Russian ‘spy’ planes put RAF on Cold War alert

[Iron+Cross 0]

Baddo very true,

Duno if i made a good post as i can never remember the exact details, but if you used each section as a search thingy on google/yahoo you would find news reports to those effects.

there are also some good double edged reviews on yahoo editorials.

as for

Quote[/b] ]I at first wrote here some long examples of hypocrisy from both sides, but decided to delete them as it went too much into the direction of an emotional rant. I'll settle for saying that there was lots of hypocrisy from Western countries and USSR/Russia when it comes to what happened in WW II.

well I prefer try & keep picking away at Propaganda when i can remember the nasty little web's they weave, & what the origonal truth's were.

Just my little contribution to humanity when i can be botherd, the way i see it is if it makes some one think twice before picking up a weapon & taking political propaganda at face value it mite save some 3rd worlders life.

and as for

Quote[/b] ]Both sides give a picture of themselfs as being good, but at the same time there are crimes committed by both. I see this has unfortunately not changed since WW II. I guess that's just the way human nature is.

totaly agree, but you missed somthing,

While Human nature is the catalyst, Proportional Representation is the perpetual Fuel.

Although as the old saying go's you need 3 things for fire, in this case i would say the 3rd is possibly Money, although im sure many would say Religion, although if you study history you would no most of the time its mearly a way to motivate the masses to do your bidding.

@ trevor

Quote[/b] ]Russia paid in human casulties true enough, but without the US industrial might, and UK and Polish inteligence the war could not have been won

If the Polish would have Granted the Russians an Coridor (Land/Air) to now Czech rep/Slovak Rep. to help Fight the Germans my Grand father wouldent have had to retreat from Cesky tesin, As the Czech's & Russians had a mutual Defence pact, which could have stunted the Germans Advance towords the Oil in the Balkans/Middle east, & cut the War Short, although im aware there were more factors involved this, could have shortend it.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

@ trevor

Quote[/b] ]Russia paid in human casulties true enough, but without the US industrial might, and UK and Polish inteligence the war could not have been won

If the Polish would have Granted the Russians an Coridor (Land/Air) to now Czech rep/Slovak Rep.  to help Fight the Germans my Grand father wouldent have had to retreat from Cesky tesin, As the Czech's & Russians had a mutual Defence pact, which could have stunted the Germans Advance towords the Oil in the Balkans/Middle east, & cut the War Short, although im aware there were more factors involved this, could have shortend it.

Thats pretty easy to say, but remember until recently Poland had been part of the Russian Empire.  Theres no way in hell Poland would have accepted that sort of deal.  A wise choice anyway concidering Russia invaded Poland alongside Germany in 1939.  Russia concidered Poland there own territory, that would be like czechslovakia opening its doors freely to Nazi Germany.  Its a what if scenario which realisticly wasnt an option, and i think any pole then and now would agree.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

@ trevor

Quote[/b] ]Russia paid in human casulties true enough, but without the US industrial might, and UK and Polish inteligence the war could not have been won

If the Polish would have Granted the Russians an Coridor (Land/Air) to now Czech rep/Slovak Rep.  to help Fight the Germans my Grand father wouldent have had to retreat from Cesky tesin, As the Czech's & Russians had a mutual Defence pact, which could have stunted the Germans Advance towords the Oil in the Balkans/Middle east, & cut the War Short, although im aware there were more factors involved this, could have shortend it.

Thats pretty easy to say, but remember until recently Poland had been part of the Russian Empire.  Theres no way in hell Poland would have accepted that sort of deal.  A wise choice anyway concidering Russia invaded Poland alongside Germany in 1939.  Russia concidered Poland there own territory, that would be like czechslovakia opening its doors freely to Nazi Germany.  Its a what if scenario which realisticly wasnt an option, and i think any pole then and now would agree.

Don't forget that part of Checoslovakia was already part of Germany, even before 1939, namely the "Sudetenland", so it's not that Germany didn't have any presence in Checoslovakia back then...

But discussing WWII is off-topic, we should rather be discussing what could lead to WWIII, since the divergence on the "ABM-Shield" policies between the US and Russia, as well as the tensions due to the Litvinienko assassination between Russia and the UK, are really chilling the temperature... I guess it's back to the Cold War, as it's now what? 20 years since Gorby toyed around with the ideas of Glasnost? I guess history is really in a hurry to repeat itself...

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

the cold war was never the start of russias tension with the west, that should also be remembered.  The distrust goes back before even communism.  Russia has always been percieved as backwards by western europe.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

I wonder how much european oppinion counts this time around, how good Europe would be able to defend itself, without any other help... Are we already self-sufficient, defense-wise? Because we're a more juicy target for conventional warfare than the US, if the Bear looses its temper real bad...

[stevevcb 3]

Here's a crazy idea, but one that just might work: why don't we all, as a species, just treat each other with respect and drop all this petty confrontational crap? I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much rather that all our countries were civil and courteous towards each other than spend the next twenty-odd years living under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation over some stupid dispute that could be settled with mere words.

We all bleed the same colour, no matter where we're from or what we believe. Isn't it time we remembered that instead of letting politicians drag us into pointless conflicts with each other?

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Here's a crazy idea, but one that just might work: why don't we all, as a species, just treat each other with respect and drop all this petty confrontational crap? I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much rather that all our countries were civil and courteous towards each other than spend the next twenty-odd years living under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation over some stupid dispute that could be settled with mere words.

We all bleed the same colour, no matter where we're from or what we believe. Isn't it time we remembered that instead of letting politicians drag us into pointless conflicts with each other?

Amen to that! Unfortunately, reality differs from such simple ideas to an extent that makes it sound utopian...

[baddo 0]

Yep Kooky

When Finland was joining the European Union in the 1990's, I thought it was a great idea, I was a youngster at the time, and I still think it was a great idea after thinking about it as an adult for some years. The biggest benefit for Europe from the Union is that The Countries who have been choking each other every now and then throughout history could live together in a more peaceful way, as they would have a clear place, a forum, to meet regularly and discuss about what disturbs them, what is good what is bad, throw words around and not bombs and let the heat out that way.

In my opinion that alone was a good-enough reason for Finland to also join the EU, to be part of that forum where disputes can be solved without using mass-murder like in WW I & WW II. It's the small countries like this I'm living in, which also get dragged into the mass-murder events even if they have absolutely nothing to do with why the whole event got started. As an example look at WW II, we did not want to fight but we had no choice in practice but to use weapons. So we benefit greatly too if the bigger countries can live in peace with each other.

A problem I see is that the USA can get too much involved in Europe. I won't thank them if they cause unrest in Europe by expanding their area of influence. It has already happened in some scale, and as far as I can see, the situation is not going to get any better if they keep on doing what they have been doing recently.

To make myself more clear, I am not that much afraid of what Russia does, I am much more afraid of what the USA does.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

i couldnt agree more baddo.

[Baff1 0]

Hell its about time, I mean Boris, & the others were just doing as NATO told em to.

I mean i dunno about you guys but if i was told/treated by NATO/EU like this for the past 15 years:

No you cant join NATO

No you (Russia) cant join E.U, But We will take any of the States that Break away from your Federation, after years of us, destablising the regions we want.

Trade sactions will be kept inplace almost indefinatly, to control you.

You cant move your own army's around your own country unless you ask us permission, Which you wont get.

You Cant make New types of Nukes, or Land mines but we can.

You Cant Trade as much Weapons with poor county's as we can or you will be be sanctiond.

You have to Give us (NATO HQ) full lists of all if any military movements & stocks of good's/munitions regularly, so we can put it up on our Big NATO map that only NATO countrys can look at, but you CANT.

You have to sell us your natural resources Cheaply like Titanium for our new F-35's Cheaply or your in trouble..

No You Cant Build Missle defence shields Near NATO country's but we can build near yours OR else.

No you cant have full strength Bases around the world but we can, & we can have them rite on your door step, but you cant.

We can have allies with places like Saudi but you cant or your Evil.

We can Fund Pro American/NATO political partys in countrys Near your borders, but you cant or your comiting a crime.

We have Used Nukes/Chemical weapons on people, but you cant. (U.S)

We can sell Chemical weapons to rebel groups that would overthrow the government & let us pump out natural resources we want, but if you do it its a CRIME! (U.S/U.K/NATO)

well i'd be telling those people to "Get it Up YEE"

 

Try puting yourselves in Russia's shoe's, Attacked on all side's politicaly, Financialy, Moraly, & Stratigicly.

Yet When you Help NATO they praise you for it, Yet they (NATO) treat you constantly like an enemy, in all respects.

Whats your options?

This one about sums it up for me.

A weak Russia isn't doing me any favours.

I still think of Russia as the people best equiped to keep stability in their area's of influence.

The status quo suits me fine, any power vacuums or change to the existing balance of power runs the risk of war.

EU expansion, US expansion, NATO expansion....it's all bad.

In fact with the EU marching on the way it is, a strong Russia may well be the kind of friend my country needs once more.

Diplomatically Britain is getting itself necklocked into a confrontational position it is not looking for.

The U.S. is pushing for NATO expansion into ex-Warsaw Pact countries and we don't have enough influence to stop it.

Leaving us in mutual defence pacts with people we are neither able to or intrested in defending.

The EU Human Rights Treaty disbars us from deporting troublemakers, terrorists and murderers.  

Leaving us unable to deport foreign dissidents such a Litvenko upon the request of their sovereign governments.

So here we are again. Facing off with our traditional strongest of allies.

Still too weak to make our own way in the world.

If we are ever to be independant again, or even to retain our current level of independance further, we need a strong Russia willing to assert itself in the world.

With regards to spyplanes, the age of the airframe bears no relation to the surveillance equipment housed inside.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

With regards to spyplanes, the age of the airframe bears no relation to the surveillance equipment housed inside.

Russia has always appreciated the value of sizeable aircraft as representantion of their own greatness (Maxim Gorki anyone) so I think it's a valid point that the Bear is only used for its show-off value in times of peace... Now that it's utterly obsolete considering its technology (except for the bomber role perhaps - but I don't think the US uses the B-52 for recon/intel missions anymore... ) .

[Iron+Cross 0]

Well, I agree with Kooky, But i still Think Politicians are to blame,

Get rid of em & bring in a Direct Democracy,

The way i see it is,

If we can spend so much time to Vote on our Sky Digital Boxes for best football teams,

we can spend 2 minutes reading about the background on a proposed war vote on whether there is enough evidence to justify an invasion & kill people from another place.

Or personaly Id rather have a vote on how much welfare money people get, to have kids & get payed for it?!?

[Baff1 0]

That's a very dangerous system.

Give the people the vote and all minorities will be persecuted.

It's the democratic way.

Look what happened to the Jews when the Germans started giving the people all those referendums.

The majority will always vote against the minority. In a direct democracy all minorities have zero political influence, the only way they have to address percieved injustice against them is through revolt.

The political process does not cater to them.

Majority rule is the greatest weakness of the democratic process. It's flaw.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

This is OT but in theory, the democracy means the power of the majority over the minority, but in practice, it's the power of a minority (the politicians) over the majority (everybody else who is not a politician)...

[Iron+Cross 0]

Not that i mean to be O/T as I belive this is one of the core problems of these topics, yet is seldom adressd due to the scale of it & were all more realy into the military stuff

But as for

Quote[/b] ]Give the people the vote and all minorities will be persecuted.

Did I say take away the Judicial System to over see the Legality of Laws Motiond, or even our Constitutions???

(the answer is No, try reading again.)

I find thats one hell of a jump in conclusion from Liberty to Nazis.

And finaly,

Quote[/b] ]but in theory, the democracy means the power of the majority over the minority,

True enough in a very RAW format, that would be like taking Republicanism as Raw Roman style senate in toga's,

But were not talking about 2000+ years ago.

Any ways I think that chap a few posts back was right about about the Bear not representing the hardware onboard.

Any guese on where the "Flashpoint" might be?

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Any guese on where the "Flashpoint" might be?

Probably coming from a photographic camera used by one of the Bear's crewmembers?  

J/K

I think that if Russia wanted to get really serious it would start to do something about reintegrating it's neighbour states in eastern Europe to something more "submissive" to the power of the russian army... Especially with the ABM shield being planned to be deployed in eastern Europe... *gulp* I still wonder if that's a wise decision to plant that there... IMHO maybe it would have been wiser to deploy that shield in one of the former Yugoslavia countries... Putin might not have felt that threatened that way, perhaps...

[Iron+Cross 0]

lol,

I agree, at least they could have like a miniture MAD system inplace, Nato train to Protect the ABM sites,

And the Federation trains to capture them with some confidence that they can take it if they need to.

Is China Allied to Russia yet or not? an a competitor?

[Spokesperson 0]

Yugoslavia, North Korea, and the Soviet Union has shot down US spy planes on numerous occasions.

Quote[/b] ]Somewhat amusing considering the russians had some american planes...

The first day of the war in the east. The luftwaffe blew huge parts of the Soviet airforce while being on the ground. Sure the US might have sent the USSR some vehicles in the lend and lease agreement. But one has to remember that these things weren't more than a few percent of the total armaments. The US sent poor tanks and similar things of limited use to the USSR.

Besides, it can't make the intentional delay of the opening of western front undone. The USSR annihilated more than 70% of the nazi troops that were killed during the war.

Btw. Churchill admired fascism and Mussolini.

im sorry but this is simply not true.  Russia hates to admit it but during the war it used thousands of tonnes of US and UK supplies.  Not only did this include tanks, aircraft and weapons but also food, medical equipment and gasoline.  As for the equipment being second rate, also not true, concidering the US was shipping brand new M4 Sherman tanks.  These tanks were so much better quality than the Russian equivalent they bagan to mount russian t-30 turrets for a fear of being unable to stockpile enough US tank shells.  Ofcourse there never was a shortage due to the vast amount the USA supplied to Russia.

Russia paid in human casulties true enough, but without the US industrial might, and UK and Polish inteligence the war could not have been won.  Imagine if Germany didnt have to divert millions of troops to defending Norway,  France,  North Africa and Italy,  not to mention the thousands used to guard Allied aircrew and Combat troops in POW camps.  I would imagine they would have sucesfully taken Moscow if they hadnt.  

As for the western powers deliberatly delaying the second front, firstly there was a war in the east against Japan (which Stalin took little notice of until the opertunity to grab some of Manchuria appeared),  Secondly a second front in europe already existed in Italy AND lastly and perhaps most importantly the planning for D-Day had to be complete and rigorous following the disaster at Dieppe which you have probably never heard of.

It's very true. You're just repeating US school-book propaganda.

The US sent 7,056 tanks. Among them around 4000 sherman tanks, just like you said. However, sherman tanks were worthless compared to german and russian ones. They had high turrets and too light cannons.

The tank that won the world war 2 was the

T-34

The USSR produced 105,251 tanks (57,000 T-34s) in total during the war meanwhile having its whole industrial base moved or burned. (The US total figure was 88,410).

The US sent 14,795 aircraft. The USSR produced 157,261 during the war. One famous

plane was the IL-2 produced before the lend and lease like most soviet designs. Despite your claim that the soviet reused technology for their armaments.

US Deliveries to the USSR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#US_deliveries_to_USSR

Soviet tank production

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...._War_II

Military production

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II

Largest tank battle in history (USSR vs Nazi tank show-off)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_kursk#Operation_Citadel

World War 2 losses:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2-loss.htm

One flag = 100 000 dead.

Based on mean values from many dictionaries. Here: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

US didn't do shit compared to the amount of movies they spread. It's just the old standard liberal hypocrite propaganda. But we're so used to it so we consider them truths (even if they are contradictory).

Someone asked me if I'm anti-western. Yes I am. I've seen enough of the hypocrisy. But I'm not pro-east by any means. I dislike Russia and all what they do very much. But it's not their fault. They're victims of western hypocrisy.

[Spokesperson 0]

About democracy; we've got no democracy. Old Athens claimed itself to be democratic. Only free men had the right to vote. Is that democratic? No, it's just a name for another kind of dictatorship.

True democracy is the dictatorship of the people. In Greece "democracy" was just another word for dictatorship of the elite.

In the 19th Century there were a lot of states calling themselves democratic. But votes were distributed per wealth. Again, is that democratic? No.

Now our countries call themselves democratic, sure we can vote and everyone has got an equal amount of votes. But is this the dictatorship of the people? Again, no!

Democracy is both political and economical. We've got half of the political democracy with our voting rights, but economical democracy is a prerequisite for full political democracy. People with money, the very rich, are the only ones who get the -real- chance to get elected and fund their campaigns. Money totally controls the flow of information.

Economic democracy is that workers or the people itself run their factories or whatever they work in. Production and needs get voted over. It prohibits the right of the few to control the whole economy of a country. The people must be in charge of both the economy and politics in a true democratic country.

[Iron+Cross 0]

Well said Spokesperson thats a great information well you found there.  

your starting to win me round again I thought the whole politics thing after 3 years of study on it was a farse, & thats why i was looking for an alternative, "Direct Democracy"

here is one great example, although it still apeases the politicains by leting them keep there jobs. but it should adress some of your points.

Direct Democracy overview in the 21st century

And I totaly agree to a point, on the ecenomic isse the people need control of things like water fuel, as longs it dont impose/curb the rights of the individual's, Ala Motorway through your home & you got no say sort of thing..

Look at whats happening in south america people cant get water in some city's, because Coca Cola & miniral water company's are using it, so the poor cant afoard water.

Personally I think it will all kick of with Tiwan, if it dose.

& it has some sort of cascade effect thats my thoughts.

ps. looking at that site damn europe's a unhealthy place to live, Statisticly speaking. sickening its always us unarmed civy's that get the brunt of it, maybe the swiss got the idea Arm every one, & at least 7 times over.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

@ spokesperson

point taken,  but you have not defended the view that the USA deliberatly delayed a front in Europe.

Also you should concider that Russia was not alone is mass suffering,  concider the civilian casulties of China, which suffered perhaps even more sencless brutality of an invading force than Russia  (eg, 300,000 civilian casulties at the Battle of Changde alone, 17,530,000 in all)

Perhaps you have also taken me wrongly, i am in no way doubting the large impact Russia had on the outcome of the war, and without it victory would have been much harder.  However i do not feel Russia alone won the war and the US, Canadian, Australian, British, Indian and countless others participation should be so casually criticised,  with these nations troops facing similar ferocious fighting and appaling conditions.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]Sure the US might have sent the USSR some vehicles in the lend and lease agreement. But one has to remember that these things weren't more than a few percent of the total armaments. The US sent poor tanks and similar things of limited use to the USSR.

 On the behalf of all the merchant marines who died in the cold north Atlantic delivering this "junk" as you put it, I say Your welcome.

Quote[/b] ]US didn't do shit

 On the behalf of all the US war dead during world war 2 and my great grand uncle Ted I say unto you, *ahem* Fuck You Ass Hole.

 Russia did her part the US did her part. Spokesperson did jack shit. I wasn't alive either so no I didn't do anything as I could not take part but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit by idle why a little shit like you runs down the blood sweat and tears of thousands of people who fought lost and suffered in that war.

 It’s true a lot of people in the west are ignorant to how big a sacrifice Russia made during the war and the horror that was the eastern front. However to come out and tell them “your grand parents generation didn’t do shit in the war†is only inviting your self to attack.

 So really, fuck you, you little stuck up narcissistic pretentious prick.

 If the moderators decide to ban me or what not citing this as a personal attack then fine I'll take the punishment, it's their board their house their rules. However keep in mind this little punk just made a personal attack on the character of thousands including many of my family who fought and died in that war.

 Good night.

[Spokesperson 0]

This is for china:

It's impossible to prove that the US deliberately delayed the second front. I don't know what to think. But that was the opinion of the eastern leaders. And one thing is for sure, they weren't very happy about it.

Of course the war wasn't fought just by the USSR. But most people tend to think that the US did everything in the war (due to the massive western cold war propaganda machinery). The US had a very important role in the Pacific. But I don't think the bombs were necessary. The USSR had just begun their invasion of Japan from the north. Some of the islands they conquered are still claimed by both sides.

Quote[/b] ]

On the behalf of all the merchant marines who died in the cold north Atlantic delivering this "junk" as you put it, I say Your welcome.

I just stated a fact. But little help is also help. However, one shouldn't speak about it as if it was something very important to the outcome of the war like some people do.

And yes, US didn't do shit _compared_ to what the USSR did. They did do lots, but not if you relate it. The WW2 was primarily a war on the eastern front between Hitler and the USSR.

[Black Sphere 0]

It's impossible to prove that the US deliberately delayed the second front. I don't know what to think.

Then please do us all a favor and stop thinking, then your haed will stop to hurt, you'll see   , and you'll not bring the others on the edge of their tolerance and patience level with your nebuloses, as was the case with Sputnik Monroe.

Quote[/b] ]But that was the opinion of the eastern leaders. And one thing is for sure, they weren't very happy about it.

Huh? What an evidence ...

Quote[/b] ]Of course the war wasn't fought just by the USSR. But most people tend to think that the US did everything in the war (due to the massive western cold war propaganda machinery). The US had a very important role in the Pacific. But I don't think the bombs were necessary. The USSR had just begun their invasion of Japan from the north. Some of the islands they conquered are still claimed by both sides.

But of course, US and whole the world should be a good samaritans and just sit down and allow the USSR to conquer/occupy whole the Europe and Eastrn Asia (and even something more, who knows where (if! ) Stalin's 'appetite' would stop), and to lead them into a socialistical heavens e.g. into a 'democracy' by your liking, Spokesperson.

And NO ONE who knows a thing or two about those times and their circumstances, is saying that US did everything (as you're implying that USSR did everything). Please stop philosophing-politically simplifying about those things, you obviously don't have a clue about (real and true) WW2 history and even less about a strategic constalations and other relations in such (global) conflicts. So please stop feeding us with your opinion, because that what mostly is all that bullshiting of yours in this off-topic section; not a facts but a political opinion, served as a short-sided, pro-eastern, bolshevistic ideology/propaganda (your avatar suits you well).

Quote[/b] ]And yes, US didn't do shit _compared_ to what the USSR did. They did do lots, but not if you relate it. The WW2 was primarily a war on the eastern front between Hitler and the USSR.

What can I say or add after what I already said above ,,, nothing but a happy riding, dude.

And don't tell us you're not not a pro-eastrn; YOU ARE an eastern (a Russian-Soviet Bolshevik), if not physically, then for sure mentally.

To conclude; you're quite a nice anti-pod to Baff1.

[Iron+Cross 0]

Hmm

Quote[/b] ]WW2 was primarily a war on the eastern front between Hitler and the USSR.

you could say that i supose if were talking about human tragedy, but just because less people were killed in western europe & N.Afrika dont mean it was a smaller war in these places.

Now not that im saying any one is worth less than another persion, it happens some times people are worth less in some peoples eyes.. take for instance Jewish law, if you aint a jew your an animal... or go onto Youtube & listen to Nato focres talk about what they think of locals as they shoot at em.

back to cold war, Any one seen those Aroura pic's?

they say they have been geting refueled over scotland??

& have a donut on a loop contrail.

could be taking over from the Black bird?