Children?

[dreday 1]

3. Where do you draw the line? People are more than happy to kill "adult" men all day long, but as soon as women or children are added to the mix its a travesty and shouldn't be possible. So basically, all you people who are against children (or women) in game on the basis that killing them is morally "wrong", value an adult male's life LESS than a child or a womans? Bit of a double standard there if you ask me...

DeadMeat,

Most (if not all) societies consider the murder of children to be more horrific and morally reprehensable than the murder of the adults. You don't have to agree with it, but I don't see why you are so surprised by it.

Peace,

DreDay

[canis lupus 20]

thanks... that might be a mod idea...

[dm 9]

3. Where do you draw the line? People are more than happy to kill "adult" men all day long, but as soon as women or children are added to the mix its a travesty and shouldn't be possible. So basically, all you people who are against children (or women) in game on the basis that killing them is morally "wrong", value an adult male's life LESS than a child or a womans? Bit of a double standard there if you ask me...

DeadMeat,

Most (if not all) societies consider the murder of children to be more horrific and morally reprehensable than the murder of the adults. You don't have to agree with it, but I don't see why you are so surprised by it.

Peace,

DreDay

Yeah, I know that.

I was trying to make the point that the very same people who go off on one about it being morally reprehensible are more than happy to kill 100's if not 1000's of adult males in the same day without even thinking twice about it.

Look at it this way; if the thought of killing women or children disgusts you that much, then you should probably re-think what games you play. Since killing adult males is no different, you're still ending a life. (All be it a digital one in this case)

[Soviet Spetsnaz 0]

No child models. End of discussion.

[dreday 1]

I was trying to make the point that the very same people who go off on one about it being morally reprehensible are more than happy to kill 100's if not 1000's of adult males in the same day without even thinking twice about it.

Look at it this way; if the thought of killing women or children disgusts you that much, then you should probably re-think what games you play. Since killing adult males is no different, you're still ending a life. (All be it a digital one in this case)

As I have said in my erlier post, there is a world of difference between killing an armed enemy (who is out there to kill you and your friends) and the murder of unarmed and inocent children.

It's not about what disgusts me. I would definitely not lose any sleep if BIS was to add children to the game. However I would also consider it a bad descision for both ethical and business reasons.

I don't play alot of games, but I have been playing OFP since June 22, 2001; so I think I will stick with it - thank you very much;)

I can only speak for myself, but I play this game as a military simulator and children simply don't belong at war.

Peace,

DreDay

[Fekin-Detri 0]

No child models. End of discussion.

Ha, everyone is really going to take heed of that comment.

Now it would of worked if it was posted by a moderator then the thread closed, but yours dosen't quite have the same effect.

[Guest]

Children would be awesome!

It would definitely help for immersion

Children with AKs were fighting in Falluja, why not in ARMA?

I heard once from nephlim that you could do something in o2 and would scale all animations to the selections.... not sure if thats even possible.... hopefully she stops by and checks.

[crashdome 3]

I think limiting the addon production of child models in game because of *potential* abuse and *potential* media fallout is not only advocating censorship, it provides a context that children and women never feel the effects of war or contribute to any aspect of it. You are only fooling yourselves.

I come from a time when cigarette and liquer ads were on toys (replicating a racecar sponsor for example) and blowing stuff up meant really blowing stuff up (firecrackers and GI Joes anyone?). Since that time there has been considerable effort in reducing the exposure of certain things from not only children but also adults. There is no sufficient proof that it causes any benefits (or vice-versa) to somehow "shield" reality from people.

IMO, children are not really needed, but I can foresee it providing a better context of what war is. You say blowing up children in a game is somehow wrong for society? I say preventing people from experiencing what the true affects of war are and indirectly glorifying it by saying women and children never get hurt is FAR MORE devastating to a society than the former. If you cannot stomach seeing a child blown up in a game because you have childeren of your own, I simply say that you cannot handle reality and should perhaps look to whatever measure of fulfillment (religion, science, whatever) to help you deal with it.

I can deal with it, so don't "dumb down" anything on my behalf, please. If I walk away crying from a "simulator" because I hurt civilians and it truly affected me, I would only hope it has benefitted myself in that I can better deal with why I oppose war as an answer to foriegn problems. I would also hope it is a good testament to the realism of the simulator and the fact it helps to see it on a digital screen rather than in real life. You might as well ban books and documentaries discussing the same things.

I realize some people dont want this. They want a game. Fine, but why censor it from the rest of us? It (would be) an addon... don't download it or use a replacement addon that turns the children into men. It's not that hard to do.

I will reiterate my point... censorship only causes problems. It doesn't solve them. We have freedom of choice. You can choose not to see that as easily as you can turn the blood effects on/off.

[dreday 1]

CrashDome,

I understand your point. And let me be the first one to say that I am not advocating cesorship. I would hate for any government to tell BIS what they can and can not put in their games. What I am advocating is some class and good taste. I trully belive that the inclusion of children in an FPS game is shows very little of either.

I aslo see what you mean about educating people about the horrors of war. That's the reason why no one is up in arms about seeing children die in dramatic movies or news casts. However, I don't belive that Arma is a good vehicle for it. If BIS was to hire a crew of top notch writers and voice actors and focus their product on truly educating people about the horrors of war, then I could certainly see a case for children being included. However that's not a direction that they are taking (nor should they), therfore I see no need for the kids to be included.

Peace,

DreDay

[dreday 1]

Double post. Please delete.

[dm 9]

You say blowing up children in a game is somehow wrong for society? I say preventing people from experiencing what the true affects of war are and indirectly glorifying it by saying women and children never get hurt is FAR MORE devastating to a society than the former. If you cannot stomach seeing a child blown up in a game because you have childeren of your own, I simply say that you cannot handle reality and should perhaps look to whatever measure of fulfillment (religion, science, whatever) to help you deal with it.

Yeah, I agree totally. It supports my point too. I just dont see why its "OK" to kill adult men, but its not "OK" to kill anyone else. It just doesnt make sense...

[andersson 285]

As I have said in my erlier post, there is a world of difference between killing an armed enemy (who is out there to kill you and your friends) and the murder of unarmed and inocent children.

Just for the discussion:

As djfrogstar mentioned;

Quote[/b] ]Children with AKs were fighting in Falluja, why not in ARMA?

Not all children are unarmed and innocent, some are considered armed enemies.

I personally do not mind children in arma, as civilians or child-soldiers, but I do understand why people dont want it and why it can become bad publicity.

A very interesting and hot topic.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

The issue here though is actually not as much as about having children in ArmA or not, it is rather about who should make such an addon, as the initial request was made to BIS, which I think most of us agree is a bad idea - if any child addon is to be provided to ArmA, let it come from the community, not the game itself.

[Silvio Camolesi 0]

ArmA is supposed to be a combat simulator where the height and age of civilians don't matter.

That is not a Simcity or 2ndLife.

But would be funny, with children, dogs, many cars, bus, a completly and live city to be entire killed by crazy kids in their PCs late at home

[dreday 1]

Yeah, I agree totally. It supports my point too. I just dont see why its "OK" to kill adult men, but its not "OK" to kill anyone else. It just doesnt make sense...

We are going off on a philosphical tangent over here.  You simply can't apply logorithmic logic to morals and ethics and expect it all to make sense in the end.  A lot of it has to do with the individual's upbringing and personal beliefs.  

To me though, asking why is it ok to fight adults, but not kids (even if armed); makes about as much sense as asking why is the adult pornography ok, but child pornography is not...  

Peace,

DreDay

[mattxr 9]

I was trying to make the point that the very same people who go off on one about it being morally reprehensible are more than happy to kill 100's if not 1000's of adult males in the same day without even thinking twice about it.

Look at it this way; if the thought of killing women or children disgusts you that much, then you should probably re-think what games you play. Since killing adult males is no different, you're still ending a life. (All be it a digital one in this case)

As I have said in my erlier post, there is a world of difference between killing an armed enemy (who is out there to kill you and your friends) and the murder of unarmed and inocent children.

It's not about what disgusts me.  I would definitely not lose any sleep if BIS was to add children to the game.  However I would also consider it a bad descision for both ethical and business reasons.

I don't play alot of games, but I have been playing OFP since June 22, 2001; so I think I will stick with it - thank you very much;)

I can only speak for myself, but I play this game as a military simulator and children simply don't belong at war.

Peace,

DreDay

Exactly Then we will Arm the Child this making him an Armed Enemy as in the real world.

[pwablo 0]

Moral and controversial aspects aside, I would be more concerned about the tactical advantage a reduced size model would give to players. Where would the realism end? Would 4-10year olds be able to even lift a M136? Drive a M1? I think overall the addition of children to Arma would cause more detraction from realism than add, unless it was done very tastefully that is.

Cheers

[mattxr 9]

Moral and controversial aspects aside, I would be more concerned about the tactical advantage a reduced size model would give to players. Where would the realism end? Would 4-10year olds be able to even lift a M136? Drive a M1? I think overall the addition of children to Arma would cause more detraction from realism than add, unless it was done very tastefully that is.

Cheers

Well in africa you see children holding RPGs

[NoRailgunner 0]

what a mess... such threads are growing because the sun is gettin hot, nothing else todo or exhausted from waiting of the "International Patch Update" ?? Or i'm too tired

BIS should fix the bugs first, make some performance improvements, and release tools asap.

[crashdome 3]

@DreDay

I am not advocating perverted use of children in Arma, nor am I suggesting BIS should include them. I understand your thoughts and your fears. What I am saying, however, is that your opinions do not necessarily apply to me and my beliefs so you have no right to suggestively ban the inclusion of children in this game. The first person to misuse that right I will be right along side of you voicing my opinion. Until that time, I can think of many tasteful (IMO) uses of children and even the possibility of using the engine in a peaceful simulation.

You forget this engine is also used to train first response agencies (VBS1). As a result, your FOV is extremely narrow and your opinions effectively exclude these perfectly legitimate possibilities. Instead of thinking of all the negatives, think of some of the positives.

[chipper 0]

Great thread Blackdog I think this is an important subject that seriously needs debating.

[4 IN 1 0]

i think, what should be done, is to creat a proper moral system that would affect AI NPCs reaction on different things first, yes, children can learn to kill, and sometime even more deadly then the adults who force an teach them how to

unless there is something act as an safty net, adding child into the game would be very dangerous

[chipper 0]

Who would stop me from lining up a bunch of virtual kiddies in the editor and pwning them?

That's the real question.

[4 IN 1 0]

that, would be a question you have to ask yourself

[blackdog~ 0]

I personally think it would be great if I could go on a rampage like this:

http://www.surfacezero.com/span/runningovercivs.wmv

But with the civilians and soldiers replaced with children.