is destroyed after strong hit

but when we talk about APC situation is different, because it has some place for cargo, this place if shot by sabots/penetrative bullets will not cause engine stop, whole crew dead or burned, like after cumulative rocket hit

to avoid problems with simulation probably some other paramter will be needed to ammo

like:

explosion after penetration = 0 or 1

because it will help to simulate frag/cumultive bullets

solid steel/sabot bullet only penetrates armor

but frag/cumulative rocket will destroy personell inside, to simulate this we can give expl_aaft_penetr=1

this will cause explosion after penetration

for grenades for grenadelauncher this paramter will be =0

if we fire from explosive bullet on car it will blow it up

if we will fire by such bullet in tank, and this bullet will be weaker than armor, it will cause explosion outside of tank and light effects

sabot can have smaller hit area than fragmentation bullet

in real life sabot kills personel by fragments of tank armor

sabot has no explosives inside like anti-house bullets (i don't know how in english we call such "destroying" in Polish language "burzacy" , used to howitzers and etc.)

so new bulltes can have new paramters:

- hit < shows power of penetration

- blow <shows power of explosion, destructive power

- explos_aft_penetr < as written above

- expl_range <range of destructive effect

my propositions:

1) average bullets for rifles/mguns

hit=10, blow=10 ex=1 e_r=0.05

(hit will help penetrate vest, but blow will react killing soldier)

2) bullet with some explosives, like 40 mm

hit=50, blow=20, ex=1, e_r=1

3) mortar/howwitzer ammo (will explode, but not penetrate)

hit=50, blow=100-500, ex=0, e_r=10

4)grenade

hit=1, blow=20, ex=0, e_r=7

5) sabot

hit=800, blow=600, ex=1, e_r=0.5

6) rpg/cumulative

hit=800, blow=800, ex=1, e_r=2 (it will cause killing of whole personell in tank, APC simulating burning them)

than "important" parts inside tank can have armor=400,

in this config "hit" do not mean "power" of bullet like in OFP/ARMA

power is "blow"

if something is made of "important" like human body

whole "blow" energy will cause dammage like now we have in ARMA !!!

than grenade will kill man

but man in APC will not be hurted by even 10 grenades blowing near vehicles, because armor will protect against power of explosion

my suggestion will not work on buildings !!!

it is only for vehicles !

[vilas 477]

i wonder what can be opinion of BIS about such model structure suggestion

i hope developing ARMA 2 is not too far to make more changes in engine/models itself

i also hope i will not have to buy new PC :/

[vilas 477]

i thought people would be more interested in this idea about more realism with no big effort, but as i see - noone interested ?

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Anything that adds to the game in a realistic and useful way has my vote. But just how hard it really is to implement only BIS can tell.

[jtec 0]

I love the idea too! The damage material could be used all over the place too but im wondering will it add just a lot more cpu processes that already seem to burden Arma with slow frame rates while zooming foilage. And add more lag to online games? Saying that Arma 2 will be using more then one core so maybe a large amount of strain will be taken off the cpu.

[vilas 477]

zooming at foliage is LOD "resolution", it is graphic

i am talking about LOD "structure" invisible for players

now in every model we have LOD "geometry", "fire geometry"

my idea "structure" is something like "fire geometry" but is lets say "2 layers LOD"

one layer is bod of vehicle made of soft/hard

and other layer (like now "fire geometry") is important parts causing dammage to vehicle

of course it can be made in one or two LODs

my proposition is just other "fire geometry" LOD and some engine/materials/bullets changes

[simba 0]

The idea is certainly good but 2 things :

- why should we create a new lod in order to attribute "penetration material " isn't it easier to simply do it into fire geo ?

- what about this ?

at the bottom

Quote[/b] ]RVMAT files are also used in geometry LODs for defining physical properties (the idea behind this is to be able to use one set of physical material definitions on many different surfaces that may still have different visual representation). It is done via a link to *.bisurf file.

[Jack 0]

This is an excellent idea Vilas, and I hope that a next generation game can accomodate these relatively simple suggestions.

[vilas 477]

RVMAT is mostly to graphic properties, textures

not to penetration/protection

[TheJay 0]

In this interview that Vojtzech posted earlier, they mentioned that they have penetrable materials in the game. Hopefully, these will be used on vehicles as well.

[dm 9]

RVMAT is mostly to graphic properties, textures

not to penetration/protection

Correctly setup RVMATs can actually have quite a large range of effects on penetrability.

[simba 0]

Would you mind to tell us a little more Deadmeat ?

[vilas 477]

?

as in this WIKI link shown, there was some "not implemented in ARMA" things

other thing is penetrability, other IF whole car is dammaged after shot in door

but in ARMA i cannot see things like:

- shot in door of URAL and it makes the same effect as shoting in window

- shot from 20 mm in back side of M113, BMP and one of soldiers in transport is dead

- some shots from 20 mm takes no effect on T72 turret

- shots in different parts of APC vehicles making different dammages

[simba 0]

Quote[/b] ]other IF whole car is dammaged after shot in door

this is a problem that Rvmat wouldn't fix, but there is no comment about bulletpenetrability not working...

Quote[/b] ]0.1;

dust=0.1;

bulletPenetrability=150;

// distance in mm that a bullet with speed 1000 m/s go until it stops. Slowdown is calculated linear.

soundEnviron=Empty;

isWater=false;

thickness=10 // not implemented in ArmA

density=2500 // kg/m3, but it has actually no real value to ArmA engine too

[vilas 477]

what will give you slowing down bullet if thickness is not working ?

maybe it is only for "curtains"

of course in arma you can shoot throught steel sheet fence, wood fence as i remember, but it is not in vehicles as i know

look at paramter :

"distance in mm that a bullet with speed 1000 m/s go until it stops. Slowdown is calculated linear"

okay , but if thickness is not implemented, what this function will give you ?

this probably is made by BIS for VBS2 engine, but someone from BIS should make it clear for us

look:

you have parameter about stopping bullet by material, but thick=0 because not implemented

so stoping =0 or stoping not implemented too

those parameters should be in cooperation, am I correct ?

[simba 0]

true vilas.

I also tried to apply .bisurf to a helicopter with no succes, and it worked perfectly for a house...

I never said your suggestions were bad I just think that the current system should be improved/finished.

I'm sure this will be done for ArmA II.

[vilas 477]

up :P

[mr.g-c 6]

Hope this will be a sticky thread soon, acting as a summary of all community suggested model changes.

Here is mine:

- When looking through any zoom Scope like ACOG you should still see the enviroment around it, so only the part you see in the area in the scope should be zoomed while the rest is normal.

Just like on this picture:

[vilas 477]

but probably my structure suggestions will not be in use :/

as your scope suggestion

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Yeah scopes like that would be good, but they do drain FPS a lot, having to render the world (or part of it) twice.

[mr.g-c 6]

Yeah scopes like that would be good, but they do drain FPS a lot, having to render the world (or part of it) twice.

That is right, but a OFP-Mod can do it in OFP-Engine without any noticeable performance-drop, so it must be possible on the multi-core optimized Arma2 too.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Can I see this mod? Link?

[dm 9]

Yeah scopes like that would be good, but they do drain FPS a lot, having to render the world (or part of it) twice.

That is right, but a OFP-Mod can do it in OFP-Engine without any noticeable performance-drop, so it must be possible on the multi-core optimized Arma2 too.

Can I see this mod? Link?

Agreed, first time I've heard of it...