6thSense.eu Presents: Tracers (Beta)

[Big Nasty 0]

Could we have an update telling us where the mod is and where you plan to go from here?

Cheers.

[ArmaVidz 0]

Could we have an update telling us where the mod is and where you plan to go from here?

Cheers.

Dude, page 11. it was just updated today. And these fellas are still developing it. Until they deem it ready for official "first release" it's in Release Candidate stages.

[froggyluv 2136]

Generally I would always vote "Realism" first. However if the result is that tracers don't help you line up your shots and tip off the enemy that your outta ammo I'd rather have no tracers at all.

Gameplay.

[ArmaVidz 0]

Generally I would always vote "Realism" first. However if the result is that tracers don't help you line up your shots and tip off the enemy that your outta ammo I'd rather have no tracers at all.

Gameplay.

Okay, my final thoughts on ammo loadouts and usage to "be counted":

Sickboy and ThePredator and Mr.Centiped have brought about an awesome modification that was fundamentally essential for night missions and squad leaders marking targets. As well as for soldiers re-aligning their fire.

Real Life Usage:

-Squad leaders marking targets.

-Mandatory for US Army to carry a loadout of tracers (whether they use them or not).

-Loadouts dependant on the soldier's preference.

-According to the military buffs tracers are often not used.

In-ArmA

-Essential for night missions while BIS tracers are disabled.

-Essential for dusk/dawn missions while BIS tracers are disabled.

-Essential for anti-aircraft units as the game engine does not provide enough tactile/target damage/environmental damage or feedback/distance view from first person.

-Loadouts are limited to one loadout per ammo class(?)

-"Players" may use the tracer indication at the end of the magazine as a sign the enemy is reloading.

It seems to me that we're having a good example of how RL does not "port" over to "in-game." If I could look at an air target to the degree I can with my eye tracers would not be needed at all. We'd need to only disable the BIS tracers because of their craptasticness.

My view distance in RL is obviously vastly superior to that ingame. I can notice subtle changes in objects at very high distances which indicate damage (if I'm firing at a target) without the need to light up the target with tracers. This poses a problem in-game as we're limited to a short zoom distance and often times the subtle indications the brain detects are not present ingame. Sound feedback. Tactile feedback from the weapon. Impact feedback of sound and visual cues of impact.  Environmental effectual feedback like dust/smoke and wind affecting the dusk/smoke.

I think Sickboy addressed the ideology we need to follow: "A good balance between realism and gameplay."

My opinion of this mod is that it's inception is to HAVE tracers. Not to "NOT have tracers. " That using this mod assumes that you "want" tracers and accept the mod as such. It does not make sense to me, to create a mod, then disable most of the effects it provides.

Obviously abuse can/will/might occur but that goes with everything in world, and ingame. It should not outweigh the usage or development of the mod as they are a part of  legitamite battlefield equipment.

In dusk or dawn missions the work to "add" soldiers to use tracers rather "exclude" soldiers not using tracers would be horrendous. You want tracers in dusk/dawn missions so that you can see what your putting lead on. Again, tracers take the place of the visual cues that are present in RL; in-game.

Being able to customize the tracer mod would be essential. If possible. It should be left to the individual to modify it to "RL" usages if he/she pleases. The 5 round tracer at beginning/end sounds like a good option, but past that (i could be mistaken) I thought the ammo loadouts were limited to the ammo class that is being customized? aka you can have one loadout for all clips of that ammo class...

My vote: Leave em on. Customize whatever you can with 5 round tracer at beginning/end with the ability to customize the said loadout, if possible. Soldiers do it in RL, leave it up the "soldiers" to further customize the loadout.

[sickboy 13]

I'll respond to the Tracer-settings later..

Quote[/b] ]EDIT: Another possibility -- have a default setting for the mod (one tracer every five rounds, or something), but also have a variable that could be set by the mod user -- and perhaps also by mission creators, in case they wanted to override and force a certain tracer setting -- where tracers would appear every x rounds for rifles, and also perhaps a variable where tracers would appear for the last x rounds in the mag. After all, making the mod flexible will make it appeal to more people, and you've probably coded it each of these ways by now anyway.

This is default functionality dude... A mission maker can FULLY override each and every setting through a very cool SIX_TracersCfg class in the description.ext, see Demo2 and see the included SIX_TracersCfg.hpp mate... Example here: http://pastebin.ca/556504

I do not intend to make it possible for the user himself to change the setting, as it would result in different settings per-player in a MultiPlayer environment, though I could create a Multiplayer Check and when the game's launched in Single Player, you actually could change the settings through a file in the mod... That might be an option, and fairly easy to implement

Random factors is not something I want to go to, esp in Multiplayer this is not handy but Read on;

Furthermore, Full Modifications, like 6thSenseMod (But in future for instance VTE, possibly ModWar Config Mod etc etc), can incorporate the Tracer Addon. They can add magazines that would have tracers every X, or at last X, such magazines can then be put inside ammo boxes and that way a user could decide which magazines he takes with him; kinda like in real. Still everyone's SETTINGS should be the same otherwise Player X sees tracers coming out at 3rd, player Y at 5th and player Z only at last 5, :P and thats exactly what we NOT need

[Panda-PL- 0]

@ ArmaVidz :

Well... since a couple of versions everyone can easilly customize their tracers.

Yes, in their missions, that's what i ment.

Some people argue about what should be the default settings, which doesn't mean they cannot change the settings. It just means they don't want to cahnge the settings and would rather see us changing the defaults to their likings.

As for mods: like Sickboy said: different mods, different configs.

Quote[/b] ]-According to the military buffs tracers are often not used.

I am only interested in those who wear ACUs, like default soldiers in game.

It is not realistic in my oppinion not to have tracers every x rounds in rifles (with assumption that I want to depict US Armed forces and with assumption that I ignore comments comming from people that aren't in such forces and just tell me how they think it should be done by such), but it can be fixed in 6thsense mod version. This one is ment for wider publicity who only want to see tracer rounds on machineguns.

BTW: I had my load of fun watching AA's forums how people without army tags allmost tell the active duty soldiers what they do is wrong.

[ThePredator 0]

I don't like the "what the US forces do has to be correct and implemented in ArmA" point of view.

The SLA might be fictional in this game, but we all know, that it is just a way of political correctness. The russians are no enemy for the last few years and the insurgents don't have the money or manpower for large scale attacks.

Just using tracer settings suited for US forces is wrong and kind of narrow minded. They have more money then brains, if you ask me. Of course they put tracers in their magazines and stuff like that, but what do they have to fear? They won't be attacked because of compromising their position, everyone already knows where they are. Who else is driving vehicles with metal music through baghad?

In ArmA we should concentrate on facts about equipment used by BOTH sides, fictional or not.

Fact is, many units have tracer rounds at the end of their mags to indicate low ammo counts. Fact is, most machinegun belts are factory loaded in 4:1 ratios.

Since ArmA offers the user freedom of movement and action, we should not force the player to use individual preferences of armed forces.

Either put an action menu entry for enabling/disabling tracer load-outs or set the default config to tracers only for machineguns and let the mission designer use their preference.

I don't want to report my position to the enemy by tracers at the end of the mag, because I am a stealthy guy.

Many people want to have tracers for all weapons, because they don't listen to their surroundings and like a more arcadish gameplay, no pun intended.

If this mod is about realistic tracers, we should not use techniques developed by one country, even if this is what we see in-game. There are two groups, three actually. The RACS might be trained by the US but don't have the money to afford tracers or give away their position with that few men they have.

In Armed Assault it does not matter who is who or what year it is. You have to take a look at the tactical and strategical ideology. A large scale war, like it is depicted in Armed Assault, will reduce the useage of tracers on a individual basis.

In WW2, the armies had alot of bucks to spend, but they did not use tracers in every unit for some reason.

In the german army, tracers are used, some units put them at the end of their magazine, but germany does not have the money for alot tracer rounds, in the "boot camp" you hardly see more than 100 live rounds, some get lucky and shoot twice a month with plastic training rounds.

In special warfare units the financial situation is different. But the normal infantryman is not issued tracers. At least that was at my short army time.

[sickboy 13]

Quote[/b] ]Either put an action menu entry for enabling/disabling tracer load-outs or set the default config to tracers only for machineguns and let the mission designer use their preference.

Please read my post at the end of previous page. Already gave examples of even better solutions; Please comment on those instead of a silly "action menu entry" solution LOL

[CameronMcDonald 146]

My vote: 5 (or 3, no biggie) at the end of mags for small arms, 1 in 5 for MGs. No more, no less.

[sickboy 13]

My vote: 5 (or 3, no biggie) at the end of mags for small arms, 1 in 5 for MGs. No more, no less.

Maybe I should open a Poll? ^^

[Maddmatt 1]

My vote: 5 (or 3, no biggie) at the end of mags for small arms, 1 in 5 for MGs. No more, no less.

1 in 5 for MGs I like, but I am completely against 5 at the end of the mag for small arms. It might seem realistic since US soldiers do it in Iraq, but they are not up against a well equipped or well trained army. They don't have to worry as much about giving their position away, especially since a lot of the combat is at very short range.

It does not benefit gameplay at all either. It just alerts the whole battlefield that you are out of ammo and an easy target, and gives away your position at the same time. 1 in 5 (or 1 in 3) for small arms or none at all is my vote

Also a bug: M24 and M107 sniper rifles both have tracers (1 in 3) in game, haven't tested the SLA equivalents yet.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just using tracer settings suited for US forces is wrong and kind of narrow minded.

The fact that soldiers in game wear ACUs and 5-color desert makes BIS narrow-minded? Again: this is your oppinion and not a fact.

We cannot get one setup that will satisfy every single army in the world. The default units are US, default weapons are US weapons and hence I don't understand why would they use FDF or German loadouts.

The resistance side are US trained and equipped.

And I fail to see black pyjamas on opforian side.

Any addon units will have their own configs and will use different settings. (How many times have we been saying this?). Since when does FDF and GErmans use M16s?

Now, does the fact you don't agree with me make me narrow minded? Should I be more open minded and agree with you?

Quote[/b] ]It just alerts the whole battlefield that you are out of ammo and an easy target

Read back in the thread.

Unless you go rambo you are covered by your teammates when reloading and you never are an easy target.

Besides: if this was true why would soldiers do that IRL?

PS: where did I say I want to change current system? I just said it is not realistic in my oppinion.

[Abbe 0]

It would be interesting to see, in a MP enviroment, if there was an option at the ammocrates to take mags without tracers how many tracers acctually would be fired...After a little while I'd say 0 tracers exept for those poor bastards equiped with weapons using factory-made belts with tracers included...

Doesn't mean a thing, just the consecvense of war and survival.

I as well enjoy those nice tracers jumping into the sky, beautifull as hell but as I mentioned, not very realistic.

Maybe an option at the ammocrates or in a loadout could be a possibility?

/Abbe

[sickboy 13]

@ Sniper Rifle Bugs; No worries, looking into those soon, problem is that they share ammo with normal rifles/mg's so i'll just configure them for exclusion

It would be interesting to see, in a MP enviroment, if there was an option at the ammocrates to take mags without tracers how many tracers acctually would be fired...After a little while I'd say 0 tracers exept for those poor bastards equiped with weapons using factory-made belts with tracers included...

Doesn't mean a thing, just the consecvense of war and survival.

I as well enjoy those nice tracers jumping into the sky, beautifull as hell but as I mentioned, not very realistic.

Maybe an option at the ammocrates or in a loadout could be a possibility?

/Abbe

Please read my post 1 page back, last post.

We can only build such features in full mods and not in this SIX_Tracers Addon without breaking Multiplayer or other type of compatiblity

[ThePredator 0]

Panda, you know there is the SLA, do you?

You always talk about US US US, the SLA is the other part of the game and I don't want them to be just the like the US side to throw their tax payers money at the enemy for no valid reason.

I was not talking about BIS to be narrow-minded, you are always talking about the US.

I don't care if they wear ACU or pink wonderbras, you can't compare current conflicts with the situation in ArmA.

Nowadays, no one can think of any large scale war with two equally equipped forces. So every unit uses tracers because there is no danger in such actions.

Imagine the Vietnam era conflicts, or Desert Storm, they did not use tracers as much as they do now. And in 'Nam the enemy was superior by strength, tactics and knowledge. Still, they were not stupid and only used tracers for the machineguns....

[sickboy 13]

Another thing; Nobody claimed that we can't have different tracer settings per side, you "NarrowMinded this, and Narrowminded That" pplz :P

[Strag 0]

... A mission maker can FULLY override each and every setting through a very cool SIX_TracersCfg class in the description.ext, see Demo2 and see the included SIX_TracersCfg.hpp mate... Example here: http://pastebin.ca/556504

Thanks, Sickboy -- this is great.  From both a mission maker and a server admin standpoint, I think this will allow us to customize our missions and servers as we wish with respect to tracers.

So, if you're looking for a "default" setting, I'd recommend no more than one tracer per every five rounds for rifles.  Anything more than that, and I think we'll have what look like a bunch of Star Wars battles on our hands.  

[Maddmatt 1]

@ June 12 2007,15:20)]...Besides: if this was true why would soldiers do that IRL?...

I just explained it, did you not read my post properly? Man, you are being too narrow minded. The situation in Iraq is not the same as what happens in ArmA. In ArmA we are not fighting untrained moronic insurgents for one.

IRL US soldiers are not fighting a trained army, and the environment is different.

[Strag 0]

@ Sniper Rifle Bugs; No worries, looking into those soon, problem is that they share ammo with normal rifles/mg's so i'll just configure them for exclusion

Excellent.  If possible, don't forget to exclude the SPR.

[Panda-PL- 0]

throw their tax payers money at the enemy for no valid reason

Tracers use phosphor, not plutonium or platin. You can go to chemical store and buy a few kilos of phosphor - it is quite cheap.

Quote[/b] ]Imagine the Vietnam era conflicts, or Desert Storm, they did not use tracers as much as they do now. And in 'Nam the enemy was superior by strength, tactics and knowledge. Still, they were not stupid and only used tracers for the machineguns....

- how do you know that? Care to share sources? BTW: tracer round from nam era burnt before 500 yards and was not at all well- designed. Not that 5.56 cartridges from nam era were well designed in general. And enemy in Vietnam war was VC and NVA.

Madmatt: last I checked opfor in ArmA is poorly trained and equipped. They don't even have an automatic rifleman, just medium machinegun.

[ThePredator 0]

Quote[/b] ]Anything more than that, and I think we'll have what look like a bunch of Star Wars battles on our hands.

That is already the case with small arms & tracers.

Playing ArmA with rifle tracers is nothing special. It's just way to much. Tracers should be something unusual, something you only see in some situations, like a machinegun burst coming your way.

If every soldier got tracers, whatever the mixture is, they loose all their beauty and effect.

You hardly see the tracers at day or night through the muzzle flash and firing without sights or in 3rd person is not what I want ArmA to be: Even more arcade.

A per-side difference in tracers is a bad idea. I am not talking about balancing here, it's really a per-user decision to have rifle tracer or not.

Forcing someone to use tracers without him editing the scripts/configs on his own is not an option.

Rifle tracers: No.

I'd rather use no tracers at all than tracers for all weapons.

The whole discussion is not about which armyd oes what, it's about the freedom of the user to choose if he'd like tracers or not.

Not having them is realistic, and the user has the choice of not using this mod to see the BIS tracers for nearly all guns.

Having forced tracers by default with this mod leads to either self-modding this project or not using it.

Everyone who likes this mod, likes realistic tracers, so they should accept a realistic setting for the given situation.

Update:

Tracer ammo is expensive in production, since they require special treatment and such. As a gun nut, competitive shooter and former employee of a firearms company, I know something about weapons, ammo and thelike.

In Vietnam, the NVA was better trained, tougher and not as arrogant as the US grunt. They had seen battle long before the teenagers from the west. They knew what they did, unlike the opfor and the results are now written in history books,

My knowledge from former battles is either 1st hand or written historic documents, combat footage and literature.

This discussion is really not about opinions on current armed forces, it should be about Armed Assault, and ArmA only.

In ArmA, the US forces are not a fighting force, they train the locals in "capitalist warfare" (cynism). They have M1A1, Viper gunships, A-10 and whatnot, but the russian influenced SLA troops got KA-50's, SU-34B's and at least T-72 MBT's.

Why should such an outnumbered force use tactics of supremacy? The common soldier is not there to fight, so why should they have top-notch pentagon-approved material in a less-than-conflict-environment?

Well, I should mention I did not even start the campaign, so my assumptions may be wrong, anyway, realistic tracers, realistic setting (for the game environment, not current conflict standards, that is!

[Panda-PL- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Forcing someone to use tracers without him editing the scripts/configs on his own is not an option.

You cannot possibly mean that editing values in config is too hard?

And then: forcing? Do we force anyone to use this addon?

Majority of people will use it and like regardless of how many tracers are in which magazine.

And if you don't like US soldiers you will use a mod anyway and the mod wiill have its own config.

So the matter is not as dramatic as you'd like it to view.

[sickboy 13]

Since you guys throw nothing but opinions which you try to sell as Realistic and as Authentic, and as Facts... I will be smart in this and set it up like this:

[*] Default No Tracers on Rifles

[*] Player Override Possibility for Single Player-only by simple configuration class as is available to MissionMakers

[*] Mission Maker Override Possibility, which overwrites player setting AND Addon Setting. In Single Player a player can even edit SP Missions if there was something set that the player doesnt like or some sorts. But it's especially important that settings are the same for ALL players when in MP.

What other Mods set for default settings is their own.

6thSenseMod for one will feature different types of many magazines to accommodate for Per 3, Per 5, Last 3, Last 5 and possibly ALL-tracer rounds which can be used in Missions where you simulate to mark targets for vehicles or other

But the default magazines in 6thSenseMod will feature per 5 tracers

[Panda-PL- 0]

Very well. I support the idea.

[Maddmatt 1]

...

I was hoping to have tracers for small arms like 1 in 5 or 1 in 3, but I'm happy with that