Body Armor In ArmA

[quiet_man 8]

But it still doesn't add up, not without more questions being asked.

Are you saying the sniper rifle was also fired from the same place the filming was done from? To me it look like the impact came from somewhere to the right, given that the target staggered slightly back to the left (from the camera point of view).

if you watch the video closely, you can see the smoke from the gun just in front of the camera

also I think you missed the most important part:

Quote[/b] ]The round struck me at an angle and did not come through the SAPI plate.

a split second befor hit, the soldier turns rapily to the left and The bullet hit the chest armor in a flat angle from right, pushing him backwards (to the side from shooter/camera view) That saved his life.

I don't remember the exact values, but the penetration power heavily drops when the bullet hits from angle

90degrees is a straight hit with 100% penetration

60degrees reduces penetration to ~80%

if you lower the angle the penetration starts dropping fast around 45degrees (depending on bullet and armor type) until the bullet is deflected

QuietMan

[Beagle 684]

There we have it again, the old propaganda problem. Since back to the 90's I found it always suspicious how high the US armed forces suddently praised their equipment, and how carefully other NATO forces with the same or similar equipment estimated the protection, or weapon effects provided. It is all the same whether one looks after counter measures for aircraft, or the effectiveness of armor on vehicles. It is amazingly as far the differences in the classification of the effectiveness of Russian weapon system deviates, with that which Europeans have from own experiences, because since the reunification of Germany very much material was available for test rows, as more modern systems of russian production became available with the NATO extension to the East. Unfortunately the success of this propaganda pulls itself up to exaggerated demands to changes to, admitted simplified, system of ArmA ganmeplay.

[ShrubMiK 0]

Yep, you're right, I did miss one or two of the nuances of what was said to have happened.

It all looks fairly sensible to me now. There's plenty of reference to this event on the net so it clearly happened more or less as was stated.

The famed "juba" clearly isn't the single sniper god being claimed by propaganda ;o)

The protection clearly worked in this case...but the circumstances devalue the grandiose protection claims being made by some people here. If that same situation was played out 100 times, how many times would the target avoid serious injury? Probably not very many, I think he got lucky in this case.

Two questions:

1) Do the manufacturers of the body armour make specific claims about at what range it can offer, say, a 90% likelihood of preventing penetration of a particular type of bullet from a particular type of gun if it impacts full-on? Is this data published anywhere?

2) The US military have obviously conducted evaluations of different forms of body armour, and from what little information I've seen there was considerable disagreement about which type of armour proved more effective. Have the test results been published anywhere?

I'm guessing this sort of data probably counts as classified, though.

[whisper 0]

But it still doesn't add up, not without more questions being asked.

Are you saying the sniper rifle was also fired from the same place the filming was done from? To me it look like the impact came from somewhere to the right, given that the target staggered slightly back to the left (from the camera point of view).

if you watch the video closely, you can see the smoke from the gun just in front of the camera

also I think you missed the most important part:

Quote[/b] ]The round struck me at an angle and did not come through the SAPI plate.

a split second befor hit, the soldier turns rapily to the left and The bullet hit the chest armor in a flat angle from right, pushing him backwards (to the side from shooter/camera view) That saved his life.

I don't remember the exact values, but the penetration power heavily drops when the bullet hits from angle

90degrees is a straight hit with 100% penetration

60degrees reduces penetration to ~80%

if you lower the angle the penetration starts dropping fast around 45degrees (depending on bullet and armor type) until the bullet is deflected

QuietMan

Right on target.

I'm more than dubious that body armor are 100% proof at distance X for bullet of caliber Y.

It is veeeery dependant on situation, and notably angle of penetration.

AFAIK these elements are not taken into account by ArmA ballistics, which means a "body armor" implementation will simply mean "reinforced torso", which, as long as we don't have air friction rendered, is not really depicting what happens IRL.

OTOH it may enhance the whole fighting, like WGL did.

[Sniperdoc 0]

In theorie Body armor looks good, in reality it leads to polytraumatic injuries, just preventing you from beeing chalked up as KIA.

Polytrauma Rehabilitation Program.

Screw polytraumatic. It happens in every war and it happens to Firefighters and Police alike. It doesn't make it right but I tell you what... I'd rather walk away with a couple of broken ribs and some hellacious bruises, than having to come home without my kidneys or spleen or better yet, in a body bag.

PTSD - Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is something all Vets have to deal with. I'm amazed that they've now tagged on another clinical term to this... Polytraumatic injuries... whatever. I guess it just encompasses the whole spectrum of PTSD, the surgeries, rehab etc...

As if my Advancement Exams weren't hard enough as a Corpsman...!!!

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

In theorie Body armor looks good, in reality it leads to polytraumatic injuries, just preventing you from beeing chalked up as KIA.

Polytrauma Rehabilitation Program.

Screw polytraumatic. It happens in every war and it happens to Firefighters and Police alike. It doesn't make it right but I tell you what... I'd rather walk away with a couple of broken ribs and some hellacious bruises, than having to come home without my kidneys or spleen or better yet, in a body bag.

PTSD - Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is something all Vets have to deal with. I'm amazed that they've now tagged on another clinical term to this... Polytraumatic injuries... whatever. I guess it just encompasses the whole spectrum of PTSD, the surgeries, rehab etc...

As if my Advancement Exams weren't hard enough as a Corpsman...!!!  

Well, over time and with more wars the name for PTSD has changed and increased. Shellshock, Combat fatigue, PTSD, etc.

[Sniperdoc 0]

The camera jumps when the shot is made and there is a metalic ring like is was fired inside of an enclosed metal area. If you have ever been shooting at an outdoor range where they use those tin huts to protect you from the sun and such or an indoor pistol range with metalic walls you would recognize that sound right away.  Also if you have ever hunted inside a blind and forgot to stick the end of the muzzle outside the blind (which the sniper probably did since a rifle muzzle sticking out of a vehicle or whatever tends to draw attention) you would know why the camera jumped.

Fellow hog? 3/5 STA USMC - Corpsman

(Don't think it's necessarily a tin hut though... I did think they mentioned it was a van... )

[Milkman 1]

Given the claims being made for the effectiveness of body armour here, it's a wonder anybody ever gets killed by a bullet at all

Headshots, neckshots, arterial extremity shots, fatal physical shock from non-lethal rounds.

Thats how bullets kill someone in heavy-class armor.

Did I mention AP and incendiary?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Body armor is its not worn to keep you from getting wounded, its there to keep the bullet from passing through you to the buddy behind you. ©

Body armour against higher caliber is a myth, most wear it against smaller cal. (9mm+) and against shrapnel obviously.

The second you say 'dragon skin' and other propaganda shit on your favourite dubaya tv channel is real, is the moment you strap that sh.t on and take a burst of 7.62mm up your chest. This is not worth your life.

[guyguy1 0]

Seeing as nobody around here has been a ballistics expert...

NIJ ballistic standards are as follows

Level I- .22 caliber lead 1200fps

level II- 9mm 1400fps and all lesser threats

level IIIA- 9mm 1600 fps, .44 magnum 1400 fps and all lesser threats

level III- 7.62x39mm AK ball round, 2400 fps

level IV- 7.62x54R Armor Piercing Incindiary 2800 fps (dragunov round).

Current US army system is Interceptor Body Armor. Weighs 28 pounds without groin/shoudler pads anmd all 4 plates. Vest itself can stop 9mm but not .44 magnum so it cannot truly be called level IIIA. 4 plates, two in fonrt and two in the sides, level IV protection. YOU WILL NOT DIE IF YOU ARE HIT THERE WITH LEVEL IV ROUND IN THESE PLATES! These plates are tested to make sure that a certain amount of trauma is produced. Too much trauma, and the wearer will suffer crushed organs. If you're hit wearing these plates with a levle IV round or weaker, you will survive. It is not a myth to survive level IV rounds/armor piercing high caliber rounds if you are hit in the body armor. You will be bruised, but you will be able to fight. the E-SAPI level IV plates in the front, back, and sides that are fitted into the interceptor can take 2-3 hits before failing. The bigger plates (Front and back) can take 3-4 level IV shots with acceptable trauma, then usually on the 5th shot the trauma is unacceptable or the bullet goes through all the way.

Better Body Armor is Dragon Skin,

Flexible, Takes lots of punishment, level IV certified, covers 95% of your torso from rifle threats, and usually 40% less trauma. See link below for video testing and comparison against interceptor body armor.

please refer to this link

it is VERY insightful.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99682

edit: my view about body armor in Arma

Why not do it? ArmA damage models are unrealistic as of right now. You shot some guy in the plate from ~50m out with an m4 or AK, and they die. That is not realistic at all..

My experience:

I have worked as a ballistics researcher and tester. I have over 10 years of experience with ballistics. So, take me as a credible source

[frederf 0]

The BLUFOR units in ArmA wear what is supposed to be the Interceptor OTV with the ceramic inserts, yes?

Firing an AK-74 (do OPFOR use AK-74 or AK-47?) at a soldier with such a vest on from say 250m and it hits the ballistic plate squarely. How often is the soldier OK in real life? How often is the soldier OK in game?

I really cannot find solid numbers in research like "1000 soldiers in Iraq have been hit in the vest with 5.56mm and 769 of them survived in fighting shape, 102 were injured, and the remaining killed." Are 90% OK after being hit? Or is body armor (like that modeled in the game) only 10% effective. I have absolutely no feel for it.

It's nice to have a big ol' row about Dragonskin, balance, military spending and whatever else off-topic stuff we wanna bring up, but isn't the main point of the thread to examine if the stuff supposedly modeled in the game is performing as close to reality as possible?

[guyguy1 0]

yes, the NIJ standards are established by testing the armor from a range of 10 ft. Meaning, the bullets are fired from 10 ft of the armor, and the armor produces an acceptable trauma and stops the bullet. As an expert, I am dissapointed that BI did not implement more realistic damage system in ArmA. Oh well, still a really fun game! multiplayer rocks

[Balschoiw 0]

Do your homeworks.

Currently there is no "holy grail" of body armor. They are all compromises between weight, durability and useability.

Lookie, lookie

The Slow Race for Better Body Armor Protection

All the info you need.

You´ll see that interceptor body armor is no magic shield, neither is dragonskin.

Edit:

Couldn´t withhold to comment this:

Quote[/b] ]I have worked as a ballistics researcher and tester. I have over 10 years of experience with ballistics. So, take me as a credible source

Either you started your career at the age of 5 or your profile needs some "tuning" man...

[Heavy Metal 0]

Body armor is its not worn to keep you from getting wounded, its there to keep the bullet from passing through you to the buddy behind you. ©

Body armour against higher caliber is a myth, most wear it against smaller cal. (9mm+) and against shrapnel obviously.

The second you say 'dragon skin' and other propaganda shit on your favourite dubaya tv channel is real, is the moment you strap that sh.t on and take a burst of 7.62mm up your chest. This is not worth your life.  

It's real, you are confusing soft body armor which only stops pistol caliber rounds and shell fragments with hard body armor like the interceptor with boron-carbon ceramic trauma plates which can stop 7.62x54R AP and 7.62x51 NATO AP as well as US M-2 .30-06 AP rounds.

The armor is to protect you, not somebody who is likely not directly behind you BTW.

The dragon skin inserts are even better. Your armor-fu is stuck in 1989. The ability of SAPI plates to stop 7.62x39 was well established in 1993 during the 'Blackhawk Down' incident. The Rangers were some of the first to use the precursor to the Interceptor system.

[Milkman 1]

Once again, all this talk about magical shields.

I could shoot all day at a M1A1 Abrams with my .38 special and never put a dent in it. Does this mean the tank has a magical shield? No! A conventional 9x19mm, no matter how hard it tries, will never penetrate class IV armor. No one is claiming that body armor makes you invincible, why debate this magic shield crap when it is clear that certain calibers can easily overcome certain armor. Its all about the matching of projective and target.

On topic, I remember the BAS addons of yesteryear did have simulated body armor. I could take 3-5 shots in the front torso from a assault rifle before going down, why body armor was not implemented for a game with "Modern Combat" in the title is beyond me.

[guyguy1 0]

Do your homeworks.

Currently there is no "holy grail" of body armor. They are all compromises between weight, durability and useability.

Lookie, lookie

The Slow Race for Better Body Armor Protection

All the info you need.

You´ll see that interceptor body armor is no magic shield, neither is dragonskin.

Edit:

Couldn´t withhold to comment this:

Quote[/b] ]I have worked as a ballistics researcher and tester. I have over 10 years of experience with ballistics. So, take me as a credible source

Either you started your career at the age of 5 or your profile needs some "tuning" man...

Balschoiw, what the heck? Dragon Skin is the best body armor available today, it is state of the art. It stops the biggest baddest bullets short of .338 magnum/.50 caliber, and it is flexible and weighs roughly the same as an interceptor system of identical proportions. It takes dozens of hits from rifle rounds, and it is flexible. let me re-iterate. It is a FLEXIBLE rifle-defeating armor system.

I think you should do YOUR homework. I have talked to returning servicemen who have defied the army ban on Dragon Skin, and theytell me that it weighs rougfhly the same (about 2 pounds over interceptor fully plated), yet is flexible and provides more area protection vs threats commonly faced in iraq. 42% of marines who died from isolated torso injuries died cuz they were wearing inferior equipment. Even a Dragon Skin SOV-2000 level III vest would have saved them. The people I have talked to wear the SOV-2000, cuz the Iraqi insurgents don't use heavy armor piercing incindiary rifles which would require a level IV Dragon Skin SOV-3000. If you want verification, I will gladly provide you their contact info and they will teach you why Dragon Skin is the silver bullet in terms of providing protection from small-arms in current combat situations faced by our troops today. However, before I provide you the info, you should go to youtube and view the Dragon Skin testing videos. their level III armor is that effective at stopping level III rounds (AK-47 standard issue bad guy weapon), and t heir level IV armor is just as effective at stopping level IV rounds.

Arma Damage models are flawed, 9 mm and level III rifle round sshould not be penetrating soldiers plates and coming out the other side of the soldiers body (through yet another plate....)

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]why body armor was not implemented for a game with "Modern Combat" in the title is beyond me.

Can you imagine a CTF with US units and northern sahrani units ?

Can you imagine why having one side with a huge advantage is maybe a bad idea for a game that has competative elements ?

Apart from that, if they raised the armor level, they would have to implement all "side effects" mean they have to add several types of injuries for units who get hit and do not instantly die, they have to add a speed punishment for the higher weight factor, they have to reduce endurance because of the weight factor and the heat factor and they have to invent "bleed to death" for hits in external limbs and have to add random shock and trauma effects.

It makes no sense to doctor at one piece if all other aspects are left alone.

I don´t see much sense in a game where one party is almost excluded from getting killed without getting the lifelike punishment effects for it.

I can already see the threads: "You ruined CTF, DM and all competative maptypes BIS !!"

Quote[/b] ]Dragon Skin is the best body armor available today

Did I argue that ?

You have to learn that sometimes it´s not the quality of a product but it´s pricing that makes military buyers not choose it.

If you think that you always get the best piece of equipment in military, even the US military, your thinking is wrong.

You´ll always get the piece of equipment that fulfills military standards at the lowest price. That´s how it goes. Not mentioning the yearlong tests and contract negotiations that often make military equipment outdated the day the contract is signed.

It´s not unusual that military personel buy their own stuff, ranging from protective gear to firearms at the place of operation.

[dreday 1]

I think you should do YOUR homework. I have talked to returning servicemen who have defied the army ban on Dragon Skin, and theytell me that it weighs rougfhly the same (about 2 pounds over interceptor fully plated), yet is flexible and provides more area protection vs threats commonly faced in iraq. 42% of marines who died from isolated torso injuries died cuz they were wearing inferior equipment. Even a Dragon Skin SOV-2000 level III vest would have saved them. The people I have talked to wear the SOV-2000, cuz the Iraqi insurgents don't use heavy armor piercing incindiary rifles which would require a level IV Dragon Skin SOV-3000. If you want verification, I will gladly provide you their contact info and they will teach you why Dragon Skin is the silver bullet in terms of providing protection from small-arms in current combat situations faced by our troops today. However, before I provide you the info, you should go to youtube and view the Dragon Skin testing videos. their level III armor is that effective at stopping level III rounds (AK-47 standard issue bad guy weapon), and t heir level IV armor is just as effective at stopping level IV rounds.

Arma Damage models are flawed, 9 mm and level III rifle round sshould not be penetrating soldiers plates and coming out the other side of the soldiers body (through yet another plate....)

GuyGuy,

I was curious; do you know how much of the dent the Dragon Skin Vest leaves in the clay model after stooping the bullet? That's one thing that does not really show in the youtube promotional videos, but it is a crucial variable for the wellbeing of the soldiers in the field.

From what I understand, the US Army specifications require that the dent be no deeper than 3mm. Is that right?

Peace,

DreDay

[dreday 1]

Quote[/b] ]why body armor was not implemented for a game with "Modern Combat" in the title is beyond me.

Can you imagine a CTF with US units and northern sahrani units ?

Can you imagine why having one side with a huge advantage is maybe a bad idea for a game that has competative elements ?

Apart from that, if they raised the armor level, they would have to implement all "side effects" mean they have to add several types of injuries for units who get hit and do not instantly die, they have to add a speed punishment for the higher weight factor, they have to reduce endurance because of the weight factor and the heat factor and they have to invent "bleed to death" for hits in external limbs and have to add random shock and trauma effects.

It makes no sense to doctor at one piece if all other aspects are left alone.

I don´t see much sense in a game where one party is almost excluded from getting killed without getting the lifelike punishment effects for it.

I can already see the threads: "You ruined CTF, DM and all competative maptypes BIS !!"

Balschoiw,

I am not sure that I can agree with this. While I would certainly love for Arma to model all the elements that you mention; I don't think that it is absolutely necessary. I think that a simple simulation of body armor (by increasing the hit values for the torso ala OFP) would be sufficient to protect the soldiers from pistol and some rifle rounds.

Also, the game depicts SLA soldiers as wearing armored vests as well; so I don't think that there would be any issue of dis=balance.

Peace,

DreDay

[1436 1]

wow this thred Totaly got Hi-Jacked the ansers i wanted was no i dont want it becuse "youre ansers" or i do want it becuse =

This is a game a mil sim but all this talk about what armor can stop what is Rediculas the fact is that. thare is no body armor system the body armor system does works in games like Swat 4, all the Rainbow siries, Soldner, splinter cell. and shood be in ARMA.

And if it was Implmented it would be for both sides.

so people would not run around with MP5 thats what i mainly use fast fire and quiet.

[frederf 0]

I'm quite enjoying the Dragonskin vs Interceptor drama going on. It's an amusing distraction from the real issue at hand.

"The Interceptor is rubbish. Dragonskin is the way of the future but the idiots in the US DoD won't accept it!"

"Dragonskin is snake oil! Claims are over exaggerated and it fails army tests!"

"Body armor is useless in real life. Never stops any bullet!"

It's all very funny to watch.

[Razgovory 0]

I'm quite enjoying the Dragonskin vs Interceptor drama going on. It's an amusing distraction from the real issue at hand.

"The Interceptor is rubbish. Dragonskin is the way of the future but the idiots in the US DoD won't accept it!"

"Dragonskin is snake oil! Claims are over exaggerated and it fails army tests!"

"Body armor is useless in real life. Never stops any bullet!"

It's all very funny to watch.

I'm pretty new here and it just seems kinda strange. Especially Iroquois Pliskin who seems to have a chip on his shoulder. Adding body armor may be a good idea, but personally I'd rather BI fixed existing bugs and worked on balancing issues before adding in new features.

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

I'm quite enjoying the Dragonskin vs Interceptor drama going on. It's an amusing distraction from the real issue at hand.

"The Interceptor is rubbish. Dragonskin is the way of the future but the idiots in the US DoD won't accept it!"

"Dragonskin is snake oil! Claims are over exaggerated and it fails army tests!"

"Body armor is useless in real life. Never stops any bullet!"

It's all very funny to watch.

Yeah pretty much.

[Zorbtek 0]

In theorie Body armor looks good, in reality it leads to polytraumatic injuries, just preventing you from beeing chalked up as KIA.

Polytrauma Rehabilitation Program.

Not dragon skin, That frickin crap is scary.

I forget what I was watching, but they straped a dragon skin vest onto a dummy, shot a few bullets into it, none of them pierced through.

Then for good measure they laid the dummy with the vest ontop of a grenade and blew it up. STILL it didnt pierce through.

[Kay 0]

I forget what I was watching...

The OP's Video?