ineffectiveness of aircraft vs tanks

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

SOBR[1st-I-R] @ May 23 2007,23:44)]Although I agree with plaintiff on his points you should not forget that the T-72 has a .50cal gun which is intented for AA use.

And the range of a .50cal is over 1.5 km ... so if that T72 can hit you, you are in trouble.

Plaintiff didn't make any points..

Oh ups.. I meant Innocent and Clueless

sry mate

[oyman 0]

I just think you need to learn how to fly helicopters in combat better in ArmA .

I think its all fine, a tank wont just sit there and let a helicopter kill them. Don't you think they would be trying thier hardest to shoot you down :O.

[H00t74 0]

If you have Hellfires, Lock-um up at 3500 + at a hover and take them out..That is the way to do it...

[Snake Man 407]

I want to use AH1 Cobras against enemy vehicles in my missions, mostly PMC First Fight campaign and of course in the upcoming missions I do in the future. But unless BIS tweaks the engine/config/etc to balance the helicopter versus ground vehicles, its impossible for me to enjoy good mission with air support as they are shot down in few seconds like so many have stated in this topic.

Please BIS hear us, tweak something to balance the aircrafts. Thank you

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

let's rename it to "to high effectiveness of tanks vs aircrafts using MG".

I guess a tank can shot down a copter that has a not to high relative speed to the tank, there are even special rounds for main gun with similar explosion characteristics like AA missilles, hence direct hit is not necessary to bring it down. Modern tanks can even lock and track copters automatically and calc the cannon alignment.

My point is that the ability of the AI to follow the flight path is by far to good. In RL you can predigt a steady move without sudden changes, in ArmA AI follows each tiny change and brings every bullet into the target.

[Spectre867 0]

If you have Hellfires, Lock-um up at 3500 + at a hover and take them out..That is the way to do it...

have u actually tried what you're talking about?

i find it impossible to engage targets at any distance more than 1500 yds given the limits of the radar and game engine.

if anyone seriously thinks it is realistic that cobra attack helicopters in the game are being taken down by t-72s...well, id like to see of an example in real life of any attack helicopter ever getting shot down by a tank.

and whoever said i just need practice...im not just hovering there getting shot down, i got repeatedly shot down while swooping in at over 230 kmph. i dont know if it is just the US version that came patched already with the super tankers, but if you've played the mission i played with those settings you'll know what im talking about.

Quote[/b] ]Modern tanks can even lock and track copters automatically and calc the cannon alignment.

I've never heard of that and I'd like to see where you found that...but then again I'm just a dumb grunt. I just think its ridiculous that air support is null whenever you have a few tanks around. And utilizing close air support was one of my favorite things about OFP (its nice to hear the constant drum of helicopter blades hovering above, if you've ever experienced that you'll know what i mean...unless you are Iraqi ) but the current version ArmA has effectively crippled that ability.

[oyman 0]

in ArmA AI follows each tiny change and brings every bullet into the target.

Aren’t tank crews highly trained?

The only time I got shot down in a helicopter is when a T72 shot me in the face in the cockpit or when I flew into a tree .

[Spectre867 0]

in ArmA AI follows each tiny change and brings every bullet into the target.

Aren’t tank crews highly trained?

The only time I got shot down in a helicopter is when a T72 shot me in the face in the cockpit or when I flew into a tree .

Not highly trained enough to take down a speeding helicopter at over 500 yards away with a quick burst of .50 cal to the rotor blades from the co-ax.

I think we're probably playing different versions though because you'd know what I was talking about if you have experienced it in this game

[frederf 0]

I did a little research and it seems anti-helicopter gunnery is and has been taught since at least 1990 in the US. I did not find any specific mention of coaxial MG engagement, just main gun. Also I am fairly certain some MBTs have "anti air mode." An aging T72? maybe not.

Either way I think the main point discussed is not if it's possible to engage a flying target with the coaxial cannon, main gun, or commander's MG, but how effective should that be. A T-72 gunner able to track a fast moving AH-1 and put a bullet on the pilot's forehead inside of 10 seconds seems unreasonable, unfun, and darn right unreal.

I call into question the turret rotation and elevation speeds, target identification, and target acquisition speeds in ArmA. I know a modern MBT is no WWII Tiger when it comes to the turret speed but I think for 360 an Abrams is what 6 seconds? 9 seconds? What's it in game? 2-4 seconds?

The AI should perform about as well if not slightly less able than a human opponent. Would you fly a MH-6 still inside 1000m from a human-controlled tank? Food for thought.

Just a note. In ArmA you cannot achieve missile lock beyond 3000m. 3001m? No dice. Now a careful pilot with a lot of intel can stay at 2500m all day and be fine, even from the AI sniper-king. Perhaps a great deal of the problem is people flying with less than 5000m view distance, flying recklessly, or in the absence of intel and support.

[fasad 1]

In real life, would a MBT ever fire it's main cannon at a chopper?

In ArmA, I find this to be a much more effective method of air defence in than using the MG.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

The turn speed of turrets was already an issue in OFP, dunno if there is an accessible parameter for tuning in ArmA, if not, I`ll make a CR out of it.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/wednesday/schirding.pdf

Check page 15 or so for AA rounds.

http://www.afcea.org/signal....eid=151

...about missiles launched through main gun, did not even knew that this is possible for AA missiles, only about AT missiles I knew

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Mekava.htm

Quote[/b] ]The system is equipped with an improved tracking system which enables tracking of moving targets, such as tanks, helicopters, vehicles or soldiers.

.... but almost all modern tanks having this capability, even automatic target acquisition so that you just have to select out of the proposed targets is possible in some MBTs.

But I do not see all that in a T72.

[4 IN 1 0]

you got to learn a alot of things b4 you post simple ballocks on this forum, and i always wonder: who need manmoth tank when morden day tank can do the job of 2 cannon with only 1?

ok jokes over, i simply think that the chopper is a slightly underpowered when against tank, would be nice to have atless the damage model of a tank

what parts should be modeled if they finally agree putting something like this on a chopper/plane?

i could think of only a few:

nose machine gun pod/ guns itself

left and right weapon loadout

cockpit with control agility/ front frame

mainframe/ center body

fuel tank

engine (left, right, center if there is only 1 or have 3)

main rotor

tail frame

tail rotor

landing gear/fork

any more?

edit: oh yeah, what i think is that they should make a new tank damage model, while leave the current model for chopper to use, these little buggers are a bit more simple in terms of shoot down i think

[Universel 0]

So many posts about t72 overpowered.

But what about the BMP2 ? His 30mm canon should make a hole in everything that flies when hit, but in game it is so weak... my A10 received a dozen of hits and nothing.

On the other hand, the AA Stinger and Strelas are clearly the most overpowered weapons. Impossible to evade since the beggining, and now in 1.07 UH60/Mi17 instantly explodes when hit.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

1) Learn to fly and to play. 2) hellfires hit up to 5km - tested. 3) rambo movies and flying at 50m alt will get you killed.

Mr. marine you ever saw the optics on the t72 turret? Obviously not, so go play berzerk or go to the editor and research. Velocity of sabot rounds? 1,4km/s to 1,8km/s. You=rambo? Obviously.

Learn to think, grunt.

[Second 0]

Scoring hits to chopper is rather easy with optical sights and tracers, if chopperpilot acts stupidly/or without good intel (not aware of the AAMG) like they usually did in our simulation hardware. Jets on other hand are simply too fast. Usually it's visible and after few seconds it's not visible.

[whisper 0]

In real life, would a MBT ever fire it's main cannon at a chopper?

In ArmA, I find this to be a much more effective method of air defence in than using the MG.

Yes, they do, and it's also very effective (this coming from a Leclerc tank crewchief I know), as choppers are really easily spotted by tank sensors.

The thing is that real choppers do NOT engage tanks like AI pilot or too many player pilot do in ArmA. They engage from distance and with as much cover as possible.

The tanks engaging air targets in ArmA may be a bit too powerfull (well, I still have to experiment a bit more, but I don't feel they are, at least when I fly. AI flying, OTOH, is awefull), but it's not unrealistic.

Now, engaging jets with MG, big nono. But it's a very easy matter of 1 parameter in config, I think (maxLeadSpeed), so it's easily correctable by BI for planes.

[4 IN 1 0]

in fact using tank main gun to shot down chopper is much more effective then a missile, as with a good aim, the cannon rounds are simply too fast for chopper pilot to react, but the first the tank gunner have to had visual contact on the chopper first

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

The point is, I repeat, the unreal tracking capability of AI.

Even "crazy Ivan" maneuvering does not help really, almost each bullet fired by AI hits the copter.

Taking down a slow flying or hovering copter is easy.

The T72 as we have should not have electronic tracking support.

Human brain needs up to a second to react on sudden changes in flight path and for up to 2 seconds the bullets stream should not hit the copter. I guess a random "delay" 0-1s that the AI should need to align the fire to a new predicted flight path would help.

[Jester_UK 0]

..... almost each bullet fired by AI hits the copter.

This comment (and a few others on the subject of AI accuracy in general), makes me wonder if bullet dispersion is modelled in ArmA. Does anyone know whether it is or not?

[dreday 1]

if anyone seriously thinks it is realistic that cobra attack helicopters in the game are being taken down by t-72s...well, id like to see of an example in real life of any attack helicopter ever getting shot down by a tank.

There are plenty of examples of the attack helicopters being shot down by HMGs and even MMGs (i.e. Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya). So it should follow that these same weapon systems would be just as capable of shooting down helicopters when mounted on armored vehicles.

Another thing to keep in mind is that most of the AAA fire is intended to force the aircraft to disengage and to abandon their attack, rather than actually shoot them down. Unfortunately this can not be done in Arma due to the lack of a robust morale system.

Still, I do agree with your point that these weapons are way too accurate in Arma, while the AI of helicopter pilots/gunners is ridiculously bad.

Peace,

DreDay

[dreday 1]

..... almost each bullet fired by AI hits the copter.

This comment (and a few others on the subject of AI accuracy in general), makes me wonder if bullet dispersion is modelled in ArmA. Does anyone know whether it is or not?

Of course it is, it's just that that the AA HMGs and CMGs have a very low dispersion. In real life these weapons have much higher dispersion presisely because their main purpose is to supress rather than kill.

Peace,

DreDay

[whisper 0]

The point is, I repeat, the unreal tracking capability of AI.

Even "crazy Ivan" maneuvering does not help really, almost each bullet fired by AI hits the copter.

Taking down a slow flying or hovering copter is easy.

The T72 as we have should not have electronic tracking support.

Human brain needs up to a second to react on sudden changes in flight path and for up to 2 seconds the bullets stream should not hit the copter. I guess a random "delay" 0-1s that the AI should need to align the fire to a new predicted flight path would help.

Strange that I don't get at all the same sniper behavior. I've been able to evade simultaneous fire from 3 or 4 tanks at the same time, provided I keep a certain distance, which is perfectly valid and corresponding roughly to what is asked to RL pilots.

[Jezz 0]

this may elighten a bit

http://63.99.108.76/forums....copters

[NoRailgunner 0]

Little Bug - superior ArmA-AI in vehicles shooting down Pilots.

Make a mission yourself as civilian and watch:

T-72, Shilka, UAZ MG and the other side with aircraft or vice versa.

Damn good AA-gunners!! Poor Pilots not shooting down the nearest/main threat (e.g.Shilka) on their own

motto Air Force: Do something amazing!

[max power 21]

1) Learn to fly and to play. 2) hellfires hit up to 5km - tested. 3) rambo movies and flying at 50m alt will get you killed.

Mr. marine you ever saw the optics on the t72 turret? Obviously not, so go play berzerk or go to the editor and research. Velocity of sabot rounds? 1,4km/s to 1,8km/s. You=rambo? Obviously.

Learn to think, grunt.

+1

But I think he was initially complaining that ai cobras get pwned by t72s. If a human pilot gets shot down by t72s, that's something entirely different, and a little bit . AI T72's can't really deliver effective reactive fire past 1 km with their AA machineguns. Hide, pop up, and blast them with a missile. It's what they are for.