Body Armor In ArmA

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Problem with you people is that you claim too much. And when it's time to prove that it will go agaist a burst of 7.62x39 you take it to the promotianal videos on your local dubaya tv.

[dreday 1]

In theorie Body armor looks good, in reality it leads to polytraumatic injuries, just preventing you from beeing chalked up as KIA.

Polytrauma Rehabilitation Program.

Not dragon skin, That frickin crap is scary.

I forget what I was watching, but they straped a dragon skin vest onto a dummy, shot a few bullets into it, none of them pierced through.

Then for good measure they laid the dummy with the vest ontop of a grenade and blew it up. STILL it didnt pierce through.

Yeah, but did they show how much impact it had on the clay dummy itself? A lot of damage can be done to the subject wearing the vest without actually penetrating the vest.

Peace,

DreDay

[guyguy1 0]

DreDay

44 mm is the NIJ limit

there was a recent test  comparing Interceptor with Dragon Skin that was commissioned by NBC broadcasting over worries that the Army wasn't giving the troops the best armor.

Dragon skin trauma never exceeded 30mm (in some cases, it was under 20 mm), while interceptor exceeded 40 mm a couple times and never was under 30 mm.

35mm will give you a big bruise, but you'll still be ok

@ Balschoiw

I understand it is pricey, but the U.S. army claims their armor is the best in the world. It just isn't (well, maybe it is for the price, who knows, but it aint better than Dragon Skin, period). Either theyre being intentionally misleading, or they're outright lying. Hey, if a dragon skin vest costs 5000 apiece, get a contract for 200,000 of these babies, and you could probably cut the individual unit cost to ~4000 apiece. T'would cost less than a billion, and since we're spending tens of billions per F-22 aircraft, I think we can afford life-saving equipment for cheaper. 42% of marines deaths caused by torso wounds in 2004 could have been prevented had they wore armor that covered more of the torso. DS covers almost the entire torso with rifle-stopping materials, is flexible, and defeats round after round with low-trauma.

please refer to the link I provided in one of my earlier posts in this thread. that's all the info you'll ever need.

is ther any way we can convince BIS to add body armor to ArmA? The guys are wearing Interceptor body armor (both the SLA and the US...which is strange), yet they're dying from 1 hit by a level III rifle round in the plate areas when they're wearing level IV plates. It's standard issue nowadays to have level IV plates with the interceptor, yet it seems to me that the vest they're wearing in ArmA is stuffed with cotton.

edit: ah what the heck, here's the link again

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99682

watch all them videos and read all the facts provided in the first post.

[USSRsniper 0]

All are talking about how good is dragon skin... But how goo is it against armor piercing .50 cal or 7.62 ??

Its all BS, about armor being good, if dragon skin is so good why soldiers still take cover?   By comments here it seems its super armor, you can charge toward enemy and never die   And body armor will not make sifference, AI in ArmA 99% will hit you in the head...

[wamingo 1]

Quote[/b] ]if dragon skin is so good why soldiers still take cover

Well you don't want to catch a bullet to your head and arms and legs are generally not overly protected either.

My fear revolving body armor in game is that the game may end up being a headshot sniper game. One of the reasons why stalker becomes rather trivial towards the later half of the game where everything dies 1 shot to the head but takes 10-20 bullets to anywhere else before dying. I don't want to see body armor stopping everything except a higherpowered sniper rifle making every online player chose a sniperrifle.

I do think maybe a somewhat higher bullet resistance to torso and such could enhance gameplay (by making players spray more), but I'm not sure if no bullet penetrates past ~x few hundred meters that would enhance gameplay.

discuss.

[guyguy1 0]

USSR sniper, level IV armor is classified by the NIJ (the standard for ballistics in the U.S.) as being able to stop a 7.62X63mm at 2800 feet per second. Your standard AK-47 7.62x39mm is only level III bullet. the SVD dragunov round is a level IV 7.62x54R at 2850 feet per second.

In simpler terms, you can charge at the enemy with a Dragon Skin and survive as long as they're shooting you in the chest/sides/back with a level IV round (level IV rounds are almost impossible to encounter in Iraq unless its an SVD. standard iraqi insurgent weapon is AK-47, which is a level III round). You can also charge with a standard issue Interceptor Body Armor, but you'll have to wish for luck for the bullets to strike the plates and not the kevlar portion of the vest.

The advantage with Dragon Skin is being able to take more hits, less trauma to the body (this is crucial), and flexibility. It's the world's first flexible rifle-defeating armor system that meets level IV requirements. Don't believe me?

9 US generals in afghanistan wear it, as well as a few in iraq.

US generals' bodyguards wear it

U.S. Secret Service personnel wear it

Elite US special forces and foreign special forces wear it

US department of Energy officials wear it

i'm not going to describe the stink up we have here in the US between the army and the manufacturer of Dragon Skin because this thread is about ArmA. I will tell you guys, however, that Dragon Skin is better than Interceptor and the Army is lying about their Interceptor body armor being the "best in the world". The designer of Interceptor even admits that his armor is outdated and inferior to Dragon Skin.

The plates used by the Interceptor Vest can defeat at least ONE level IV round. So, answering your question, Interceptor (the armor in ArmA that US soldiers wear) CAN defeat 7.62 rounds if hit in the plate. As for Dragon Skin, yes it can, and it can stop level IV bullets much better than interceptor. Please read the info from the link I provided.

No body armor stops .50 caliber. I'm assuming you were smart enough to know that and was just joking.

edit:

I'm going on vacation. restating the same facts over and over is getting extremely annoying. you can believe what you want about body armor; you may very well be wrong if you don't agree with me. I apologize if I sound like an asshole, but I am really passionate about this body armor issue because I am aware of the treason our military (U.S.) is committing to its soldiers by not providing the best body armor so that they can save some money and contracts. All of my friends are also aware of this and we have written to our congressman and now, they have publicly launched an investigation into Dragon Skin and the military's handling of it. NBC news did a report about Dragon Skin, and fouind it to be superior to interceptor. touchdown.

WATCH THESE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMEIORtJ-DE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTrTrsJu3pk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKDWv...elated&search=

[dreday 1]

DreDay

44 mm is the NIJ limit

there was a recent test comparing Interceptor with Dragon Skin that was commissioned by NBC broadcasting over worries that the Army wasn't giving the troops the best armor.

Dragon skin trauma never exceeded 30mm (in some cases, it was under 20 mm), while interceptor exceeded 40 mm a couple times and never was under 30 mm.

35mm will give you a big bruise, but you'll still be ok

guyguy1,

Thanks for your information. It is very interesting indeed. Is there any chart detailing the relationship between the dents in ballistic clay and the RL injuries? I was under impression that Iraq experience has shown that the 30mm+ mark might be too high, as there were a lot of injuries to the bones and body organs.... From what I've read, Russians are using the 10mm limit...

Peace,

DreDay

[USSRsniper 0]

So it means if enemy has AP rounds, you are screwed......

[churnedfortaste 0]

So we're all clear that there is body armour available (and in service) that can stop 7.62x39 and 7.62x54?

The reason that the armour (if there's supposed to be) in ArmA doesn't work realistically, is because the damage that a soldier can withstand is based on hitpoints, that's why you can kill them instantly if you fire 5 rounds rapidly into their feet...

A bit off topic but, I'd love to see some realistic features like getting knocked over from a bullet hitting body armour, maybe in an ArmA mod or GAME 2...

[guyguy1 0]

USSRsniper,

if enemy has AP rounds, it is ok as long as it level IV . Dragon Skin now comes in level V, which doesn't have a NIJ classification yet because Dragon Skin is the only armor that can defeat level V rounds. Basically, the US government told Pinnacle Armor (maker of Dragon Skin) to keep the level V bullet speeds secret. I do not know the nature of these rounds except that they are super-armor piercing.

here is a vid showing these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnfHhRl7U0

For your info,

As yoiu know, Dragon Skin uses small discs that overlap to create a type of scale mail (like fish scales that overlap). In the video, you can see the scales sticking out of the front in a square pouch. That is not the only option. They made the scale coverage 10x12 inches just for testing purposes because making the entire vest level V bulletproof would be a waste of money. Testing protocols in US require rounds to be fired into a 10x12 area, so 10x12 pouch shown would be perfect. A soldier could easily purchase a dragon skin level V vest that covers the ENTIRE chest/back/sides with these scales. However, it's more realistic to buy a level III dragon skin because everyone in iraq uses AK's. level V would be for a war against like...Europe..or maybe USSRsniper hehe. Problem is our damn beaurocratic military and government purchases inferior body armor for our troops and makes them die and bleed in it, and then doesn't let them buy Dragon Skin to preserve their sweetheart moneysaving contracts. The army also sabotaged Dragon Skin testing when they subjected it to unusual conditions and incompetent testing staff (led by, you guessed it, the FOLKS WHO WORK FOR THE MANUFACTURER of Interceptor Body armor).

Note: the narrater says the rounds were travelling just under a mile per second. Now, we know that the rifle they were shooting was the m14 7.62 rifle. 1 mile per second is 5280 feet per second.

I do not think level V armor should be in ArmA. Would be too hard to accurately simulate because the government won't let the bullet speeds of level V bullets to be shown to public, AND the standard soldier/marine in US army can't wear dragon skin cuz those damn beaurocrats and corrupt generals wont let them. So, stick with Interceptor. If BI needs help, I can give it to them. I am an experienced ballistics expert/body armor tester for a decade.

Now, for comparison

level IV rounds are about 2850 feet per second on AVERAGE, none faster than 3200 feet per second. remember, level IV rounds are the AP sniper rifle like the SVD. Just under 1 mile per second is about high 4000's to low 5000's feet per second. that is a CRAZY jump from level IV to V.

edit:

from my experience as a ballistics expert, Russian standards were no greater than 27mm of trauma. they might have changed it now, but under 10mm is extremely unlikely unless they want their troops tugging on 50 pounds vests.

[Zorbtek 0]

Body armor has saved lives before, and it continued to do just that, that's the only purpose of body armor.  I think sending a soldier into the battefield without body armor is like sending a knight into the battlefield without chain mail.

Remember that video of the soldier standing on patrol?  He gets shot, falls down, get's back up and takes cover.  Did his flesh stop that bullet?  Come on now.

[Money 0]

ArmA could defiantly use armor for the sake of realism. Why hell is Dragon Skin bought up so often? It's not US/Russian military issue so it should be the least spoken about.

[frederf 0]

ArmA could defiantly use armor for the sake of realism. Why hell is Dragon Skin bought up so often? It's not US/Russian military issue so it should be the least spoken about.

Because these folks like controversy and to blab on about the latest trend in this or that. Being anti-American industrial military complex is pretty fashionable too (even if they can be rather thick-headed).

What's military issue or not, effective or not, cool or not, American or not shouldn't make a bleedin' difference. The Interceptor is clearly what's in the game visually so that's what should be modeled performance-wise.

All this what's-better talk is useless. It'd be like the M1A1 in the game missing the coaxial MG.

"The M1A1 should have a M240 coaxial machine gun."

"The M240 is rubbish and the US Gov't is covering up this new weapon that could replace it. But in the MG-XYZ!"

"Um, but that's what an M1A1 has which has nothing to do with what it should have."

[ShrubMiK 0]

Agreed, if it is a sim it should simulate what the actual troops of the period simulated are equipped with. The fact that they could potentially be equipped with something better is beside the point.

Note also that US forces on a quiet posting to somewhere like, say, Sahrani might not necessarily have the same level of equipment as those sent to a known danger zone.

Does it even say what year the game is supposed to be set in? I didn't notice, but I might have missed it.

(Agreed, it would still be nice to have the option of better equipment available for use in custom missions).

I get the feeling that a certain poster here might actually work for the Dragonskin manufacturers ;o)

All this talk of how many clay dummies these things can save makes me wonder why, if they are so guaranteed to stop X number of bullets from calibre Y gun at Z metres range, why oh why can't they show us some videos of human testers really demonstrating their confidence in the product? ;o)

[dreday 1]

All this talk of how many clay dummies these things can save makes me wonder why, if they are so guaranteed to stop X number of bullets from calibre Y gun at Z metres range, why oh why can't they show us some videos of human testers really demonstrating their confidence in the product? ;o)

I can answer that question with one word - liability.  BTW, I agree with your other points.

Peace,

DreDay

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]Note also that US forces on a quiet posting to somewhere like, say, Sahrani might not necessarily have the same level of equipment as those sent to a known danger zone.

It's certainly possible that the troops in ArmA that have the Interceptor don't have the ceramic plates installed either voluntarily or because they didn't have the supply.

[1436 1]

/bump for more votes

[Peabrain 0]

All the body armor debate aside (and regardless of whats "realistic" or not) can anyone please tell me if its even possible to edit any current body armor setting or simulate the use of body armor in ArmA by simple changing of a config file or anything like that?

Sorry for the perhaps stupid question, but I'm not familiar with scripting and my forum search only found this thread.

Thanks

P

[snakefang 0]

Im sure it is, but not really sure where to look. But he is right, right now if guys in ArmA are wearing body armor, then it must be made from animal hide or something because it stops spit wads and thats about it. Heck it doesnt even stop SHRAPNEL! Even from, say, 10m away from a grenade impact.

It really is sad, reducing the "ninja" AI with their awsome sniping abilities would be a great start, but body armor is a much needed item.

And BTW at about 500m, a 5.56, or even a 5.45 wouldnt be able to get threw any decient body armor, or at least, not normal rounds, maybe AP, but i dont think their loaded with AP rounds.

[frederf 0]

All the body armor debate aside (and regardless of whats "realistic" or not) can anyone please tell me if its even possible to edit any current body armor setting or simulate the use of body armor in ArmA by simple changing of a config file or anything like that?

Sorry for the perhaps stupid question, but I'm not familiar with scripting and my forum search only found this thread.

Thanks

P

I'm currently looking at the config and trying to figure out how to get body armor working. The following is a snippet from characters.pbo and belongs to the CAManBase class. CAManBase is a child of Man class and a parent of SoldierWB (soldier west basic).

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE"> class HitHead {

armor = 0.700000;

material = -1;

name = "head_hit";

passThrough = 1;

};

class HitBody {

armor = 0.800000;

material = -1;

name = "body";

passThrough = 1;

};

class HitHands {

armor = 0.500000;

material = -1;

name = "hands";

passThrough = 1;

};

class HitLegs {

armor = 0.500000;

material = -1;

name = "legs";

passThrough = 1;

};

[maddogx 13]

It is possible to simulate body armor and frederf is on the right track. I played around with those config sections back in OFP, although I think they were slightly different, and it worked very well.

I'm pretty sure there will be a mod out soon that will add body armor, most likely ACE will do it.